Episode 31

full
Published on:

22nd Sep 2026

Paul Braddock - Lead Designer and A11y Specialist @ ASDA

What does accessible retail really look like when the customer journey stretches from smartphone to supermarket aisle?

In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Joe is joined by Paul Braddock, Lead Designer and Accessibility Specialist at ASDA, to explore what accessibility means in retail and why creating inclusive experiences needs to extend far beyond websites and mobile apps.

Paul shares his journey from graphic design into UX and accessibility, beginning with a deceptively simple question: when organisations say they're designing for "everyone", who does that actually include? He discusses how that question shaped his approach to inclusive design and ultimately led to his work helping embed accessibility across digital experiences, customer journeys and the wider organisation.

We discuss whether the European Accessibility Act has genuinely changed conversations around accessibility, why regulation can be a useful catalyst but shouldn't be the end goal, and how retailers can move beyond compliance towards recognising accessibility as part of good customer experience and good business.

The conversation explores the increasingly blurred line between digital and physical accessibility, from online shopping and mobile experiences to stores, services and customer touchpoints. Paul explains why consistency matters, why accessibility needs to be considered throughout the entire journey, and how getting those moments right can help build trust and customer loyalty.

We also explore the role of AI in accessibility, including its potential to support designers, improve efficiency and prompt accessibility considerations earlier in the process. Paul explains why AI should be viewed as a tool and a bridge rather than a replacement for people, with customers, colleagues and lived experience remaining at the heart of inclusive design.

Finally, Paul shares his practical five Ps of inclusion; Procurement, Policy, Process, Practice and People – as a framework for organisations looking to embed accessibility more effectively and understand where to start.

Whether you're an accessibility specialist, designer, developer, product manager, retailer, customer experience professional or digital leader, this episode offers practical insight into moving accessibility beyond compliance and making inclusion part of how organisations design, operate and innovate.

Connect with Paul Braddock

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/braddockpaul/

Connect with Joe James

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/

Website: www.PCRDigital.co.uk

The Digital Accessibility Podcast: https://linktr.ee/thedigitalaccessibilitypodcast

Follow The Digital Accessibility Podcast

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/67GtTL7QI7i9ZdbTqPK49g?si=cbe79a7b518b4440

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-digital-accessibility-podcast/id1689400288

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PCRDigital

Transcript
Speaker:

Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.

2

:

If you're looking to learn more about the field of

3

:

accessibility,

4

:

how to implement it within your role or your company,

5

:

or to get advice on where to start or see how others have

6

:

navigated complex issues that you may find along the way,

7

:

then you're in the right place.

8

:

I'm honored to be able to share these insightful chats with

9

:

thought leaders, advocates,

10

:

and practitioners of digital accessibility throughout this

11

:

podcast, and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.

12

:

As always, thank you so much for listening,

13

:

and I hope you enjoy the chat.

14

:

Today's guest is someone who spent years helping make

15

:

retail more accessible, both online and in store.

16

:

I'm delighted to be joined by Paul Braddock,

17

:

a lead designer and accessibility specialist at Asda.

18

:

Paul's worked across user experience, service design,

19

:

and accessibility,

20

:

helping to shape experiences that millions of customers

21

:

interact with every single day, every single week.

22

:

With the European Accessibility Act now in force and

23

:

accessibility becoming increasingly important conversation

24

:

across retail and e-commerce, there's no one better,

25

:

in my opinion, to explore what this means in practice.

26

:

So we're gonna discuss accessibility in retail,

27

:

whether boardroom discussions are changing,

28

:

how physical and digital accessibility complement one

29

:

another,

30

:

and why accessible design is ultimately just good business,

31

:

really.

32

:

So welcome to the podcast, Paul.

33

:

Oh, that's very kind of you.

34

:

Thank you very much.

35

:

Real privilege and, and honor to be asked on this podcast.

36

:

It's, yeah, it's helped me on my own accessibility journey.

37

:

So yeah, great, great honor to, to, to be asked.

38

:

Thank you.

39

:

Oh, well, I'm delighted to have you, and,

40

:

I'm sure everyone listening will,

41

:

appreciate you just as much.

42

:

So thank you for that.

43

:

But great.

44

:

So I guess before we dive into the world of retail,

45

:

we usually start with our guest's story.

46

:

So accessibility isn't always, I guess,

47

:

top of the list for people coming out of school and

48

:

university.

49

:

So how did your journey,

50

:

in your working life or even before that lead you into

51

:

accessibility,

52

:

and what keeps you passionate about it today?

53

:

So yeah, I often describe myself as the dyslexic designer.

54

:

, I got a degree in graphic design, transitioned into,

55

:

into UX design, and at my time at Co-op Insurance,

56

:

we as a team were developing our mission statement,

57

:

I think it may have been, and the word everyone came in,

58

:

and what, what do we mean by everyone?

59

:

So that really got me thinking.

60

:

so that...

61

:

Did a bit of digging and looking into accessibility

62

:

specifically, of how we can meet the needs of our customers,

63

:

and their expectations and things like that.

64

:

and that got me down in...

65

:

That got me onto the path of accessibility.

66

:

I reached out to, different charity partners to,

67

:

to help us with user research, and then that,

68

:

that kind of...

69

:

That took its course really.

70

:

,

71

:

Co-op Insurance at the time had just launched a new product,

72

:

so it was ideal to get them involved in the usability

73

:

study.

74

:

And, the, the Co-op, Co-op Digital was, was forming at,

75

:

at the same time.

76

:

,

77

:

and so at that kind of project really was a bit of a case study

78

:

of, how can we, how could we grow,

79

:

how can we do more and do better when it comes to

80

:

accessibility.

81

:

, and so, I helped form the accessibility champions, with,

82

:

with another colleague, Da Dave Cunningham.

83

:

and that got the ball rolling.

84

:

, accessibility standards were created.

85

:

Accessibility spot policy was created.

86

:

accessibility training, awareness training, and that,

87

:

that really grew and grew.

88

:

And tried to embed that into the,

89

:

the whole design and development, process.

90

:

for, for me personally, I'm a Christian,

91

:

so at the same time I was seeking my own purpose.

92

:

, but the...

93

:

I found, that my answers to, to prayer, if you will,

94

:

was part of, this was part of it,

95

:

that passion to serve others,

96

:

and make a positive impact for,

97

:

for customers and colleagues.

98

:

so I moved on from Co-op.

99

:

, I found myself at,

100

:

at Asda and funny enough on my first day,

101

:

I think it may have been the head of design, said, "Oh,

102

:

I'm preparing this presentation to share with the,

103

:

director about accessibility.

104

:

It'd be great for you to cast your eye over." and,

105

:

lo and behold,

106

:

I ended up writing the whole presentation and,

107

:

got asked to, to lead on accessibility, from a,

108

:

a digital perspective.

109

:

and so I ended up forming the Digital Accessibility Network

110

:

at Asda.

111

:

and then that passion continued, to evolve and grow,

112

:

and I got recommended to be put forward for the colleague

113

:

advisory panel, representing the accessibility network.

114

:

so yeah, it's really grown, I would say, from that initial,

115

:

what do we mean by everyone, that initial question.

116

:

And yeah, since my time at Asda, it's, it's just,

117

:

grown and grown.

118

:

what was initially digital accessibility, is now more,

119

:

so much wider.

120

:

It's, including colleagues,

121

:

and day to day it's including customers,

122

:

not just at their touch points, but yeah,

123

:

in-store technology, various things.

124

:

Yeah.

125

:

Amazing.

126

:

And that connection I've picked up on that you made there

127

:

around the sort of your religion and, and the values,

128

:

like the fundamental values you have there,

129

:

and I guess seeking a vocation.

130

:

I've grown up in a Catholic household as well,

131

:

so I'm sort of...

132

:

I understand that sort of Ideology.

133

:

But it's really interesting 'cause at times I've found

134

:

myself thinking, what, what is it in me?

135

:

What's been sort of...

136

:

What's innate within me the, the,

137

:

the desire to work in serving others,

138

:

and helping as much as I can?

139

:

And I always just say I'm a bit of an empath and someone

140

:

that just wants to help people.

141

:

But that sort of deeper meaning I think is,

142

:

is a really interesting one as well, so thanks for sharing!

143

:

And also when you said you found yourself at Asda,

144

:

I thought you meant you just sort of wandered in..

145

:

to buy the groceries, but, no, that's amazing.

146

:

well, they're lucky to have you.

147

:

it sounds like you've obviously made...

148

:

You made a, an instant impact when,

149

:

when your manager was trying to write a presentation

150

:

and, hopefully Yeah ...

151

:

may see improvements on it.

152

:

Hopefully, yeah.

153

:

but awesome.

154

:

So European Accessibility Act, EAA, is...

155

:

I guess it's kind of dominated accessibility discussions

156

:

here and there over the last year.

157

:

I guess in recent months I've heard less of it,

158

:

but that's my perspective.

159

:

But from your side, inside a major retailer, has it, like,

160

:

genuinely changed conversations that you,

161

:

you're hearing happening or having yourself with senior

162

:

leadership in boardrooms?

163

:

Or,

164

:

has it started to build on the conversations that you were

165

:

already sort of having?

166

:

Yeah.

167

:

So certainly people are more aware of it,

168

:

certainly when there's press coverage, I suppose,

169

:

around it.

170

:

but yeah, say,

171

:

say in the last 12 months people have been more aware and

172

:

asking those questions,

173

:

highlighting what's been happening off the,

174

:

off the back of it, like the French,

175

:

in France where the legal cases,

176

:

so paying a bit more attention of what...

177

:

How does...

178

:

What does that mean for us,

179

:

and how does that impact us day to day?

180

:

So we hear people, are asking,

181

:

how does that impact us as a, as a business?

182

:

How does it impact that me as a...

183

:

In my job, in my role, and what can I do?

184

:

so yeah, it's, it's opened doors and conversations.

185

:

,

186

:

so obviously the European Accessibility Act doesn't directly

187

:

impact us in the UK unless we, trade in the EU,

188

:

but it has certainly been a, a catalyst for conversations.

189

:

, and, from an Asda perspective,

190

:

George does trade in the EU, so does, George International.

191

:

So it's, it's a great example for us to, to, to look at.

192

:

, and yeah, when, when it, when I joined,

193

:

it wasn't in a great place.

194

:

it's not, but we've been made some real progress,

195

:

over recent years, because when you...

196

:

Of the European Accessibility.

197

:

So it has helped, in that regard, but also for the better,

198

:

like the can see, can start to see the measuring the impact,

199

:

that that's having, through,

200

:

not just through the efficiency of the, of the team,

201

:

but also the impact of the customer as well.

202

:

, so it's, yeah, it's a great case study for, for the,

203

:

for the rest of the business to, to learn from,

204

:

as a end-to-end process.

205

:

, and then, yeah, as I say,

206

:

the benefits that you see from customers, colleagues, and,

207

:

and as a business, we're, yeah.

208

:

Yeah.

209

:

I think it's, it's an interesting one.

210

:

A lot of people are ending up thinking of, you know,

211

:

great regulations coming in across Europe.

212

:

It's, it's huge.

213

:

We should surely be following suit in the UK.

214

:

But like you say, if we're trading with EU partners or,

215

:

or in the EU in any way,

216

:

then it does impact our businesses.

217

:

But it's, ...

218

:

Some people are seeing it as either a,

219

:

a carrot or stick approach as well.

220

:

Like, is it gonna,

221

:

entice people to think more broadly around accessibility

222

:

and,

223

:

and improve their products to make them inclusive for everyone?

224

:

There's that word again, everyone.

225

:

I'll underline that.

226

:

Mm-hmm.

227

:

and then, ...

228

:

Or is it through fear?

229

:

You know, you're saying,

230

:

"You're gonna get fined." Especially there were,

231

:

there was talks around the, the,

232

:

the regulations in Ireland saying that it could be an

233

:

ultimate penalty of prison, imprisonment.

234

:

, and then thinking, "Well,

235

:

who's responsible?" No one's gonna want the head of

236

:

accessibility title in Ireland anymore.

237

:

So- ...

238

:

it's, it is very interesting.

239

:

But even just on sort of taking it as face value and going,

240

:

"Well, this is...

241

:

You know, we've got case studies now.

242

:

Learn from others' mistakes and..." Yeah, that's a, a,

243

:

a good sort of, measure to, to use, I suppose.

244

:

Yeah.

245

:

It...

246

:

Well, that's one of the questions that people do ask.

247

:

Like, it's, EU law,

248

:

so does that mean that it's gonna come into UK law?

249

:

and so then that conversation turns to the Equality Act.

250

:

So just, as a refresher and reminder, that, yeah,

251

:

that that's still the case in, in, in the UK,

252

:

in regards to accessibility.

253

:

It just...

254

:

You don't necessarily get, the,

255

:

the large fines and maybe the media coverage that, that,

256

:

that you would Yeah ...

257

:

with the European Accessibility Act.

258

:

But I mean...

259

:

yeah, the, the carrot, the carrot and the,

260

:

the stick is a great, great way to kind of frame it.

261

:

I do prefer the, the carrot than the stick.

262

:

I think the, you...

263

:

With the stick element you can have a bit...

264

:

I like the bit of fun that, you,

265

:

you sometimes see with RNIB.

266

:

,

267

:

they brought out of their league table recently for Premier

268

:

League as the football season starts.

269

:

Yeah.

270

:

, Alttex, and how, like that,

271

:

that approach so that helps that conversation and then it's

272

:

a bit more, encouraging to try and embed it whereas a more,

273

:

more, more compliant than the, the stick.

274

:

because obviously it impacts, impacts everyone.

275

:

And, and you see some great examples out there,

276

:

like Skyscanner and how they've just totally embedded it in

277

:

their whole proposition.

278

:

Yeah.

279

:

So, yeah.

280

:

I think it is starting to push further left,

281

:

so a lot of people talking about accessibility by design,

282

:

and then Mm ...

283

:

I think pushing it into the product space.

284

:

So those product discussions before the designers have

285

:

even, you know, put pen to paper.

286

:

I know that's very traditional, but actually sort of start,

287

:

starting to put anything together,

288

:

those product discussions are where it really starts,

289

:

isn't it?

290

:

It's sort of who are, what are the, into the, the KYCs,

291

:

know your customers and,

292

:

and sort of making sure that you're understanding that

293

:

you're designing something or putting something together

294

:

that is gonna impact a, a very broad landscape of people,

295

:

I suppose so.

296

:

But I loved the, the RNIB's Premier League table.

297

:

What I didn't love was that it was just,

298

:

I think it was Manchester United had some alt text on their

299

:

social media pictures, and no other...

300

:

There were no other points scored across the whole of the

301

:

Premier League ...

302

:

which is, yeah, a great way to, to showcase,

303

:

but what a shame.

304

:

Not, not a great way to kick off the season.

305

:

No, it's not.

306

:

But hopefully we'll see that improve as well as it goes on.

307

:

Yeah.

308

:

Yeah.

309

:

amazing.

310

:

And then, so we've touched on, a few bits already,

311

:

but in terms of retail in particular,

312

:

so I know you came from Co-op Insurance, now at Asda,

313

:

but I think when a lot of people talk about accessibility,

314

:

they think about government services, public sector, health,

315

:

sort of access to sort of the, the digital health,

316

:

either results or booking appointments and things like

317

:

that.

318

:

For some, it seems to be coupled with,

319

:

with that side of things.

320

:

But retail and e-commerce are arguably where more people,

321

:

interact with digital products, especially now.

322

:

You know, there's online shopping and things,

323

:

managing their deliveries, buying products,

324

:

and then that could feed into medications and genuine

325

:

lifeline purchases as well.

326

:

So is that the element of why accessibility's so important

327

:

in retail?

328

:

Or what, I guess what would...

329

:

what's the impact of, of getting it right?

330

:

So if Yeah ...

331

:

you look at it from a positive There were so many,

332

:

so many to, so many, products and services that you...

333

:

certainly from a retail perspective that try to,

334

:

meet the market,

335

:

because Asda fundamentally is more than just a

336

:

supermarket.

337

:

,

338

:

you mentioned probably a nber of products that we offer there,

339

:

you got pharmacy, mobile money, insurance, loans,

340

:

gift cards.

341

:

Asda tires, would you believe?

342

:

, so there's, the whole range,

343

:

of different products and services that, that Asda offer.

344

:

, and it's vital that,

345

:

with anyone in reality retail that we're,

346

:

we're meeting the customer needs at, at every touch point.

347

:

and certainly those who are most vulnerable.

348

:

We see that,

349

:

saw that in the pandemic where everyone was dependent on,

350

:

retail and e-commerce and delivery, and that,

351

:

that's not changed for a lot of people.

352

:

Many people can't get into, into store to purchase their,

353

:

what they need or collect their medication.

354

:

It's,

355

:

and those are most vulnerable people in society that we,

356

:

we need to meet the needs of.

357

:

So yeah, it's, it's a, a big job to, to meet the needs of,

358

:

of those people, but it's, it's the end-to-end journey,

359

:

grocery shopper, to, yeah, to buying insurance online.

360

:

,

361

:

and it's just vital that we meet the customer needs at every,

362

:

at every touch point.

363

:

so yeah, there's, there's so many opportunities.

364

:

It,

365

:

it could be for a neurodivergent customer who struggles to

366

:

remember their shopping list,

367

:

whether that's online or in store, to a,

368

:

a frail widow living in an apartment block who,

369

:

who just can't collect, their shopping or,

370

:

or get their delivery, in, into where, where they need it.

371

:

So yeah, if, if we meet the, the needs,

372

:

user needs at each touch point or, or moment of truth,

373

:

then that's where you find your most loyal customers.

374

:

, and I suppose that is the challenge, of,

375

:

of getting everyone on the same page and,

376

:

and moving consistently together, in that regard.

377

:

That customer loyalty,

378

:

especially in retail with so many competitors,

379

:

you're constantly seeing adverts about competing on price.

380

:

I'm just wondering if...

381

:

there's ever gonna be a, an advert to say, you know,

382

:

"We pride our,

383

:

pride ourselves on being the most accessible," Yeah ...

384

:

grocers, grocers or, or supermarkets, you know?

385

:

And, but on the positive side of the impact as well,

386

:

I guess it is in line with the loyalty side of things,

387

:

but one of your competitors,

388

:

I won't name them just for marketing reasons, I guess,

389

:

I don't wanna get in any trouble with your bosses.

390

:

,

391

:

they reported that when they had digitally transformed and

392

:

pushed a lot of their online shopping,

393

:

improved the accessibility of their online shopping

394

:

through their mobile application,

395

:

they saw a huge amount of growth.

396

:

So I know that that's...

397

:

Sometimes in accessibility it's like the dirty word is

398

:

like, "Oh,

399

:

you make more money off of people 'cause you've got a

400

:

wider, a,

401

:

a market or a wider audience." But actually that inclusion

402

:

is just showing that.

403

:

You're, you're serving everyone.

404

:

Everyone's able to,

405

:

to spend their money with you and they're gonna keep coming

406

:

back if they can.

407

:

So, there is real, real business benefit,

408

:

to accessibility as well, isn't there?

409

:

Yeah.

410

:

There is, yeah.

411

:

And, and you mentioned there about, about promoting price.

412

:

Obviously the price is king, or queen at, at, in retail.

413

:

But then you look at, other retail movement, fair trade,

414

:

so a lot of that,

415

:

that was done very little by very few at the start.

416

:

We see that the fair trade movement and it and like the

417

:

Purple Pound is probably something very similar,

418

:

in that regard.

419

:

But you,

420

:

you can see how the fair trade from a retail perspective

421

:

has, has developed and improved through the supply chain.

422

:

, it'd be great, as you say, to,

423

:

to see that from a accessibility inclusive perspective,

424

:

with, with the likes of Purple Pound to really drive that,

425

:

further on.

426

:

So yeah.

427

:

But baby steps, I think to...

428

:

But as long as we're making, making those inroads, that,

429

:

that's all positive.

430

:

For sure.

431

:

Again, I don't wanna get in trouble with branding,

432

:

but maybe Asda's colors will start to change to purple.

433

:

Who knows?

434

:

Who knows?

435

:

brilliant.

436

:

I'm glad we got Asda price in there somewhere.

437

:

I was just hoping to.

438

:

Oh, yeah.

439

:

always remember that, but, but great.

440

:

So, again,

441

:

so the European Accessibility Act is not just about the

442

:

digital side of accessibility.

443

:

And again, like you, like you've mentioned,

444

:

we still have the Equality Acts,

445

:

there's still the ISO standards as well when it comes to

446

:

accessibility.

447

:

But, I think with your role,

448

:

what really gets me thinking from an outsider perspective

449

:

is that accessibility isn't just about...

450

:

It's not stopping at the website, is it?

451

:

'Cause you're having to sort of do the,

452

:

the service or the interaction design, I suppose.

453

:

so that'll extend to your physical stores.

454

:

But how closely is that linked, I guess,

455

:

within your role or your, your teams?

456

:

Is it sort of...

457

:

Is it molded together?

458

:

,

459

:

and can you ever really sort of deliver an accessible experience

460

:

if you're just focusing on digital?

461

:

Or does it have to sort of feed into the physical side of

462

:

things as well?

463

:

Oh, yeah.

464

:

That, that was...

465

:

I found that quite overwhelming when I first joined.

466

:

but yeah, because I've not worked in that space before.

467

:

But yeah,

468

:

every customer touch point we kind of question how,

469

:

how might we make this accessible for everyone.

470

:

So yeah, more than ever before,

471

:

I'd say both physical and digital,

472

:

are overlapping when it comes to, to retail.

473

:

And that...

474

:

There's that customer expectation there as well,

475

:

of a consistent and kind of coherent experience,

476

:

of what they experience online then they should experience

477

:

the same, in store.

478

:

Certainly when it comes to accessibility we know that those,

479

:

who are, have a, a coherent and consistent experience,

480

:

simplistic,

481

:

that they move then they are gonna be more loyal to,

482

:

to that, to that experience, to that, business.

483

:

So yeah, it's trying to retain that, when it comes to,

484

:

to in store, and I think that is the challenge,

485

:

that we all have and certainly the,

486

:

the leaders in the business have, is how,

487

:

how do we give customers clarity at the same time whilst

488

:

providing a consistent and kind of coherent experience

489

:

across all these multiple touch points for all these

490

:

multiple products and services that, that,

491

:

that we're offering.

492

:

So yeah, it, it can be pretty overwhelming when, ...

493

:

But like any kind of design problem,

494

:

you have to evaluate and prioritize, and yeah,

495

:

and kind of take it from there.

496

:

But being,

497

:

being able to measure and capture customer verbatim,

498

:

across both areas I, I just find fascinating.

499

:

It open, opens your mind of probably what you've not,

500

:

not considered and, and not thought of during that initial,

501

:

through, I suppose, the design process,

502

:

or what you might not have captured through user research

503

:

either.

504

:

But, so those little golden nuggets, are the,

505

:

are the valuable pieces I'd say.

506

:

and yeah, that customer expectation would...

507

:

remains the same, across the portfolio.

508

:

So it's, yeah,

509

:

making sure that every customer touch point is, is,

510

:

is considered, from an accessibility inclusive perspective.

511

:

It's not just how does it work,

512

:

but the content side of things as well.

513

:

content is so critical to,

514

:

to providing that clarity for the customer,

515

:

and make it clear, writing in clear and plain English.

516

:

So yeah, it's, it's certainly, certainly challenging,

517

:

because of you've got different environments to consider

518

:

and take care of as well.

519

:

So Yeah ...

520

:

yeah, it's, it's...

521

:

Yeah.

522

:

So It's good.

523

:

It's good.

524

:

It's a challenge, but it's exciting.

525

:

That's where all the fun happens, right?

526

:

Yeah, for sure.

527

:

And then,

528

:

but there's the crossover I suppose of the physical and the

529

:

digital with, I need to make sure I'm getting this right.

530

:

So the, the in-store scanning, So Yeah ...

531

:

the Smart Shop stuff,

532

:

what's displayed on there from recent experience is very

533

:

similar to the online shopping experience.

534

:

So I'm assing it's sort of a responsive design thing where

535

:

that online, I guess, website for, for Asda groceries is,

536

:

is basically reflected in, in the,

537

:

the sort of handheld device as well, where, where possible,

538

:

and keeping it consistent.

539

:

But it's, Yeah,

540

:

it's really interesting because I think you could end up

541

:

putting all of your, eggs in one basket.

542

:

I'm using all of these analogies now.

543

:

I'm gonna try and make them all food related.

544

:

put all of your eggs in one basket, at Asda.

545

:

but you could be giving with one hand and taking with the

546

:

other.

547

:

So, and I know through...

548

:

I was,

549

:

doing a talk at a uni last week and someone came up to me

550

:

and said that they,

551

:

they enjoyed the talk about digital accessibility,

552

:

but their,

553

:

their experience and their passion is in the physical

554

:

accessibility space,

555

:

so in terms of building regulations and things.

556

:

And one of the...

557

:

I'm gonna quote it completely wrong,

558

:

but one of the things was that you can't have a separate,

559

:

a separate point of access or a separate...

560

:

So if they had stairs and they wanted to create a ramp,

561

:

they can't have people not entering through the main

562

:

entrance of a building and creating a ramp that goes around

563

:

the back of the building 'cause it's like a segregation

564

:

type thing, isn't it?

565

:

So...

566

:

it needs to be equal and fair.

567

:

And I think that having, like, the kiosk side of things and,

568

:

yeah,

569

:

it's just interesting in the retail spaces and just thinking

570

:

if you, ...

571

:

You, you can't just put everyone into one area and go,

572

:

"You go do your shopping here 'cause this is the accessible

573

:

part." It has to just...

574

:

And once it works for everyone, that's, that's everyone,

575

:

right?

576

:

So.

577

:

Yeah.

578

:

Yeah.

579

:

Yeah.

580

:

Exactly, yeah.

581

:

Yeah.

582

:

Yeah.

583

:

Don't wanna, don't wanna separate anyone.

584

:

It keeps coming back to everyone, doesn't it?

585

:

Yeah, it does.

586

:

And they, I mean, I think in...

587

:

Sometimes it's, it's pushing for inclusion,

588

:

but then at the same time you could exclude people.

589

:

Like, Yeah ...

590

:

unknowingly exclude people because you're purely...

591

:

'Cause then you're going way too far the other direction.

592

:

It's just, like,

593

:

make it right from the start and consider all those people.

594

:

but you...

595

:

Yeah, you could end up...

596

:

You could risk sort of splitting yourself, I, I suppose,

597

:

and then creating exclusion in different, different ways.

598

:

Yeah, definitely.

599

:

Yeah.

600

:

I think you just have to be,

601

:

when it comes to certain elements of the experience, yeah,

602

:

who, who,

603

:

who you're trying to cater for here and making sure...

604

:

'Cause you probably will exclude some people in some

605

:

instances, but it's just making sure that everyone is, is,

606

:

is catered for and you've considered,

607

:

the different types of people's needs, and,

608

:

and behaviors I suppose.

609

:

Yeah.

610

:

When it comes to, to designing and delivering,

611

:

those products or services,

612

:

and the experiences that come with it.

613

:

Yeah, for sure.

614

:

Amazing.

615

:

I mean, I,

616

:

I could just talk to you all day about this sort of stuff.

617

:

So, I'll try and keep to the questions that I,

618

:

posed to you before.

619

:

Yeah.

620

:

Okay.

621

:

Recording.

622

:

But, brilliant.

623

:

So, I think I've already kind of touched on this,

624

:

so the compliance side versus having a competitive

625

:

advantage.

626

:

so a lot of the quotes I hear is,

627

:

"We need to become more compliant.

628

:

We need to comply with regulations." It's a legal thing.

629

:

It's a financial thing at times.

630

:

But I'd like to see that mindset shift to,

631

:

not just it's the right thing, but, you know,

632

:

we're creating, ...

633

:

Probably just I'm gonna risk asking you to repeat yourself

634

:

really 'cause it's, it's,

635

:

it's about just thinking about everyone and designing it

636

:

right from the start.

637

:

But,

638

:

do you think accessibility's beginning to be a bit more

639

:

recognized as something that improves overall customer

640

:

experience?

641

:

It...

642

:

And it's building that loyalty and makes commercial sense

643

:

rather than it's a,

644

:

it's something separate that has to be done for...

645

:

Like, it's, it's...

646

:

I hate the potential of othering people with accessibility.

647

:

yeah.

648

:

From, from a industry, like, observing the industry,

649

:

it does feel like it is, you know, going,

650

:

obviously going in a positive direction.

651

:

We've seen a lot more job adverts out there for

652

:

accessibility roles.

653

:

you see in the communities, meetups,

654

:

they feel like there's a lot more happening in that space

655

:

and a lot more attendees.

656

:

, so from, from the outside, like, perspective, it,

657

:

it does feel like that is, the way...

658

:

Whether that's the same case, within the,

659

:

the businesses with input in response to hiring more,

660

:

those, those roles.

661

:

Have they,

662

:

make sure they are compliant are and they're being hired

663

:

to be competitive.

664

:

so yeah, it comes back to that carrot-and-stick approach,

665

:

doesn't it?

666

:

To be inclusive, to remove those barriers,

667

:

from a wider design industry perspective,

668

:

like prioritizing and making those positive change to make

669

:

sure that accessibility is not just a buzzword,

670

:

but actually we're embedding it into everything that we do.

671

:

At each kind of, at each point in that design process,

672

:

at each decision, point in the, in the roles that, those,

673

:

considerations are, are happening.

674

:

So it comes back, for me it comes back to education,

675

:

whatever level you are.

676

:

people just, from my experience so far,

677

:

kind of learning a lot of my accessibility knowledge has

678

:

come from learning on the job as a designer.

679

:

I've got no qualifications from accessibility and from,

680

:

from me as a designer.

681

:

So,

682

:

everything that I've kind of picked up I've I found through,

683

:

just talking to people, through delivering, like,

684

:

training sessions with them, being, like, hands-on in,

685

:

within the work.

686

:

and from that perspective,

687

:

people just don't know what they don't know.

688

:

businesses will naturally be concerned about legal and

689

:

reputational risk, which can be seen as a cost.

690

:

but yeah, that,

691

:

that obviously in my opinion is the wrong way to,

692

:

to look at accessibility.

693

:

So for me, it's to make those resources,

694

:

available to colleagues to make sure that they can do the

695

:

best they can do,

696

:

when it comes to accessibility within their,

697

:

their own role.

698

:

and making the people aware that the job,

699

:

when it comes to that sort of saying,

700

:

that the job was never done, you were just cutting corners.

701

:

So yeah, that kind of adoption certainly comes from a,

702

:

from that personal perspective.

703

:

someone that they know, you find that,

704

:

find that accessibility really hits home, and that,

705

:

that competitiveness,

706

:

of we've got to get this right certainly grows it from,

707

:

from that, those experiences.

708

:

but then the question is how, how do we make the impact,

709

:

for people day to day?

710

:

And, and yeah, as I say from my experience,

711

:

people don't know where, really where to start.

712

:

so, developing a learning journey to help them on that way,

713

:

providing that job or guidance,

714

:

making it relatable to them as an individual, but also as,

715

:

as teams.

716

:

and to make it achievable as well.

717

:

You can by slowly but surely by making those inroads within

718

:

for the colleague's perspective and the team's perspective,

719

:

then it'll have a more wider impact on the output from,

720

:

from a business perspective.

721

:

So yeah.

722

:

It, it's,

723

:

it's kind of taking it that bit step further back into

724

:

individual roles to then all, the overarching,

725

:

of trying to...

726

:

Yeah, that's how we become more competitive,

727

:

rather than being, necessarily being compliant,

728

:

because you're including it in everyone's role and

729

:

everyone as a, each team.

730

:

Yeah.

731

:

I think spreading the responsibility across helps with not

732

:

spreading accessibility specialists too thinly.

733

:

'Cause I know that it's Yeah ...

734

:

a side of desk thing at the moment for you as well.

735

:

So it's, there's always the risk of burnout and, you know,

736

:

the impact on your own sort of health and, and sort of,

737

:

your role anyway, you know?

738

:

You can only do so much within the day,

739

:

but spreading that awareness and then responsibility,

740

:

knowing that everyone can make an impact.

741

:

but that's really interesting that you're saying.

742

:

Obviously, like you say,

743

:

a lot of businesses just don't know really where to start,

744

:

and Mm-hmm ...

745

:

that really speaks.

746

:

I can, yeah,

747

:

attest to that because there's a lot of times where I will

748

:

be pitching to companies saying, "Would you, do, you know,

749

:

are you considering accessibility in the hires that you're

750

:

making?" And they might not know what I'm talking about.

751

:

So then I end up trying to, well,

752

:

I end up doing a free talk or a workshop for them just to

753

:

sort of get them in,

754

:

in the know and then it would be a consideration.

755

:

But it's, it, it,

756

:

that also gives an opportunity for innovation.

757

:

You know,

758

:

every company's trying to look at how can we beat our

759

:

competition?

760

:

How can we innovate and sort of do the next thing?

761

:

So it gives that challenge,

762

:

which I think a lot of employees, a lot of people with,

763

:

especially within the design space, you know, that,

764

:

that challenge to create something that hasn't been done

765

:

before or isn't currently being done, you know,

766

:

moving things forward, moving the dial a bit.

767

:

I think that it should excite people rather than sort of

768

:

the, again, the stick or the,

769

:

you've done this wrong or we're not compliant because a

770

:

lot of people will look at compliance and regulation and

771

:

think it's boring, right?

772

:

But I don't think accessibility's boring in any way.

773

:

I think it really opens new things,

774

:

new perspectives and things as well.

775

:

Yes, definitely, yeah.

776

:

Yeah, you got,

777

:

just referring back to what you were saying there about

778

:

side of desk and getting people's,

779

:

involved from a job role and individual perspective is,

780

:

yeah,

781

:

trying to identify those advocates and champions around the

782

:

business, is certainly a challenge from my perspective of,

783

:

who could, like, help drive this further,

784

:

who can really advocate for it,

785

:

who's really championing it and being that voice, for the,

786

:

for the customer or, or in,

787

:

in most cases also the colleague.

788

:

being a, a large employee base, that's another kind of,

789

:

challenge as well to make sure that the technology that

790

:

they, they are using day to day is accessible, as well.

791

:

But yeah, from an innovative perspective, it needs,

792

:

it needs be considered, on the same level of, like,

793

:

cybersecurity, when,

794

:

when you look at accessibility because it has so much

795

:

benefit.

796

:

and then, yeah,

797

:

the whole business case around accessibility, is, for me,

798

:

it's kind of the same level as that.

799

:

It's, it's a serious consideration,

800

:

to help drive the business forward,

801

:

from an in-innovative perspective Yeah, for sure.

802

:

I just had a quick thought and I was like, "Well,

803

:

actually that might land you in hot water,"

804

:

but maybe there's a way to rage bait people internally at

805

:

Apple, Apple Asda where you can just say, you know,

806

:

put something that's got really terrible contrast and be

807

:

like, "Can you read this?" Or,

808

:

"Can you make this better?" And people will be like,

809

:

"I couldn't, I couldn't even I couldn't even read what the,

810

:

the, the leaflet or the..

811

:

the internal communication said." But maybe that's actually

812

:

then, if you're purposefully making things inaccessible,

813

:

maybe that's not the right thing to do.

814

:

But it might get people to go,

815

:

"I can make this better." And then, you know, well,

816

:

there you go, you're designing for accessibility.

817

:

so.

818

:

Yeah.

819

:

But amazing.

820

:

So AI, let's, let's talk about it.

821

:

We can't,

822

:

we can't really have any conversation these days without

823

:

talking about AI.

824

:

so,

825

:

do you see AI or is it currently helping retailers improve

826

:

accessibility or would you say that there's risk for that

827

:

to actually, impact it negatively,

828

:

in terms of sort of implementation within your own role,

829

:

what designers are sort of using, the types of tools,

830

:

or even sort of customers themselves as well?

831

:

Are there any sort of risks that you think we need to be

832

:

aware of?

833

:

Yeah, there's, there's so much opportunity in retail space,

834

:

that can make such a huge impact, certainly in retail ops,

835

:

for, for AI to have, an impact and, and benefit.

836

:

and then even from the customer perspective as well,

837

:

like we talked about in store,

838

:

like whether that's navigation or providing clear product

839

:

details.

840

:

so yeah, it, it...

841

:

I think everyone is probably in that area where we're just

842

:

trying to find the feet when it comes to AI and what's the

843

:

right approach, from, from the,

844

:

as an organization's perspective and how,

845

:

how do we use this ethically and responsibly.

846

:

but it is such a, a powerful tool.

847

:

It, it certainly has its place and it should not be,

848

:

I suppose,

849

:

not to be over-reliant over it and to remember that it,

850

:

who it's all about, and to include, everyone in,

851

:

in that process, be that customers or, or colleagues.

852

:

but yeah,

853

:

I think it was one of your previous podcasts with Lucy

854

:

Collins, she mentioned about, support,

855

:

like when it comes to ways of working and how AI is,

856

:

can be so effective and efficient way of helping that

857

:

ideation process,

858

:

but also capturing those accessibility considerations,

859

:

that's may, you may not, may not be aware of, at that,

860

:

at that point.

861

:

So yeah, it's a, it's a vital and useful tool to, to use.

862

:

and,

863

:

but also be mindful that we're trying to keep people at

864

:

the, at the heart of, of everything that we do.

865

:

because yeah, certainly from an AI perspective, I'm not,

866

:

I'm, I'm not that clued up on it,

867

:

but I don't think it can predict like emotions.

868

:

and that's obviously a major factor in like the customer

869

:

experience and purchase behavior, when it comes to, retail.

870

:

but yeah, it, for me,

871

:

it shouldn't replace people because they're,

872

:

they're the heart of everything that we do.

873

:

but it's a, a great tool to support them and,

874

:

and a great tool to support us as, as designers and,

875

:

and other practitioners at every stage of,

876

:

of that process.

877

:

Yeah, for sure.

878

:

I think that she kept sort of referring back to it as being

879

:

a bridge, really rather than Yeah ...

880

:

sort of a replacement as well.

881

:

Just sort of like a, it's,

882

:

it's helping people step into that and you might not have

883

:

access to a,

884

:

a group of user researchers or disabled users that you can

885

:

sort of ask directly, but it will give you...

886

:

Or even just implementing that so it's like a quick check,

887

:

but it's not checked off as that's done.

888

:

You still need to include the people further down the line

889

:

or, or, or just after that.

890

:

But at least it gets people thinking,

891

:

and having sort of personas and,

892

:

and different sort of user types as well.

893

:

So it's, hopefully like a, using it as a,

894

:

just another tool, I guess, in the,

895

:

in the tool belt to say, "Right, we can,

896

:

we can get things moving a bit quicker without having to

897

:

set up a full sort of group or, or, you know,

898

:

invite people in,"

899

:

and then you need an accessible space as well.

900

:

So it's, ...

901

:

I found it fascinating and I think there's definitely

902

:

potential.

903

:

I've got some friends that are musicians and initially when

904

:

people started to post like AI music or AI lyrics or

905

:

whatever it might have been, they were just so,

906

:

so against it and thinking, "Oh, it's not the same.

907

:

It doesn't have han emotion, doesn't you know,

908

:

it doesn't understand.

909

:

It's just trained on certain things...

910

:

and language and..." But now I'm gonna out them,

911

:

and not by name,

912

:

but they've started to sort of put their ideas where they

913

:

can't quite get the lyrics where they want them to be,

914

:

put that into AI and it will structure it a bit better so

915

:

it'll give them the bridge, the chorus,

916

:

the verses and everything, and then they can.

917

:

Oh, wow.

918

:

It's kind of just...

919

:

It's more inspiration.

920

:

So I think that if we can inspire accessibility through the

921

:

use of AI rather than try and fix it because it.

922

:

Yeah ...

923

:

wouldn't be completely done,

924

:

but using it as an inspiration, I think that that,

925

:

that could probably work a lot better, Yeah ...

926

:

in that sort of way.

927

:

Definitely.

928

:

I'm really tempted to now mention my friends that are

929

:

musicians that are using AI, but...

930

:

that, that's pretty cool.

931

:

yeah, certainly it's a, a bridge and a tool it, for,

932

:

in my opinion at the moment, to,

933

:

to help be more efficient and yeah,

934

:

helping those considerations, because of it, a lot, yeah,

935

:

people just don't seem...

936

:

don't know what they don't know, don't necessarily.

937

:

is if it can be form help form that educational,

938

:

bridge as well.

939

:

It's, yeah.

940

:

Yeah.

941

:

Offer to Teach people, like train them as they go ...

942

:

off of us.

943

:

Yeah.

944

:

Yeah, for sure.

945

:

I think, see it as like a curb cut, the curb cut effect,

946

:

you know,

947

:

how useful that is to everyone rather than just for people

948

:

in wheelchairs or how it,

949

:

what it was designed for initially, you know.

950

:

Yeah.

951

:

The, the...

952

:

It's, yeah, the possibilities hopefully are endless.

953

:

But, amazing.

954

:

Well, thank you so much.

955

:

I'm not gonna take too much more of your time up.

956

:

I just wanted to ask if there's a sort of,

957

:

if there is one piece of advice you'd give to an

958

:

organization that are sort of in that stage where they

959

:

don't really know where to begin,

960

:

what would you sort of recommend,

961

:

especially I guess retailers who might now be trying to

962

:

take accessibility a bit more seriously.

963

:

do you have like a, a, a just a, a,

964

:

a small piece of advice that you'd, you'd share with them?

965

:

Yeah, sure.

966

:

I suppose, those who work in accessibility,

967

:

we all know that accessibility is a journey,

968

:

not a destination.

969

:

But I think there's, there's five things, that I've,

970

:

I've learned that I would take forward if I was starting

971

:

afresh.

972

:

but also key whatever level of maturity you are when it

973

:

comes to accessibility, that those are the,

974

:

the five Ps of making inclusion.

975

:

So one is around procurement.

976

:

retail industry is so reliant, I think, on, partners,

977

:

when...

978

:

So getting accessibility inclusion embedded into that

979

:

procurement process, so it stops that petrol fixing.

980

:

policy, is another one.

981

:

and the, and then process,

982

:

so whatever team you're in to make sure that it's an

983

:

inclusive and an accessible process and that, fourth,

984

:

you're, that you're practicing,

985

:

that you're practicing accessibility,

986

:

whether that's learning on the, on the job, doing training,

987

:

get involved in the, the communities.

988

:

But yeah, practicing in, in your own like discipline.

989

:

And then people, making sure that, final, yeah,

990

:

people making sure they're,

991

:

at the heart of everything that you do.

992

:

customers or colleagues, yeah, people for me is the,

993

:

the most important.

994

:

Keep them at the center.

995

:

there, there is that quote, I can't recall its origins, but,

996

:

something along the lines of, "If,

997

:

if you design for the edges,

998

:

you get the center for free." So yeah, the...

999

:

remembering the five Ps, I think's.

:

00:45:48,038 --> 00:45:48,038

Yeah ...

:

00:45:48,158 --> 00:45:50,458

a good one to, to remember.

:

00:45:51,458 --> 00:45:52,058

Amazing.

:

00:45:52,398 --> 00:45:52,898

I love that.

:

00:45:53,838 --> 00:45:54,918

and then when you said practicing,

:

00:45:54,998 --> 00:45:57,358

I was hoping you were gonna say listening to this podcast.

:

00:45:57,418 --> 00:45:58,218

That could be something people.

:

00:45:58,578 --> 00:45:58,698

Yeah ...

:

00:45:58,738 --> 00:45:59,058

can do as well.

:

00:45:59,078 --> 00:45:59,458

Of course.

:

00:45:59,778 --> 00:46:00,618

I should have mentioned that.

:

00:46:00,658 --> 00:46:00,798

Yeah.

:

00:46:01,998 --> 00:46:04,238

That was part of my learning journey anyway, so.

:

00:46:04,798 --> 00:46:05,518

Oh, legend.

:

00:46:05,738 --> 00:46:05,738

Yeah.

:

00:46:05,778 --> 00:46:06,358

Oh, that's great.

:

00:46:06,458 --> 00:46:06,538

Mm-hmm.

:

00:46:06,558 --> 00:46:07,338

I'm glad it's helping.

:

00:46:07,818 --> 00:46:08,398

But amazing.

:

00:46:08,478 --> 00:46:09,838

Paul, pleasure as always.

:

00:46:09,898 --> 00:46:12,798

Thanks so much for all of your insights and your answers to

:

00:46:12,798 --> 00:46:13,438

those questions.

:

00:46:13,478 --> 00:46:16,918

I hope I didn't push you too, too hard on any of them.

:

00:46:18,518 --> 00:46:19,698

and thanks for everyone for listening.

:

00:46:20,278 --> 00:46:21,678

so if you enjoyed today's episode,

:

00:46:21,978 --> 00:46:25,398

please do subscribe or leave a review or give me some

:

00:46:25,438 --> 00:46:26,838

feedback or share it with someone,

:

00:46:26,938 --> 00:46:29,258

because it might help with their learning journey in

:

00:46:29,298 --> 00:46:30,338

accessibility as well.

:

00:46:30,398 --> 00:46:31,358

So brilliant.

:

00:46:31,398 --> 00:46:32,478

Well, thanks again, Paul.

:

00:46:32,878 --> 00:46:34,198

I'm sure we'll speak again soon.

:

00:46:34,718 --> 00:46:35,358

Thank you, Joe.

:

00:46:35,398 --> 00:46:36,418

Very kind for having me.

All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for The Digital Accessibility Podcast

About the Podcast

The Digital Accessibility Podcast
Interviews with Digital Accessibility Leaders
In The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Accessibility Leaders are interviewed by Joe James about the importance of digital accessibility in business and society.

Joe is a Digital Accessibility Recruiter at PCR Digital with an inquisitive mind and a passion for the space.

Tune in for key insights, personal accounts, and takeaways about the importance of digital accessibility, told by experts.

Contact: joe.james@pcrdigital.com
PCR Digital: https://www.pcrdigital.com/

About your host

Profile picture for Joe James

Joe James

Hi! I'm Joe. I'm a Technical Recruitment Consultant who's worked in a huge variety of industries. Having worked to hire specialists for one of the world leaders in digital accessibility, my own passion for and interest in the field has grown.

My aim is to chat with thought leaders and advocates within the space to raise more awareness of the field in general and help to understand what we can all be doing to ensure all areas of the web/technology are accessible to everyone.