Grant Broome - Founder and Head of Accessibility at Dig Inclusion
A new episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast featuring Grant Broome, Founder and Head of Accessibility at Dig Inclusion.
We discuss;
- Grant's experience across his 20 years of experience within the Digital Accessibility and Inclusive Content space.
- Dig Inclusion and Grant's Hugr App which is helping to simplify and guide accessibility testing and reporting
- Working with specialist consultancies and;
- What simple steps everyone can take to implement more accessibility in their work!
Resource Links:
- Dig Inclusion: https://diginclusion.com/
- People Centric Recruitment: https://www.pcrdigital.com/
- Nile Agency: https://nilehq.com/
- Hugr App: https://hugr.app/
Joe's Social Media Links:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/
- Twitter: @A11yJoe
Grant's Social Media Links:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/grantbroome/
- Twitter/X: @Grantbroome
Transcript
Hi and welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast, sponsored by PCR
Speaker:Digital, who provide people centric recruitment. Throughout this series, I'll
Speaker:be interviewing professionals who work within the field of accessibility to share
Speaker:their expertise, journeys and general thoughts on the key issues facing the
Speaker:industry today. My aim is to provide an in depth look into the world
Speaker:of digital accessibility and the impact it has on everyone. The goal is to
Speaker:bridge the skills gap in the current market and inspire other people to join
Speaker:the movement towards a more accessible digital world. So whether you're a
Speaker:seasoned professional or just starting out, I hope that this platform will
Speaker:provide you with valuable insights and practical advice from experts and
Speaker:advocates within this extremely important community. So sit back, relax, and I
Speaker:hope you enjoy the chat.
Speaker:Joining me today is Grant Broom, who is the founder and digital accessibility
Speaker:strategy manager at Dig Inclusion. Dig Inclusion is a small company dedicated to
Speaker:making digital media totally inclusive. They provide testing and training to
Speaker:ensure that your services are accessible to everyone, regardless of ability. Grant
Speaker:was also Web Accessibility Manager for CDSM Interactive Solutions, now known as "Thinqi".
Speaker:Grant is someone who has dedicated their career to digital accessibility and
Speaker:inclusion with over 20 years of experience in the space. He has invaluable hands
Speaker:on experience, and we're hoping to tap into that today. So, welcome to the
Speaker:podcast, Grant.
Speaker:Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for inviting
Speaker:me.
Speaker:No problem at all. So, that's 20 years working within the field of
Speaker:accessibility, designing more inclusive websites and tools. Many conversations
Speaker:that I have include a part about how there's still so much to do,
Speaker:but to try and make it more positive. I'm sure that there must have
Speaker:been so much progress within that time, surely.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely. The landscape has changed an awful lot in 20 years.
Speaker:When you think about the developments in technology, specifically mobile devices
Speaker:arriving, richer content, high bandwidth means
Speaker:much more video and other interaction. And AI has just landed, so it's hard
Speaker:to know where to begin. But I think the most significant change is
Speaker:probably awareness of accessibility. So, moving on in 20 years, back
Speaker:when I started as an Accessibility, you had to explain what it was, let
Speaker:alone get people to try and introduce inclusive practises
Speaker:or even think about having something like an audit. And that's changed. So now
Speaker:with legislation and just an increased awareness of disability and inclusion,
Speaker:people know what accessibility is now. I think the next challenge is really to
Speaker:help people to implement it and understand it and start moving towards producing more
Speaker:accessible content, which is the main challenge. But, yeah, certainly in 20
Speaker:years, things have progressed a lot. There's been a lot of change and
Speaker:there's been a lot of positive move towards making more inclusive content,
Speaker:which is obviously a good thing.
Speaker:Definitely. It's great to know that awareness is constantly being raised. And
Speaker:obviously you've had a big part to do, you've had a big part in
Speaker:that. And I think that the landscape in general is growing, isn't it? I
Speaker:think we're seeing an awful lot more I say a lot on this podcast
Speaker:is it because I'm talking about it more and talking to those people. But
Speaker:I think in general, we're starting to see more accessible or more diverse
Speaker:advertisements, even on TV, that are including people that are maybe hard of
Speaker:hearing or deaf or blind people or people with disabilities sort of in
Speaker:programmes and stuff. So even that awareness, I think, and representation
Speaker:really starts to help as well.
Speaker:Yeah, 100%. And I think it's been represented in a much more positive way
Speaker:now as well. So I think historically, people have been a little bit afraid
Speaker:of disability or unsure about how to speak to people with disabilities, and I
Speaker:think exposure has been quite low. But I think that has changed and the
Speaker:media representation of disability has changed dramatically as well in that time.
Speaker:And that's just all very helpful.
Speaker:Definitely brilliant. And also, what's equally, or even more so helpful is
Speaker:what you do with Dig Inclusion. So could you go into a bit more
Speaker:detail about what it is that Dig Inclusion does and what your plans are
Speaker:for the near future? And also, sorry there's a few questions here. Maybe share
Speaker:one of your biggest achievements since founding that company. Yeah, a proud
Speaker:moment for you would be nice to hear about.
Speaker:Okay, so Dig Inclusion helps companies understand and deliver accessible content.
Speaker:So we do this through audits and consultancy and training. We also fix PDFs
Speaker:and make them accessible, which is one of those kind of hidden areas of
Speaker:accessibility which people often don't think about. So very often you'll get
Speaker:a perfectly accessible journey on the web and that will end with an inaccessible
Speaker:PDF. So that's one of the services that we offer and something that people
Speaker:probably don't think about enough. So we've got a team of testers who
Speaker:have deep knowledge of accessibility requirements and how to cheque content to
Speaker:make sure that they meet those requirements. I think one of the biggest
Speaker:issues that design and development teams have is just understanding the issues that
Speaker:their content has. Well, not just understanding the issues that the content
Speaker:has, but how to fix it as well. So we spend a lot of
Speaker:time with our clients, helping them understand what these issues are, how they
Speaker:impact on people and how to fix those issues as well, which is the
Speaker:important key. Having the technical knowledge to be able to do that
Speaker:is quite important. Back in January, Dig was acquired by Nile Group, based in
Speaker:Edinburgh, and they're a really great company and they've helped us tighten up
Speaker:our proposition and offer better services to customers. And in the near
Speaker:future, we'll be getting better visibility on our brand. I think we've always
Speaker:offered really good, I would like to say 'best in class' accessibility services,
Speaker:but we haven't really had the time to spend on
Speaker:marketing what we actually do, so that will be changing in the coming months.
Speaker:We'll also be dipping our toes into AI and finding out whether it's really
Speaker:useful for accessibility testing yet. So there are other services out there that
Speaker:say that they use AI, but they're not particularly impressive right now. And
Speaker:I'd like to explore whether some of the other approaches for using AI can
Speaker:help our testing teams with speed more than anything, because accessibility
Speaker:testing is a lot of heavy lifting, it's quite laborious and I mean, just
Speaker:in the labour sense. And if we can develop tools that can help us
Speaker:with it, that's going to be great. I think probably one of the biggest
Speaker:achievements of Dig is probably not one thing, but I think that for a
Speaker:company that was bootstrapped, we got a really impressive client list across
Speaker:finance and sports, retail and charity sector as well. And
Speaker:I'm really proud that it's grown from very humble beginnings
Speaker:with no investment, and it's grown to a company that's servicing
Speaker:some very impressive clients. So I think that's probably the thing that I'm most
Speaker:proud of. And our Hugr tool, which hopefully we'll get to talk about as
Speaker:well, definitely.
Speaker:Be asking about that in a little bit. So, from our conversation when we met
Speaker:at Accessibility Scotland last month. Now, we mentioned about the recruitment in the
Speaker:space and unfortunately, one of the candidates that I've placed elsewhere had
Speaker:been trained and was currently working with yourself. So it was an unfortunate
Speaker:instance where I kind of poached someone from you, but I'd say an achievement
Speaker:of Dig is that you do offer that outstanding training. You make some
Speaker:people with limited knowledge, I suppose, in the accessibility field, you provide
Speaker:them with huge amounts of knowledge and then they can provide that best in
Speaker:service level across the board. So even beyond Dig, that's a huge achievement to
Speaker:know that some of those people, that you've imparted that knowledge on them and
Speaker:assisted them to grow in their own personal journeys as well.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, it's always painful when you've got someone like a key member
Speaker:of staff leave, but at the same
Speaker:time, I don't think we can talk about where they went to. But it's
Speaker:very proud that we've managed to train people to the level where they can
Speaker:go and work for some of the top companies in the world. And, you
Speaker:know, I suppose it's a bittersweet moment in that sense. It's like, I don't
Speaker:know, when you nurture someone and they just become excellent and then they go
Speaker:on to do other things. I think that it's also a proud moment, as
Speaker:painful as it is at the time, it's good to know that they're valued
Speaker:in that way and to their own credit as well. When people work hard
Speaker:in this industry, I think that plenty of doors can open. There's so much
Speaker:that needs to be done in accessibility and it's probably one of the
Speaker:fastest growing areas at the moment because so many companies are behind on
Speaker:accessibility and they probably don't even understand the need for recruitment. So
Speaker:the ones that do, they find the gems. And I'm really pleased
Speaker:that some of the people that we've trained up in Dig have gone on
Speaker:to join those great companies.
Speaker:Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. And it is a shame because we're a very small company
Speaker:ourselves, so it's really tricky that there is that competitive market where you
Speaker:could lose people to other larger companies that can offer certain things
Speaker:that we might not be able to offer. And it's an unfortunate thing, but
Speaker:like you said, if we can see that the sort of bittersweet but more
Speaker:the sweet side that they're out there doing the good work,
Speaker:they're still carrying the torch, the 'Dig Inclusion' torch, where they learned what
Speaker:they know. But brilliant. Again mentioned that we met at Accessibility Scotland in
Speaker:September. Really nice to meet you face to face and catch up. So I
Speaker:know that we've had a few sort of discussions online, but there's
Speaker:something different about meeting in person. And you mentioned then that you've
Speaker:developed a tool to assist with some more automation of accessibility testing
Speaker:and that's going to help so many people like you just mentioned about how
Speaker:laborious it can be conducting those sort of content and the tests of content
Speaker:and tools. Could you go into any more detail about that tool and how
Speaker:that might help?
Speaker:I would love to. One of the things about accessibility testing is that
Speaker:it can be very repetitive. It's just the nature of that type of
Speaker:testing. Probably most types of testing digital products is you'll find an amount
Speaker:of repetition. So we developed Hugr to reduce that or eliminate it in some
Speaker:circumstances. The tool we've been developing is called Hugr. We developed
Speaker:it as an in house tool or framework for our own accessibility
Speaker:testing because I think we just got tired of Excel spreadsheets and Word
Speaker:documents and reporting in that way. And I know that there are other methods
Speaker:of reporting, such as through Jira and there are other accessibility frameworks
Speaker:out there as well, but we felt that we just needed to have something
Speaker:that suited the way that we tested and also to keep everything in one
Speaker:place and simplify the testing process and make it consistent. So the database behind
Speaker:Hugr contains hundreds of pre written issues that can be found in an
Speaker:instant and every one of those has a corresponding solution and it's a guided
Speaker:process as well. So I'm kind of jumping around with ideas, I suppose, or
Speaker:concepts of it. But essentially, a person who is using Hugr, even if they're
Speaker:a rookie, even if they're not that experienced, they'll be presented with a
Speaker:spreadsheet. They'll be able to an online spreadsheet through a browser that will
Speaker:have columns and rows representing the different guidelines and the different
Speaker:types of content they want to test. And then it's a guided process through
Speaker:testing and the aim is to populate everything in the spreadsheet.
Speaker:But what's happening is that as people are adding issues to the spreadsheet, as
Speaker:they add in screenshots, et cetera, a report is getting written in the
Speaker:background. So by the time you finish just logging all the data that you
Speaker:have, the report is written for you at the end. But it makes the
Speaker:amount of writing and the amount of repetition.
Speaker:I won't.
Speaker:Say disappear, but it minimises it and it removes the need for a lot
Speaker:of it. So it just means that we can get through testing much faster
Speaker:than we would using traditional methods. And for our customers, it's very easy
Speaker:for them to look at the report, they can log in online, they can
Speaker:comment on the issues that we've raised, they can ask for more information, et
Speaker:cetera. So it's a slick way of doing accessibility
Speaker:testing and it's free as well. So we do have enterprise versions and team
Speaker:versions, but there's also a free version that people can go along and try
Speaker:out. It's Hugr app. So that's Hugr.app, and it's not an
Speaker:app you'd use on your phone, it is actually something that you'd use on
Speaker:your desktop through a browser and you can go through
Speaker:accessibility testing really rapidly and speed up the process using that. So
Speaker:I urge anyone to give it a go and see what they think about
Speaker:it and let me know what they think of it as well. And if
Speaker:there's anything that we can do to improve it, we will be all ears.
Speaker:That sounds amazing. So I'm even going to go and do that now with
Speaker:our website because like you said, it's a guided process. I mean, obviously I
Speaker:know a fair amount about accessibility, but on the less practical side, and
Speaker:what I'm trying to do is more courses and get more practical knowledge
Speaker:for myself as well, just to better serve clients. But if something like that,
Speaker:you said it's more or less a guided process, if you know what you're
Speaker:looking for, sort of thing, could it help to train people?
Speaker:Yeah, it can. So there's guidance built into it. So with every criteria that
Speaker:you're testing against, say 1.1.1, which is alternatives for non text
Speaker:content, or basically alternative text for images, that's what really boils down to.
Speaker:There's guidance in there that is written in a very readable format.
Speaker:So one thing about the guidelines that we have, the Web Content Accessibility
Speaker:Guidelines or WCAG, they are quite technical. I think you'd probably need to
Speaker:be a developer to understand them all properly. So what we've done is we've
Speaker:taken that information, we've just made it easy to read and understand and also
Speaker:simplified the test process for the different criteria. So I think that
Speaker:probably anybody with the basic knowledge of HTML should be able to just
Speaker:open up, Hugr, start testing and get really good results from it.
Speaker:Brilliant. Perfect. And you've said a key point there as well that I'm just
Speaker:going to circle back to very quickly about the WCAG guidelines and how they
Speaker:can be. They're written in quite technical speak or technical jargon, which in itself
Speaker:you could say, I don't want to say anything against the W3C,
Speaker:they do great work and the guidelines are very helpful - Yeah, 100%
Speaker:but in itself could
Speaker:make those guidelines inaccessible to people that struggle to read technical
Speaker:jargon. So that's great that you've got a tool like that that's going to
Speaker:put it in more layman's terms, I suppose, or something that's, like you
Speaker:say, more readable a wider audience, then in turn, making digital accessibility, or
Speaker:the provision of digital accessibility more accessible, more people can get into
Speaker:the profession, which I think is the end goal for this podcast anyway. But
Speaker:in general, I think we need more support globally, people focusing on and
Speaker:working in the space. So it's brilliant and definitely going to reiterate. Go to
Speaker:Hugr app. HUGR.app. Give it a go. I'll put links, obviously,
Speaker:in the description for this episode and I'm sure that people will be able
Speaker:to get in touch with you directly, Grant, with any feedback and tips.
Speaker:Absolutely. Excellent. Great stuff. So, during your time in the accessibility
Speaker:space, you must have seen just how restricted and niche the field can be,
Speaker:as we've just mentioned. But has there always been that skills gap? Is it
Speaker:because it's so niche? And is that one of the reasons that Dig was
Speaker:founded? And would you say that there are less roles available?
Speaker:It seems that there's the need for specialists to come into multiple
Speaker:companies in a system, so you need more of a consultancy framework rather
Speaker:than an in-house team. Is that why Dig was created, to make it
Speaker:more of a consultancy?
Speaker:So, yeah, I think most
Speaker:companies, even very large companies, don't have an accessibility team in house,
Speaker:so most companies, at the moment at least, will be looking to third parties
Speaker:to fulfil those needs. There's a huge skills gap in accessibility at the moment.
Speaker:I think the accessibility lead role is growing and more companies are investing
Speaker:in full time accessibility leads, but that doesn't mean that those leads can then
Speaker:do the testing as well. That's not really their role. Their role is to
Speaker:manage the output of the company, make sure that the company understands how to
Speaker:create accessible content, also do the testing well, manage the test. And they
Speaker:shouldn't really be doing testing themselves, although I think a lot of
Speaker:them do get involved in testing because it's very difficult not to be drawn
Speaker:into that. And it's a very tough role with lots of people in this
Speaker:role suffering burnout, actually and I think that's because they just need more
Speaker:support or they need more need to be able to shift the
Speaker:load a little bit more. I think. I think the main reason is that
Speaker:it's so isolated. So if you work for a company like Dig Inclusion, most
Speaker:of those around you have a similar knowledge. [cough] Excuse me. And you can share
Speaker:the load more easily, but even then it's tough because all roads will lead
Speaker:to you. And if you're an accessible delete in an organisation, you often find
Speaker:that you're the only one with anything close to a complete knowledge of the
Speaker:subject. And you'll be bombarded with information requests, support, training
Speaker:and other day to day managerial tasks. And it's easy to become overwhelmed. And
Speaker:we see that happening a, you know, at Accessibility Scotland. There were a
Speaker:couple of speakers there that mentioned it or even had it on their slides
Speaker:and I've seen a few slides recently and I think the root of that
Speaker:is just because the accessibility is hard,
Speaker:it is quite tough. The approach that we take
Speaker:in Dig Inclusion to get people up to speed, we often work with people
Speaker:who don't have any accessibility experience, but of course we need to
Speaker:get their knowledge up as soon as possible so that the leadership roles
Speaker:aren't diving in and kind of doing the testing themselves. The approach we
Speaker:take at Dig when we're trying to get people up to speed, when we
Speaker:take on new employees. I call them employees, but really they're
Speaker:consultants in their own right. Really, they've got a lot of skills and
Speaker:a very deep knowledge. But we tend to take people who maybe have very
Speaker:little experience, but they've got the right aptitude. And we've identified that
Speaker:they're going to be a fast learner, or at least we hope that they
Speaker:will, because there's a lot of learning to do and it's a process that
Speaker:takes about six months. But they'll shadow an experienced tester or senior tester.
Speaker:They'll do a testing alongside them. They'll have some of the simpler criteria
Speaker:to test, and we'll just build up their knowledge over time. And then at
Speaker:around six months, we'll let them have their own projects and monitor the
Speaker:outcomes of those throughout the QA process. So it's quite a long process. There's
Speaker:a lot of investment, I suppose, and time. But what it means is that
Speaker:it's not a case of you put someone on a training course and then
Speaker:suddenly they're an accessibility expert, their knowledge is born out of doing
Speaker:the tests alongside someone who's very experienced in testing, and then we'll
Speaker:find that they'll just be very capable of doing the tests themselves. And that's
Speaker:the approach we take. And that's how we we create so many great
Speaker:I can't say that we create great people, but that's how we foster or
Speaker:that's how we nurture. That's the right word. So that's how we we nurture
Speaker:people's skill set and accessibility. And it seems to work really well.
Speaker:It's a lovely framework to have and I think, again, it's that imparting
Speaker:knowledge and giving people practical experience or practical knowledge, because
Speaker:we know a lot, there are a lot of certifications you can get out
Speaker:there, there's a lot of courses you can take, like the ones I've done
Speaker:myself. And it's not necessarily going to give you that mindset, it's not going
Speaker:to give you the understanding of the user requirements and how different they
Speaker:can be. And if you do something one way recently had a chat with
Speaker:Sean Connor, who's the Head of Accessibility at Monzo Bank, and he was
Speaker:saying that it is that mindset and trying to get into what are the
Speaker:user requirements and if I'm going to develop or design something this way, who
Speaker:might I exclude? And not many people think that simple thing initially,
Speaker:which would help. If a lot of people ask that question early on in
Speaker:the design phase, then it may make things a little bit better. But, yeah,
Speaker:no, it's an amazing framework to have. I think you are nurturing and fostering
Speaker:new talent and putting them into the marketplace, which is always brilliant,
Speaker:good, brilliant, very rewarding, definitely. So for the listeners, for
Speaker:people that might be interested in working with a consultancy, such as Dig
Speaker:Inclusion, could you give us an idea of what the benefits are of working
Speaker:with a consultancy? I guess you've kind of touched on that, because a lot
Speaker:of companies will only they'll probably put a lead in place and say,
Speaker:that's our budget, we've invested in accessibility, they manage everything top
Speaker:to bottom. But I guess what would it usually be? Is it a longer
Speaker:term partnership with the clients you bring on board?
Speaker:Yeah, it has to be longer term. So, as we've already discussed, like, the
Speaker:learning for a trainee who's with us takes at least six months. So for
Speaker:a whole company to kind of gain that knowledge internally and change the
Speaker:culture, it takes longer. So we do sometimes just do an audit
Speaker:for companies because that's their budget. But the ones that have the greatest
Speaker:success are the ones that we have a more long term relationship with.
Speaker:Companies normally have very large gaps in their accessibility, knowledge and
Speaker:capability that they're blissfully unaware of. They're creating huge amounts of
Speaker:inaccessible content and that puts them at risk of losing customers. And not so
Speaker:much here in the UK at the moment, although it will change. But in
Speaker:the US, we see a lot of punitive legal
Speaker:action against companies that don't produce accessible content. And I think we
Speaker:are going to see that happening here as well in the UK. And there's
Speaker:new laws coming out across the EU that mean that everybody has to have
Speaker:accessible content, and I think companies are still catching up on that. But
Speaker:it's such a complex topic and I think most people are under the impression
Speaker:that somebody in the company is taking care of it, that they've got a
Speaker:handle of it, usually the accessibility lead, but of course they can't do
Speaker:all of it. And the reality is that teams are working flat out to
Speaker:meet the deadline, and accessibility is one of the last things that they
Speaker:dedicate sufficient time to, and one of the first things to fall by the
Speaker:wayside. And that's because accessibility is so complicated. There are so many
Speaker:requirements for so many different user types. The guidance is very technical, as
Speaker:we've discussed, and therefore it's easy to misinterpret it if you don't have
Speaker:a technical background. And that's one of the difficult things with accessibility,
Speaker:is a lot of people, they're not technical, they're in accessibility because
Speaker:they care about people or they're designers, and because of the technical nature of
Speaker:WCAG for a lot of it, it's very difficult for them to get into.
Speaker:So the benefit of working with Dig inclusion or any other consultancy like us
Speaker:is that we're here to help you navigate a very rocky landscape. I
Speaker:remember hearing someone say that accessibility isn't rocket science, and
Speaker:I'd argue that in many ways it's more difficult than rocket science. At
Speaker:least when you build in a rocket, everyone has the same outcome in mind.
Speaker:The accessibility companies here to make sure your rocket doesn't blow up on
Speaker:the launch pad, especially in light of those new regulations that I just
Speaker:mentioned. And it can be very challenging.
Speaker:Our role as a company is just to help people understand what
Speaker:accessibility is, what the outcomes are for accessibility, tests for accessibility.
Speaker:There's a lot of facets to it that we just need to have in
Speaker:place to make sure that those companies understand where they're going. And it
Speaker:takes time. So those longer term relationships that we have with clients
Speaker:are the ones where we see the best results.
Speaker:Definitely, yeah. And I love that that's probably going to be featured in an
Speaker:upcoming episode is a quote from Grant Broom that accessibility is actually more
Speaker:difficult than rocket science. I'd love to see people refute that.
Speaker:Well, yeah, we'll see if Elon Musk listens to the podcast. That would be
Speaker:interesting, wouldn't it? So do you have an idea of what you think are the
Speaker:most immediate challenges facing digital accessibility? Like, say, the next year?
Speaker:And you've mentioned the new regulations across the EU that are coming in
Speaker:2025, I believe. Are they having an impact already on companids appetites for
Speaker:accessibility, or are we still seeing that blissful ignorance or unawareness
Speaker:amongst the business community?
Speaker:So tackle that last one first. I think the regulations
Speaker:will have an impact, but they'll probably be retrospective once they've come out.
Speaker:What we saw with the Public Sector Bodies Accessibility Regulations [PSBAR],
Speaker:which came out in 2018, is that the adoption was very slow. So even
Speaker:though the regulations came into force, within a couple of years,
Speaker:the websites weren't accessible. So what we've seen now is a lot of
Speaker:reactionary inquiries, so that we've got lots of public sector organisations
Speaker:getting in touch with us and saying we failed a test or this sort
Speaker:of thing. And it's because I don't want to say that they didn't take
Speaker:the regulations seriously, it's probably more the case. They just didn't know
Speaker:what to do, they didn't know how to tackle them and they had no
Speaker:guidance and they wouldn't have had an accessibility lead, so they just didn't
Speaker:have the things in place that they needed to and didn't know how to
Speaker:get them, probably. Although there was plenty of guidance from the Government
Speaker:themselves, I think that people got a little bit lost with it. So I
Speaker:think we'll probably see the same thing with the private sector regulations coming
Speaker:out of the EU. Of course, in the UK we may or may not
Speaker:have regulations. I think we probably will have regulations that match, but
Speaker:in any case, the companies in the UK probably won't want to fall behind
Speaker:their EU counterparts when that kicks in. So I think that it will
Speaker:make a change, but I think it'll probably lag a little bit behind the
Speaker:regulation. And whether we'll start to see legal cases like we do in the
Speaker:States over this is yet to be seen, but I think it's likely, I
Speaker:think it's much more likely. I've been saying for years, in the next couple
Speaker:of years we're going to see some UK case law on this, but it's
Speaker:very slow to materialise, but I think it will come. It's quite powerful, the
Speaker:legislation that's already there, and for that to be bolstered by new legislation,
Speaker:and for that to be brought sharply in focus to the public, I think
Speaker:we are going to see the landscape change again.
Speaker:To the first part, I think the digital space is constantly growing and
Speaker:evolving and accelerating, actually, especially with recent developments in AI
Speaker:and VR as well, and they're going to be probably the biggest causes of
Speaker:change and things that we don't have lots of guidance on now. We could
Speaker:definitely do with some VR accessibility guidelines ahead of mass adoption, and AI
Speaker:interfaces are probably going to move past keyboard and screens very quickly. And
Speaker:just like other industries, I don't think we have the right tools to adapt
Speaker:yet. And we may see a lot of emerging technologies that don't have
Speaker:accessibility built in. I know there's a lot of cynics that believe that large
Speaker:scale AI adoption is still quite a way off and VR experiences will never
Speaker:catch on, and perhaps they're right, but I have reservations. I think there's a
Speaker:clear direction emerging and some of our current technologies, such as keyboards,
Speaker:are already starting to feel dated now. I think if we really think about
Speaker:it, I mean, they've been around for a long time and speech is something
Speaker:that we starting to use more and more with devices and I think we
Speaker:all want to be able. To speak to other devices more, but they're just
Speaker:not very good at responding right now. But I think that's going to change
Speaker:really quickly and something's going to give and I think it'll happen much
Speaker:faster than people expect.
Speaker:I think that's a really poignant point. And even just in my
Speaker:own life, I've got a microphone button on my TV remote. Who would have
Speaker:thought? And now I'm teaching my grandparents, like, oh, if you just press
Speaker:that and speak to it, it will come up. Just say Netflix or whatever
Speaker:streaming platform you want to use and it sort of takes that on. But
Speaker:then instantly now, because of being in this space, I'm thinking, well, what if
Speaker:people don't have the ability to use that speech recognition technology?
Speaker:They're going to still need an element of the manual process. And is that
Speaker:fair? Is there something else we could do? It's that constant emerging technology
Speaker:that's going to keep everyone on their toes and it's the sort of perpetual
Speaker:need for people like yourself, for consultancies like Dig and others, and
Speaker:I think making people aware that it's here to stay. We need to constantly
Speaker:and continuously think about accessibility, especially in this sort of
Speaker:tech world we're living in, ey? Sorry, do you want to add anything to
Speaker:that at all?
Speaker:No, I was just agreeing with you. There's a lot of change that's going
Speaker:to happen very quickly and I think we need to be more ready for
Speaker:it than we are.
Speaker:Absolutely. But yes, this might help then. So the final question I usually ask
Speaker:every guest on the podcast is what's the simplest, most cost effective and
Speaker:convenient way that someone can implement digital accessibility within any line of
Speaker:work?
Speaker:Yeah, so accessibility is complicated and it's time consuming, so it's hard
Speaker:to come up with something that's just a simple solution. But I would say
Speaker:that you need to invest, just invest a tiny amount of time finding out
Speaker:what you don't know, just to give you an idea of the scope of
Speaker:it, because I think a lot of people are mistaken and thinking that
Speaker:accessibility is very easy to deliver. I think that very often we get
Speaker:accessibility, we have to do an audit right at the end of the process,
Speaker:where there's no time to fix any of the things that we find, or
Speaker:do a retest or maybe iterations of retest, and we've had maybe no input
Speaker:into the design either. A product in that, that's a very
Speaker:precarious position for a product to be in. And I think that's just born
Speaker:out of just lack of awareness, lack of knowledge. So I would say invest
Speaker:a tiny amount of time finding out what you don't know. Spend maybe an
Speaker:hour looking at WCAG 2.2, which comes out today [05/10/2023]. I know that this podcast will
Speaker:come out later, but this is the day we're recording. So just so you
Speaker:have an idea of the scale of the accessibility requirements and start
Speaker:having conversations with colleagues so that you can begin to foster an
Speaker:inclusive culture. Talk to an accessibility agency, maybe ask for a
Speaker:meeting 30 minutes of the time so you can talk about your current situation.
Speaker:And I think most agencies will be glad to do this, and the whole
Speaker:aim of this would be just to find out what you don't know. Don't
Speaker:be ignorant about how big the scope of accessibility is, the task ahead of
Speaker:you to make things accessible. I think that's where the problems arise, is when
Speaker:people just have no knowledge of it. And that's what we see day in,
Speaker:day out with companies that just haven't given it enough time or attention because
Speaker:they didn't realise how complicated or how important it was. But
Speaker:as a quick tip, you can download an accessibility checker. It won't tell
Speaker:you the whole story, but if you find errors, then you'll need to do
Speaker:something about them. So if you were to download something like the WAVE
Speaker:Toolbar for Chrome Accessibility checker and just run it over there, that
Speaker:will give you a number of errors. And you're going to have to do
Speaker:something about those errors, because those errors mean that somebody isn't
Speaker:going to be able to access your website for lots of different reasons. You
Speaker:don't want that. So, yeah, that's what I would say. Just try and find
Speaker:out what you don't know. And I don't mean learn everything that you don't
Speaker:know, just appreciate the scope of how big this subject is. And you could
Speaker:do that just by looking at the guidelines or just running an
Speaker:accessibility check and that will give you an idea.
Speaker:Brilliant. That's an amazing tip. And, like you say, it's having the humility
Speaker:to understand, to realise. I don't think it's quite a tricky
Speaker:topic, I think, to talk about, because it sounds like we're bashing on people
Speaker:and being like, why don't you know this? Why don't you do this? But
Speaker:actually, there are people out there that know this stuff and you just need
Speaker:to ask the question. Have the humility to be like, well, it's not something
Speaker:I focus on, but I do care and I want to make sure that
Speaker:everyone can use our service or website or tool or whatever it might be.
Speaker:And, yeah, brilliant advice and that's a nice, simple thing someone can do to
Speaker:take those first steps. So thank you. You're welcome. The final thoughts, then.
Speaker:So I usually just sort of say, that's the end of the sort of
Speaker:formal question, so thank you very much, but I just wanted to give you
Speaker:some time to share anything of real importance to you at the moment, either
Speaker:within the accessibility world or personal life or anything you'd like to add.
Speaker:So I think one thing that I think as a general thing, I think
Speaker:people need to, especially in today's world, where people are really anxious
Speaker:about things and there seems to be a lot of concern about.
Speaker:A lot of people are struggling with their mental health and things like that.
Speaker:And we talked a little bit about burnout as well, which is definitely a
Speaker:danger in our industry and something that I've grappled with as well. And I
Speaker:think what I'd like to say is just be kind to yourself and remember
Speaker:you're human and you'll make mistakes, but just be authentic, be honest with
Speaker:yourself and others, and also invest in the people that
Speaker:care about you. And it's easy in the world we live in today to
Speaker:get distracted by a job or media or things that are
Speaker:happening abroad or just big issues. You know, a lot of people are worried
Speaker:about things like AI and the economy. But I think what we
Speaker:should really be focusing on is investing in the people we care about and
Speaker:the people that care about us, and also investing in ourselves as well,
Speaker:building up knowledge, making ourselves more valuable, mastering something,
Speaker:whether it be in work or outside work, mastering something is quite a
Speaker:valuable thing to do. And also to be brave as well. I think a
Speaker:lot of people get stuck in situations that they're not happy with, and I
Speaker:think to be brave, to find ways of getting out of those situations
Speaker:is really important, too. So I think, yeah, not much on accessibility there, but
Speaker:I think these are things that I've been thinking about quite a lot lately,
Speaker:and I think they're things that have helped me just to focus on those
Speaker:things.
Speaker:Thank you so much, Grant. Yeah, it's a lovely thing to add, and like
Speaker:I say, I'm hoping to get this episode sort of edited and ready for
Speaker:release in the next couple of weeks. But Mental Health Awareness Day, I
Speaker:believe, is the 10th of October, so that would be either just finished or on
Speaker:the day. So when this comes out, it's an amazing thing to add, and
Speaker:I usually finish each episode on a quote centred around accessibility to sort
Speaker:of promote that. But I think you've just done it yourself. I think what
Speaker:you've said there is just as apt and I needn't say anymore. But I
Speaker:appreciate that you sent me some notes before the episode, so I'm just going
Speaker:to sort of paraphrase and repeat that for the quote, if that's okay. Grant
Speaker:so to be kind to yourself, remember that you're human and you'll make
Speaker:mistakes. Be authentic. Invest in the people that you care about and that
Speaker:care about you. Invest in yourself and to be brave, I think that that's
Speaker:just what a better way to finish the episode? So there you go. I
Speaker:was going to quote you in a future episode, but I've done it in
Speaker:your own, so there you oh, that's great.
Speaker:Joe, it's been an absolute pleasure and I've really enjoyed talking about
Speaker:accessibility with you and maybe we'll do it again sometime.
Speaker:I hope so. Definitely I'm hoping to do some sort of panel episodes in
Speaker:the future as well, so it'd be great to sort of get some minds
Speaker:together to sort of approach some subjects within the accessibility space. So I'd
Speaker:love to have you on an episode like that. I hope it won't turn
Speaker:into a debate, but more of a discussion, you can't guarantee that.
Speaker:Well, there we go. But thank you so much for joining me on the
Speaker:episode, Grant, and for all the incredible work that you're doing within the
Speaker:accessibility and inclusive design space. I hope that you've enjoyed the chat.
Speaker:I've really, really enjoyed it. And yeah, like I say, we'll stay in touch.
Speaker:I'll share the links to Hugr, so Hugr.app, Dig Inclusion, Nile
Speaker:and everything else. So they'll be available in either the descriptions of
Speaker:the episode or alongside the posts for it, but brilliant. Thank you so much,
Speaker:Grant, and look forward to staying in touch. Moving forward.
Speaker:Okay, it's been my pleasure. Thanks very much, Joe.
