Emily Rose Yates - Head of Accessibility at Mima
A new episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast featuring Emily Rose Yates, Head of Accessibility at Mima. We discuss Emily's own lived experience as a wheelchair user and her own journey into the world of Accessibility. Emily has utilised her own day-to-day experience throughout her life to encourage positive change through the work she is currently doing to support the growth and innovation of companies and public sector bodies through the adoption of Accessibility/Accessible practices.
We chat about the thin line between physical, social and digital accessibility, imposter syndrome and how to discuss Disabilities without an air of awkwardness, how to ensure people with disabilities are comfortable and welcomed within the interview process and what we should do to continually raise awareness within the field of Accessibility in general!
Resource Links:
- Mima, Design Agency: https://mimagroup.com
- PCR Digital, Digital and Technology Recruitment: https://www.pcrdigital.com/
- Sowing the seeds of Accessibility (Helen Wilson) https://abilitynet.org.uk/news-blogs/time-sow-new-seeds-digital-accessibility
Joe's Social Media Links:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/
- Twitter: @JoeA11y
Emily's Social Media Links:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-rose-yates/
- Personal Website: https://www.emilyroseyates.co.uk/
- Twitter: @emilyryates
- Instagram: emryates
Transcript
Hi and welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast, sponsored by PCR
Speaker:Digital, who provide people centric recruitment.
Speaker:Throughout this series, I'll be interviewing professionals who work within
Speaker:the field of accessibility to share their expertise, journeys and general thoughts
Speaker:on the key issues facing the industry today.
Speaker:My aim is to provide an in depth look into the world of digital
Speaker:accessibility and the impact it has on everyone.
Speaker:The goal is to bridge the skills gap in the current market and inspire.
Speaker:Other people to join the movement towards a more accessible digital world.
Speaker:Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, I hope that this
Speaker:platform will provide you with valuable insights and.
Speaker:Practical advice from experts and advocates in this extremely important
Speaker:community.
Speaker:So sit back, relax, and I hope you enjoy the episode.
Speaker:Today, I'm joined by Emily Rose Yates, who is the head of accessibility at
Speaker:Mima, a human centred design agency with a core focus on physical and social
Speaker:accessibility. Emily is a wheelchair user who has
Speaker:had some truly inspiring achievements throughout her life, which I'm hoping we
Speaker:can discuss a bit more today. We've discussed digital accessibility at
Speaker:length on this podcast and today we've got a slightly different episode.
Speaker:We're diving in to learn a little bit more about the thin line between
Speaker:physical, social and digital accessibility.
Speaker:I hope that's a good general overview, Emily, but please do introduce yourself a
Speaker:bit more for our listeners.
Speaker:Great. Thank you so much and thank you
Speaker:for having me. It's really lovely to be here.
Speaker:Yep, I'm Emily, a wheelchair user. You can probably tell from my accent
Speaker:that I'm originally from North Yorkshire, but I now live in Glasgow, which
Speaker:I absolutely love. And I've been an accessibility consultant
Speaker:in the built environment, social and operational space for just over a decade.
Speaker:And now, yes, very happy to be Head of accessibility and inclusive Design
Speaker:at Mima. So I can tell you more about
Speaker:what we do later, I'm sure.
Speaker:Absolutely. That's brilliant.
Speaker:And it was great meeting you very briefly but in person recently at the
Speaker:Disability Expo in London, and we've also had a great chat previously, putting
Speaker:the world to rights, as we like to do, and I'm sure we'll do
Speaker:the same today. Just a heads up that we're going
Speaker:to stick to some preset questions so our audience don't sort of see us
Speaker:just rambling on and it just keep us on track a bit.
Speaker:Is that okay?
Speaker:Sounds good. Great.
Speaker:Awesome. I'm sure we'll still find a way
Speaker:to ramble but it's all good.
Speaker:So, as you know, I have done a bit of research on yourself before
Speaker:we first met, and I learned that you were the first wheelchair user to
Speaker:cross the Sinai Desert, which is absolutely phenomenal to hear about.
Speaker:I'm sure it was an amazing and beautiful experience, but at the same
Speaker:time, there must have been so much going into that in terms of planning
Speaker:and effort and making it happen. So would you mind telling us a
Speaker:little bit more about that?
Speaker:Absolutely, yeah. So, my first experience of accessible
Speaker:travel, if you like, I was born with cerebral palsy.
Speaker:I've been a wheelchair user since I was nine.
Speaker:And my first experience of accessible travel was when I was 16.
Speaker:I was nominated by my school to go on a trip to Southern Africa
Speaker:with a charity called JOLT - Journey of a Lifetime Trust, and that was with
Speaker:other disabled people. And we went for a month long
Speaker:adventure, doing things that I never, ever thought I'd be able to do.
Speaker:And it was just absolutely incredible learning about my capabilities when I
Speaker:think so often as a society, we focus on disabled people's limitations.
Speaker:That was really cool at such a young age to be able to do.
Speaker:And then I came back to the UK and studied for my A levels
Speaker:and a couple of years later saw a poster for the Yorkshire Schools
Speaker:Exploring Society going to the Sinai Desert.
Speaker:So I thought, Well, I'd had this most amazing trip with lots of other
Speaker:disabled people. This was, of course, going to be
Speaker:exactly the same. And from the very outset, it was
Speaker:a very different experience. Still wonderful, still incredible, but it
Speaker:taught me so many lessons. First of all, it was a much
Speaker:smaller cohort of people and I was the only disabled person on the trip.
Speaker:The Yorkshire Schools Exploring Society had been going for, I think, over
Speaker:30 years at the time, had never had a disabled person on one of
Speaker:their trips. So I was a bit of a
Speaker:guinea pig, which I don't mind being if I have to be, but from
Speaker:the very beginning, it was a very different experience.
Speaker:The second thing that happened was the female leader that was supposed to be
Speaker:going on the trip withdrew her application shortly after I'd submitted mine.
Speaker:So I then had a choice of, right, okay, do I withdraw from the
Speaker:trip or should my mum come with me?
Speaker:As an 18 year old that was very bothered about her street cred,
Speaker:I wasn't really sure what I wanted, but my mom and I had a
Speaker:chat about it and we agreed that she would go as a female leader.
Speaker:And it was just the most amazing bonding experience that we'd had.
Speaker:But, yeah, in terms of planning, in terms of figuring out the logistics of
Speaker:being a disabled person, that was a really keen traveller.
Speaker:But also really needing to keep up with this non disabled group of people
Speaker:was quite a hard pill to swallow, if I'm completely honest.
Speaker:We travelled through the Sinai Desert on Camel, which was absolutely incredible,
Speaker:and then we learnt to scuba dive in the Red Sea, just off the
Speaker:coast of Egypt. So both of those things quite physically
Speaker:taxing activities, and I'm really proud to say that I did both of them,
Speaker:but I vividly remember going back to either the hotel or the campsite every
Speaker:night and just getting really upset from being so exhausted.
Speaker:So I think this idea of how we balance our focus of our capabilities
Speaker:and limitations and whether that builds confidence and understanding or actually
Speaker:stops us from doing things is such a powerful thing to think and talk
Speaker:about as disabled people. And that it definitely taught me that
Speaker:on that trip.
Speaker:Amazing. Yeah.
Speaker:And it's just the life experience. And then I guess you can take
Speaker:the negatives from things, but to be able to put yourself in the mindset
Speaker:of what were the positives, what did I bring away from this?
Speaker:And I'm sure that the society that you went with have probably learned
Speaker:lessons themselves and hopefully will implement those lessons for future trips
Speaker:if they can welcome more people that are wheelchair users on trips.
Speaker:Absolutely. And if nothing else, I have learned
Speaker:how to fashion a commode out of a plastic schoolchair very very well!
Speaker:Oh, my word. That will come in handy if you
Speaker:ever go to a music festival, I think, as well, that's for everyone that!
Speaker:Let's keep it inclusive. But amazing.
Speaker:It's just incredible. And do you feel that that gave
Speaker:you more confidence in your abilities as well?
Speaker:Because you pushed yourself through that? And do you think that more people
Speaker:should try and push themselves to experience those types of things as well?
Speaker:Like not focus on the limitations I guess?
Speaker:Yeah, that's a really good question. I think if we're being completely honest,
Speaker:disability is still seen as pretty undesirable by society.
Speaker:We're seen as a bit of a hindrance, a bit of a burden.
Speaker:And there's this binary, isn't there, of you're either superhuman and inspirational
Speaker:or you're a benefit scrounger and you can't contribute to society.
Speaker:And I think what travel in general has done for me is really teach
Speaker:me that, hey, disabled people, we're just people that want to get by, want
Speaker:to have good experiences, want to have equitable experiences to our nondisabled
Speaker:peers. And travel is something that has made
Speaker:me realise how privileged I am in so many other areas of my life,
Speaker:how I can use the qualities that I have to help others build empathy
Speaker:within myself, but help build empathy around disability as well.
Speaker:And, yeah, it's helped me realise that I do have many capabilities and I
Speaker:do have flaws and limitations just like anybody else.
Speaker:And really what we should be aiming for is a middle ground between the
Speaker:two, because we don't want pity, we don't want special treatment, and really,
Speaker:the only way to do that is to normalise everything as much as
Speaker:possible. So, yeah, I think it's been really
Speaker:powerful for me. Amazing.
Speaker:And it's just to keep things fair, because I think that a quote that
Speaker:I really love, is that we or people are disabled by their environment.
Speaker:It's not that you "have a disability" that's stopping you from you could do
Speaker:things if the environment was made accessible to you.
Speaker:So, yeah, it's just really powerful stuff. It really is, and it's great to hear about.
Speaker:Not at all! So thank you for sharing that.
Speaker:And I guess because this is more of a business podcast, I'm going to
Speaker:move back now into sort of your current role at Mima.
Speaker:And would you mind letting me know about how your journey there began?
Speaker:Because I think you've mentioned that you weren't always working in an employed role?
Speaker:Yep, that's right.
Speaker:So I started off in access consultancy, honestly, as a bit of a fluke.
Speaker:So finished university, studied a master's degree in disability
Speaker:studies, which was all around the politics and policy of disability.
Speaker:It was fascinating learning about that theory and that all important history.
Speaker:And whilst this was going on, I had volunteered at the London 2012
Speaker:Paralympic Games, been involved in the wheelchair fencing, which I knew nothing
Speaker:about, and I had to learn a lot about on the job, which was
Speaker:amazing. And the British Consulate then got in
Speaker:touch with me out in Rio de Janeiro where they were having the next
Speaker:games in 2016, and invited me to go out there to talk a little
Speaker:bit about how NGOs but also, businesses could make themselves a little bit more
Speaker:accessible and inclusive ahead of the games, where all of these tourists and
Speaker:athletes were going to be descending on the city.
Speaker:And I was giving a talk somewhere and there was a guy in the
Speaker:middle of the audience that at the end of my chat, stood up and
Speaker:basically said, "Hi, I work for Metro Rio, the underground transport system in
Speaker:Rio de Janeiro, and we'd like to interview you for a job.
Speaker:We desperately need some accessibility help prior to the Games because, of
Speaker:course, locals, tourists, athletes are going to be using our underground system
Speaker:to get there." So I was very fortunate to get
Speaker:that role and spent the next two years on and off, living and working
Speaker:in Rio and doing a little bit of work in the UK on the
Speaker:side. And then after that and after the
Speaker:games came back to the UK and continued my accessibility consultancy,
Speaker:whether that was with disability awareness charities, whether it was with small to
Speaker:medium sized businesses who were maybe owned by families.
Speaker:Who really wanted to do some good stuff in terms of accessibility, but
Speaker:didn't necessarily have the time or the budget to go out to tender, for
Speaker:example, and things like that. So that was really amazing.
Speaker:I absolutely loved it. And then I ended up working at
Speaker:Mima through a contact of mine, Phil Nutley, that works at Mima, as head
Speaker:of Innovation. We met each other in Rio and
Speaker:there was an opening and he invited me to go and speak to them.
Speaker:So, yeah, that was just really a stroke of luck all round, but it's
Speaker:been so fulfilling and enriching to work in such an important field
Speaker:and selfishly be bettering the world for myself at the same time.
Speaker:So that's been great. And at Mima, really, the main things
Speaker:that we focus on is built environment accessibility, where we support
Speaker:architectural or wider design teams on big master plan projects.
Speaker:So I'm currently working with numerous airports, museums and actually at a couple
Speaker:of global events as well. We also do quite a lot of
Speaker:access auditing. We also facilitate and recruit lived
Speaker:experience user groups, which is amazing. So getting people with different
Speaker:impairments and access requirements to talk about certain designs, they often
Speaker:have quite opposing requirements and preferences, so it's really interesting to
Speaker:work out that compromise. And we've also started to deliver a
Speaker:fair bit of training around disability awareness as well, so that's the bulk
Speaker:of what we do.
Speaker:Amazing. Yeah.
Speaker:So it touches almost all areas, really, doesn't it?
Speaker:It's great. And hearing you speak about what you're
Speaker:doing. And I know that we've mentioned before
Speaker:that you still do work in the digital accessibility space and you're
Speaker:currently sort of gaining more as you go.
Speaker:But the similarities between the two from me, an outsider looking in, are just
Speaker:humongous. Because, like you're saying, with
Speaker:employing user groups for different user experience to get any additional needs
Speaker:they may have or their experience to learn from that.
Speaker:And I recently had an experience, I managed to go to the Google's
Speaker:Accessibility Discovery Centre in London. Coool! And a key thing that
Speaker:Chris there said was that you need to make accidents, you need to have
Speaker:mistakes to learn from them and then to grow.
Speaker:And by putting your product in front of someone and saying, break it, that's
Speaker:the best way that you can do it.
Speaker:And I suppose we're only going to learn from those sort of mistakes and
Speaker:things. And it's having the impetus, having the
Speaker:awareness and then ability to put things right, or at least try and help
Speaker:towards that. From my perspective, I'm thinking of an
Speaker:application or a watch or a phone in general for Google or a website,
Speaker:but you can really put that to anything when it comes to barriers for
Speaker:people.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And that's the thing. I mean.
Speaker:So it brings me on to the next question, which I've rephrased about
Speaker:15 times, and I've got it here in front of me, and it still
Speaker:doesn't make sense in my head, but I just wanted to so we spoke
Speaker:briefly about this before I started recording this episode, and I don't like
Speaker:to put words in people's mouths. I don't like to make people or give
Speaker:people an identity. But I wanted to get your opinion
Speaker:as someone with lived experience or someone that is a wheelchair user.
Speaker:How do you think we can break down that barrier between people that
Speaker:would consider themselves 'able bodied' with no, they don't experience any
Speaker:accessibility barriers in their day to day life.
Speaker:How do you think that we can convey, "this is what I'm experiencing"
Speaker:because it's equally as hard to get into someone's head that is experiencing
Speaker:things. Everyone experiences life in a different
Speaker:way, so it's opening people's minds to, this is how difficult it is for
Speaker:me to do this and it shouldn't be.
Speaker:But here's a solution. Like, how do we get people in
Speaker:that mindset?
Speaker:Yeah, it's such a good and almost impossible question.
Speaker:You're welcome. Hahaha!
Speaker:One of the most impactful things that I've ever learned is
Speaker:from a charity called Enhance, the UK disability awareness charity that I used
Speaker:to work for. And in their disability awareness
Speaker:training, they say that disability is the most fluid
Speaker:minority that exists. And the fact of the matter is
Speaker:that whether we like it or not, each and every one of us will
Speaker:experience disability at some point in our lives, hopefully through age or injury.
Speaker:But, hey, you never know what will happen.
Speaker:And that makes it scary for people. It makes people want to run away
Speaker:from it, because who would want to face something that they know is going
Speaker:to happen to them? But I think the best way to
Speaker:think about it is to start thinking about, instead of disabled and nondisabled
Speaker:people; disabled and not yet disabled people.
Speaker:And if we can start changing that rhetoric in society, hopefully
Speaker:we will get people with a little bit more intention and thought and care
Speaker:and interest in this field. I found from so many different people
Speaker:that I work with professionally or personally, that once they start to really
Speaker:understand what we do as accessibility consultants, whether physically, socially,
Speaker:digitally, they really get excited about it and invested in it.
Speaker:And you may have stories of your own here, but I think what we
Speaker:need to do, without putting too much duty and emotional labour on access
Speaker:consultants or disabled people, is we need to try our best to open that
Speaker:world a little bit more. Because it's only by being curious and
Speaker:asking questions and seeing what might happen tomorrow or in the future that
Speaker:people are going to start getting interested, excited and invested in what
Speaker:we do. And I think that counts, regardless of
Speaker:what sort of accessibility field you're in, what sort of impairment or access
Speaker:requirement you have. I think that's what we need to
Speaker:do. Definitely!
Speaker:And I've said multiple times before, in conversations on here or in person with
Speaker:people, that it is, I think, entirely mindset driven.
Speaker:You need to have that mindset, maybe the empathy.
Speaker:And I've oftentimes thought, as a recruitment consultant in the space, I'm
Speaker:trying to think who are the types of people that would fit within this
Speaker:field? And a lot of people will say,
Speaker:well, empaths people with empathy. And a lot of people that have
Speaker:experienced some form of disability or impairment tend to have more empathy for
Speaker:others because they've got their own experience of it.
Speaker:And some people would say the male vs female divide, but I've not seen any
Speaker:evidence of stark difference at all in my world, anyway, but;
Speaker:there's an amazing lady called Helen Wilson and she is doing an awful
Speaker:lot to push for education on accessibility and disability at key
Speaker:stage two level in schools, primary education.
Speaker:And I think that that is such a wonderful idea to think, well, as
Speaker:soon as you open up children's minds to this, they will have had an
Speaker:experience, they would have learned a bit more.
Speaker:I mean, it's not in every classroom you have someone with an impairment or
Speaker:a disability, is it? So to just have that as part
Speaker:of your syllabus, it's going to ingrain that.
Speaker:So as they go to higher education, college, university, entering the world of
Speaker:work, they will have that mindset of, but if it doesn't work for me,
Speaker:it's not going to work for other people.
Speaker:But also thinking about, well, what could someone experience that?
Speaker:How else can I design this? What a great idea.
Speaker:That's really cool. And I think the more that education
Speaker:happens, the less that fear factor surrounding disability is embedded.
Speaker:I go around the supermarket and a little child comes up to me and
Speaker:says, "oh, you're in a pram too!" for example.
Speaker:They might say something like that and the parents shoe them away and go,
Speaker:don't be rude. Like, that's an awful thing to say.
Speaker:Hush hush. And it's not rude or awful at
Speaker:all. They're finding common ground with
Speaker:something that they know and they're wanting to talk to me about it.
Speaker:And that's beautiful and that's lovely. Innocent too.. Yeah!
Speaker:And if they have questions, I'm more than happy to answer them.
Speaker:And I think that fear that we get as we get older is
Speaker:so apparent when it comes to disability. So apparent.
Speaker:And as much as we can minimise and reverse that the better.
Speaker:Yeah, 100%. And to touch on something else you've
Speaker:said, which I know that you've mentioned it was through, is it enhanced UK
Speaker:most fluid sort of thing that's going to everyone will experience it.
Speaker:That also brings me on to the Microsoft design toolkit, which mentions
Speaker:temporary permanent situational barriers. So someone with a hearing impairment or
Speaker:who is deaf or hard of hearing, they have a permanent sort of barrier
Speaker:that they experience. Although if you get a hearing infection
Speaker:or you get tinnitus or something like that, you're also a bit sensitive to
Speaker:sound. You might need to use captions on
Speaker:your phone because you can't bear having the noise on, or you might be
Speaker:a bartender and you can't currently hear what someone's ordering, so it's best that
Speaker:they write it down. So it is for everyone.
Speaker:And I think that that's the divide that doesn't need to exist.
Speaker:It's not able bodied and disabled, it is genuinely if you create something with
Speaker:accessibility in mind, it's good for everyone.
Speaker:You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.
Speaker:I so often hear new parents in particular, saying, oh, I've just had to
Speaker:go around london with my newborn baby in a pram.
Speaker:And, oh, I get it now. I really understand it, and I get
Speaker:it know, with that temporary or situational, quote unquote, impairment of
Speaker:having a child in a buggie and having to navigate an environment that
Speaker:wasn't built for that, suddenly, yeah, okay, right.
Speaker:I understand it now. And I'm an advocate and I'm an
Speaker:ally and yeah, that's normally how it goes.
Speaker:I think it's just that awareness, isn't it?
Speaker:Just trying to hopefully we'll do that with this.
Speaker:Even just thinking that, like, yeah, well, I won't park up on a curb
Speaker:because people need to get by, like, something as simple as that.
Speaker:And we might make someone's day by creating space.
Speaker:Totally amazing. Okay, cool.
Speaker:Sorry to spin back again. So your work is primarily within the
Speaker:sort of physical and social accessibility space, but there is quite an invisible
Speaker:or thin line between the two with digital accessibility.
Speaker:So we've already discussed that. Being that this is a podcast around
Speaker:digital, could you give us an insight? So we've heard a lot of people's
Speaker:backgrounds, what they're currently doing day to day in the digital accessibility space.
Speaker:But I know you've mentioned you've done some work with global events or with
Speaker:museums. Is there anything that you can sort
Speaker:of let us know? What was a typical day?
Speaker:What were you sort of needing to do?
Speaker:Absolutely. And I think when it comes to
Speaker:digital accessibility, hands up immediately.
Speaker:I am not a digital access expert. I am very much learning.
Speaker:This is almost like the third pillar that I'm learning a little bit as
Speaker:I go. But the thing that's really important to
Speaker:us at Mima and the thing that really, I guess, anchors my working day,
Speaker:whether I'm thinking about physical, social or digital access is the end
Speaker:to end journey and the end to end experience for both customer and
Speaker:colleagues. So I'll give you a digital access
Speaker:example. Whilst I could never go into the
Speaker:back end of a website and make sure that it's accessible in terms of
Speaker:WCAG 2.1 or anything like that, level AA! What I do do
Speaker:a lot, when thinking about that end to end journey and that end to
Speaker:end experience is think about, right, okay, I've got somebody here who I'm
Speaker:designing for. They're autistic, and they might
Speaker:specifically need a quiet space within this museum that I'm working with.
Speaker:So I might want to think about how we can design that in physically.
Speaker:I might also want to look at how the acoustics are working within this
Speaker:place to make sure that quiet areas are possible, just within the communal
Speaker:areas, wherever possible. Lighting might also be a really big
Speaker:issue. Is there independence over dimming that
Speaker:brightening it, etcetera? What about the opening hours of the
Speaker:museum and whether or not they can provide some quieter hours or some
Speaker:specific tours? What about the colour palette in the
Speaker:space? Can it be calming
Speaker:and neutral, whilst also being contrasting enough for a blind or partially sighted
Speaker:person to be able to navigate the same space.
Speaker:So they're all quite physical and social operational thoughts, but
Speaker:where digital access comes in for me is, I think, right, okay, so this
Speaker:museum does offer specific neurodiversity friendly opening
Speaker:hours, for example. Right, that's great, but how are people
Speaker:going to know about that? There needs to be some kind of
Speaker:accessibility guide or some kind of advertising information available online
Speaker:to allow somebody to familiarise and pretool themselves with the space.
Speaker:Okay, right. They might not still have the confidence
Speaker:to actually go to the museum and experience it within these hours.
Speaker:What else could we do? Maybe we could provide a 360 degree
Speaker:video tour of the space that would allow that person, from their comfort of
Speaker:their own home, to build that familiarity and confidence around visiting.
Speaker:If somebody's presenting in that video, we need to make sure that it's captioned
Speaker:for somebody who's deaf or has hearing loss.
Speaker:We might also want to provide some kind of transcript or audio description as
Speaker:well. So you can see how from a
Speaker:main focus in physical and operational accessibility, quite often my work does
Speaker:merge into the digital access space, but very much from a front end perspective.
Speaker:Looking at that end to end experience, what will that visitor or colleague need
Speaker:to have in the digital space to make them utilise the physical space?
Speaker:That's how I would say I work it.
Speaker:Wow. As soon as everything just seems so
Speaker:familiar and I'm sure that anyone that listens to this episode will go, oh,
Speaker:yeah, that's what I do, but just with the HTML and CSS or WAI-ARIA
Speaker:Although it just goes straight over.
Speaker:My head, does that bit. So I do need somebody with that
Speaker:wonderful technical expertise to teach me.
Speaker:I'm sure that there's plenty of people out there and I'm sure there's plenty
Speaker:that would love to work with you as well
Speaker:so, obviously I've got another point because I always seem to ramble.
Speaker:I spoke to another lady who was working for the Ministry of justice and
Speaker:they were working on visual. So, like VR experiences for people that
Speaker:need to attend court to familiarise themselves with the surroundings.
Speaker:So when they arrive at court, there's obviously tonnes and tonnes of pressure
Speaker:and stress, be it that you're being convicted or if you are a victim
Speaker:or you're in the jury, you may have anxiety going into those sorts of
Speaker:situations. So to at least familiarise yourself ahead
Speaker:of time, at least you've got that under the belt.
Speaker:And then the other pressures of being in a courtroom, the whole authority figure
Speaker:and stuff like that, it freaks me out.
Speaker:So I can understand. And what a great thing to think.
Speaker:That's amazing! to put in place. If it's one less barrier, then it's
Speaker:doing the right thing, I think, isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah, that's amazing. And also from quite a
Speaker:socioeconomic, class perspective that's really interesting as well, because the
Speaker:legal justice system in general is obviously known for being pretty elitist
Speaker:and I guess almost taking advantage of that
Speaker:technical knowledge that a lot of people don't have.
Speaker:I wouldn't have a clue of what to do if suddenly I was asked
Speaker:to go to court. I wouldn't know what processes happen, and
Speaker:I think only a very select few do.
Speaker:So from a kind of wider human nature, human characteristics perspective,
Speaker:that's really fascinating as well. It benefits so much more than
Speaker:accessibility elements.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly. And I think I'm now thinking, well,
Speaker:if you were taken to court and because of the additional anxiety, because
Speaker:of the additional nerves, you don't represent yourself in the way you normally
Speaker:would have if you were being interviewed elsewhere, rather than having this big
Speaker:audience around you and the jury and the judge.
Speaker:It makes it a fairer trial. And that should be something that is
Speaker:considered globally, isn't it?
Speaker:So cool! Yeah.
Speaker:And just daily, you wouldn't think about it until you're in that situation.
Speaker:You wouldn't, would you? So it's just another fascinating topic.
Speaker:So, cool. I mean, I'm about to probably bore
Speaker:you and everyone else with a bunch of acronyms and numbers and letters, and
Speaker:it's going to do me wonders when I'm writing the captions and the
Speaker:transcript later. But within digital accessibility, there
Speaker:are various guidelines or regulations and standards to refer back to, or that
Speaker:you may have to try and implement or you can use as collateral when
Speaker:people are asking you, "But why? Why do we need to do this?"
Speaker:Such as WCAG or the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines or the WCAG.
Speaker:Just because I hate myself ISO 30071-1 and
Speaker:BS 8878, or the extremely accessible EN 301 549
Speaker:in Europe. There's also Section 508 or the ADA
Speaker:in the US. So, this is going to be really
Speaker:fun later, but I'd like to know a bit more about the sort of
Speaker:standards and regulations in place for the physical or social side of accessibility.
Speaker:I think that Craig Abbot in the last episode mentioned around the
Speaker:cognitive side of accessibility, there's more stuff being written by the W3C
Speaker:But on physical side, is it like
Speaker:the Disability Act or are there more regulations that we should be aware of?
Speaker:So.
Speaker:The legal side of things very much stems from the Equality Act 2010 that
Speaker:really imposes a public sector equality duty on businesses to foster good
Speaker:relations, to eliminate any kind of discrimination and advance equal
Speaker:opportunity. But you cannot say that you comply
Speaker:with the Equality Act because it's a rights based act, it's not a standard.
Speaker:So when people say that that's incorrect in terms of standards
Speaker:and legalities, you would then look to building regulations, Approved Document M.
Speaker:And that very much provides what I think most accessibility consultants would
Speaker:now consider quite a basic baseline in terms of
Speaker:built environment accessibility, but it very much still provides that collateral.
Speaker:Why, as you mentioned earlier, which is still important, sadly still, we're often
Speaker:the no people in the room that we have to prove our reasoning in
Speaker:terms of good and better Practise. You'd be then looking at BS 8300 (BS 8300-2:2018),
Speaker:parts one and two, looking at the external and the internal environments.
Speaker:Again, very much built environment, but provides very much a more aspirational
Speaker:best Practise view on built environment accessibility than approved document M
Speaker:does. It's more updated and it's just that
Speaker:kind of level up, but very interestingly. And I don't know if the same
Speaker:is true with digital access, but very much depending on the sector that you're
Speaker:working in is where that best practice lies.
Speaker:So if I'm working with a transport client or I'm looking to go to
Speaker:planning committee within something in the urban realm, I'd look at the Department
Speaker:for Transport's inclusive mobility document, for example, which was released
Speaker:last year and provides some really good level of built environment stuff,
Speaker:specifically around the areas of mobility, parking, urban realm.
Speaker:There's an amazing new PAS that's just come out, PAS 6463, which is
Speaker:all around Neurodiversity and design for the mind.
Speaker:So you might again want to go into an airport, for example, and you've
Speaker:got all your built environment ideals and principles there, but you might just want
Speaker:to make some tweaks to things like the colour palette, the lighting, the
Speaker:acoustics, to make sure it's more accessible for neurodivergent individuals.
Speaker:There's also some really good standards coming out and work still being done
Speaker:around electric vehicle charging, because, as I'm sure you know, a lot
Speaker:of chargers came out that were totally inaccessible!
Speaker:So there's quite a lot of retrofitting work being done at the moment.
Speaker:So, yeah, it really does depend on the sector that you're working in.
Speaker:And quite a lot of organisations are now bringing out their own built
Speaker:environment processes and policies, which is really cool too.
Speaker:Quite often the hardest thing is knowing which one to choose and which one
Speaker:almost trumps the other.
Speaker:Yeah. Wow.
Speaker:Oh, my God. And I guess you're only going to
Speaker:know about those if you know about them or if you're looking for them.
Speaker:I suppose so I'm thinking about a friend of mine, he's an interior architect
Speaker:or an interior designer, and I'm wondering if he would have known about if
Speaker:he has to consider these things, especially like you say, the colour
Speaker:palette and things. I guess if you're being paid to
Speaker:design for a specific person and they're paying you up front, but if it's
Speaker:designing government buildings or public spaces, then there should be that in
Speaker:place. And I'm assuming that people that work
Speaker:in that area will be working towards those standards.
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's quite interesting. So in terms of what they would
Speaker:have to kind of look at and make sure they're aligned with, it would
Speaker:be your approved document M, it would be your fire regulations, for example.
Speaker:And I think you're absolutely right. It's often then a bit of a
Speaker:battle between the baseline and the aspirational or the shall and the should,
Speaker:if you like. Yes, you must do this.
Speaker:And we're going to tick these boxes for a lack of a better term.
Speaker:But how are we going to encourage that client, that design team, whatever it
Speaker:might be, to go up a few stages, to look at the PAS on
Speaker:designing for the mind and really start thinking about the nuances of this stuff?
Speaker:Because that's not in your building regs. So, yeah, quite a lot of my
Speaker:job, a lot of the time is pushing that aspiration wherever I can.
Speaker:And I'm sure it's the same in digital access as well.
Speaker:Yeah, I think, to be honest, a lot of digital what I'm hearing about
Speaker:digital accessibility is that they are guidelines.
Speaker:The things that they depend upon are still known as guidelines.
Speaker:So when you're still trying at that stage, trying to get the buy-in
Speaker:from the decision makers in a business to say, yes, okay, we'll spend money
Speaker:on making this accessible for the additional 15% of the population, or
Speaker:to ensure that there are people willing to spend the purple pound and tap
Speaker:into that market... If that's what tickles your fancy and
Speaker:it's purely money driven, then great, as long as it's being built accessible for
Speaker:everyone. And then the pushback is always but
Speaker:do we have to? Not always, sorry, I shouldn't say always, but a lot
Speaker:of the time, "how important is it? We need to get this released.
Speaker:We've got a deadline. We've already spent x amount.
Speaker:We need to get the app out there so people are using it.
Speaker:We need to come a return on investment.
Speaker:Can we do it later?" And it's like, yeah, you can, but
Speaker:it was 60 times more expensive to put it right.
Speaker:And you'd have p***ed a lot of people off in the process.
Speaker:Absolutely. Exactly.
Speaker:And no one will return it's. The reputational risk as well.
Speaker:So there's a lot of argument for definitely.
Speaker:But then I just feel that there are certain times where people will just
Speaker:say, but I'm not going to get sued and I'm doing okay as it
Speaker:is, so why? And it's again building that empathy and
Speaker:hopefully with the new generation of kids that are learning from Helen Wilson's
Speaker:stuff, it will be ingrained in everyone. Amazing.
Speaker:All good. And so, obviously, I'm a recruitment
Speaker:consultant, as you know, I may have tried to poach you in the past
Speaker:or try to work with you and Mima, but we'll leave that there!
Speaker:But I wanted to know what your experience has been of job hunting.
Speaker:Is there a certain place you would go to look for work?
Speaker:I know that you've mentioned that you've had people approach you in this respect,
Speaker:but interview processes, do you feel the obligation to make it apparent on
Speaker:your CV or profile that you are a wheelchair user?
Speaker:Or should it entirely be the responsibility of the hirer to say, we
Speaker:will make reasonable adjustments, we just need to know what you need, what's
Speaker:your experience been in that sort of space?
Speaker:It's really really interesting that it's a great question.
Speaker:And the only thing that's going through my mind is I would do exactly
Speaker:the same thing as I used to do on my Tinder profile, dating and
Speaker:Job applications, similar things" What swiping right?
Speaker:And really, that is to say that I feel very fortunate in a strange
Speaker:way that I have such a visible impairment because it makes it very easy
Speaker:to say, right, okay, I'm going to need accessible parking, please step free
Speaker:access, and an accessible toilet. And then I'm grand.
Speaker:And I think the difficulty with disclosure still comes when people have non visible
Speaker:impairments. There is a real lack of understanding
Speaker:of empathy, of acceptance around that. These individuals are constantly having to
Speaker:justify what their requirements are and why.
Speaker:And there is very little done around providing appropriate, reasonable
Speaker:adjustments, whether that's at the interview process or in terms of progress
Speaker:and retainment and what's the word? Promotion.
Speaker:Promotion.
Speaker:Don't know why I didn't get that. I think that's often the real difficulty.
Speaker:And I feel very fortunate that I've not had to have that experience because
Speaker:I've got many friends that have. And it's not pleasant constantly feeling
Speaker:like you've got to justify things and ask for things.
Speaker:So I do absolutely think that in many ways, the onus is on the
Speaker:employer to state that they actively encourage applications from lots of
Speaker:different people with different protective characteristics.
Speaker:But it's about making sure that that process in itself is accessible.
Speaker:It's stress free. Whether you are holding an interview in
Speaker:person or online, have you made sure that that environment, that platform is
Speaker:accessible and caters to the requirements of your interviewee?
Speaker:And quite a lot of the time it sounds so common sense and so
Speaker:simple. But that's because it is.
Speaker:It's about asking rather than assuming. It's about having the confidence to email
Speaker:someone and go, right, okay, is there anything that you need from me?
Speaker:And I think if we normalised that, regardless of who the person is, what
Speaker:they've put on their profile, be it Tinder or a job application, if we
Speaker:normalise that and we asked everybody if they had any kind of accessibility
Speaker:requirements, if there's any adjustments that we can make actually, this strange
Speaker:thing about how do we encourage disclosure would pretty much disappear.
Speaker:Because you are giving people the platform to share with you what they require,
Speaker:and you're encouraging it in a positive way that makes them feel comfortable, like
Speaker:there won't be any negative repercussions if they do.
Speaker:So, yeah, make it commonplace and standard practise.
Speaker:And I think it is. You're not offending anyone by asking.
Speaker:But I think that there is that fear that we mentioned earlier that even
Speaker:just by asking you may offend and that's the last thing most people want
Speaker:to do. Unfortunately, recruitment is such a
Speaker:humongous business and there's a lot of people that do it a certain way
Speaker:and sometimes what I would call the wrong way.
Speaker:And it is just oh, you've got keywords on your CV.
Speaker:I'll send the CV out, you should be great and then the rest is
Speaker:up to you and that's just not how it should be done.
Speaker:But unfortunately, it happens quite a lot of the time and I was assuming
Speaker:then, because I know when we first met, it was on a video call
Speaker:and it was only when you mentioned, oh, I'm a wheelchair user, I went,
Speaker:Are you? So if I were hiring you and
Speaker:interviewing you and hadn't thought of asking you, but every interview was video
Speaker:call and then at the end of the process, I've offered you the job,
Speaker:I'm like, oh, cool. So we're based on the 23rd floor
Speaker:and there's no lift access. We meet three times a week in
Speaker:London. You'd go: "Ahh I wish you would have
Speaker:mentioned that at the beginning!" which again is the onus on the employer.
Speaker:But then they should have just asked. They should have asked at the beginning.
Speaker:So, yeah, no, brilliant, okay, I'll definitely bear that in mind.
Speaker:And we do so we have a diversity, equity and inclusion statement.
Speaker:We make sure we put that at the bottom of every single job spec
Speaker:that we write and advertise. So obviously we want to advertise to
Speaker:everyone. Everyone is absolutely welcome to apply
Speaker:and we do have sort of set questions that we have to ask and
Speaker:the awkwardness also includes, do you have any unspent criminal convictions?
Speaker:It's still something we need to ask, but someone might think, why are you
Speaker:making that assumption? But if it's common Practise and every
Speaker:recruitment consultant asks that question, there's no need to get offended.
Speaker:But yeah, it's one of those things. Hopefully we'll change the world after
Speaker:this one episode, Hahaha! But cool..
Speaker:So, it's been amazing. Final thoughts at the minute!
Speaker:So if there's anything that you want to share, anything of importance to you,
Speaker:anything you'll be doing coming up, or any events that you might be going
Speaker:to, then feel free to let everyone know.
Speaker:Oh, that's really interesting. I have a couple of really really cool
Speaker:engagements coming up, specifically looking at the accessibility of air
Speaker:travel, a few events that I've been invited to and also a few boards
Speaker:that I'm on. So that's going to be quite exciting,
Speaker:looking at that from a passenger perspective also with my consultancy head
Speaker:on as well. So I'm quite excited to see where
Speaker:that goes. Aside from that, I'm just trucking on!
Speaker:In all honesty, we're very busy, very thrilled and very grateful to be so.
Speaker:So if anybody is interested in chatting to me, either from a client perspective
Speaker:or from somebody who's interested in access consultancy and would love to
Speaker:learn more. I would absolutely be over the moon
Speaker:to chat with you.
Speaker:Amazing. And I'm sure that there'll be people
Speaker:chomping at the bit to speak to you because you're such a nice person
Speaker:to chat with and I've always loved chatting with you and I'm glad that
Speaker:we've had managed to do this today as well.
Speaker:So thank you. As part of the outro for each
Speaker:episode, I'd like to share a quote that might help inspire hopefully we've
Speaker:got plenty of quotes that you've made today that will inspire people, but just
Speaker:so that it's not all doom and gloom so: Marcus Osterberg is the author
Speaker:of Web Strategy for Everyone and he has written in there;
Speaker:"When speaking of disabilities, the blind and their needs are most often used
Speaker:as an example. It's deceivingly simplistic since
Speaker:accessibility is something most of the population can benefit from." Which I think
Speaker:leans back to the Microsoft Design Principles situation.
Speaker:But yeah, all good.
Speaker:That's really nice.
Speaker:Awesome. Thank you so much again.
Speaker:Really love chatting with you. I'm sure everyone else is going to
Speaker:love listening to this as well.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Thanks for the incredible work that you're doing at Mimer and beyond and I'm
Speaker:sure we'll catch up and chat again very soon.
Speaker:Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me
Speaker:and inviting me on. It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker:No problem at all. And yeah, we'll keep in touch.
Speaker:Take care.
Speaker:Thanks, Joe.
Speaker:Thanks once more to Emily for all her insight and sharing her experiences
Speaker:with me today. Just a reminder that PCR Digital are
Speaker:sponsoring Accessibility Scotland, which takes place on Friday, the 8th of
Speaker:September 2023. And I'll be there, so I'd love
Speaker:meet as many of you as possible. Hope you enjoyed the episode today and
Speaker:I'll catch you on the next one!
