Episode 13

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Published on:

30th Jan 2025

Mimouna Mahdaoui - Senior Manager Stepstone Group

Mimouna Mahdaoui is a Senior Manager for Product & Social Impact at The Stepstone Group. Join us as Mimouna (AKA: Mim) shares her journey into digital accessibility, the power of empathy over sympathy, and practical steps to build inclusion into products and culture. Discover insights on combating imposter syndrome, the curb cut effect, and managing burnout in accessibility.

Resource Links:

Mim's Social Media Links:

Joe's Social Media Links:

Transcript
Speaker:

Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.

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If you're looking to learn more about the field of

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accessibility,

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how to implement it within your role or your company,

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or to get advice on where to start or see how others have

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navigated complex issues that you may find along the way,

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then you're in the right place!

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I'm honored to be able to share these insightful chats with

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thought leaders,

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advocates and practitioners of digital accessibility

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throughout this podcast,

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and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.

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As always, thank you so much for listening,

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and I hope you enjoy the chat!

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Today, I'm joined by Mimouna Madaoui,

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a transformational leader specialising in creating

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inclusive products and partnerships.

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Mim, as she's also known as,

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is currently working with the Stepstone Group,

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which is a global online recruiting platform,

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which helps to connect talent with employers across over 30

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different countries.

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They have millions of users and are doing such important

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work to ensure that people are able to source the right job

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or career for them.

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Mim has created and delivered incredible accessibility

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workshops and labs for Stepstone staff and their external

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partners,

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which helps to ensure that there's a more ingrained

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understanding of accessibility throughout the organisation

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and beyond, which I hope we'll hear a bit more about today.

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So, welcome to the podcast, Mim.

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Thank you, Joe.

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Thank you for having me.

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You're more than welcome.

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Very pleased to have you here.

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I know we've met a couple of times in recent months.

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Techshare Pro, I think,

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was the last time we met at the evening.

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Yeah.

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And yeah,

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I think that that's where a lot of these questions sort of

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stemmed from.

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But for the listeners that may not have had the pleasure of

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speaking to you before or know what you do,

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could you just sort of share a bit about your journey and

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what led you to a career focused on building inclusive and

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accessible digital products?

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For sure.

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It's actually quite an interesting one,

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which is going to take me a couple of minutes to explain

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because nothing really prepared me to work on

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accessibility, I have to say.

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My background actually is in content marketing in SEO,

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particularly.

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So I started doing that many years ago now and did that for

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a couple of different businesses, one in education,

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one in travel, and I ended up at Total Jobs,

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which is part of the Stepstone Group nine years ago now,

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and really focusing on building content marketing

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campaigns, which were built on data and research primarily,

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and actually unconsciously, I guess,

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I delivered a lot of campaigns in relation to diversity and

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inclusion,

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which is not something we would call like that at the time,

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and a lot around workplace wellbeing as well.

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So we drove a lot of campaigns and media coverage as well

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in the UK, but also a little bit globally at times,

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luckily enough, I would say, around those employee topics,

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and there was really a range of subjects that we covered.

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There were things that were quite lighthearted, like,

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why does it matter to take your lunch break,

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all the way down to things such as emotions in the

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workplace,

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and anything that connects with a display of emotion,

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is it good or is it bad,

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and things in relation to also gender when it comes to

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that.

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And I have to say, by the way,

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men are far more emotional than women in the workplace,

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but I'll just leave it there.

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I agree.

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And then on the other end,

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we did much more advanced campaigns, I would say,

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in terms of the topics and the framing of those topics.

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So a lot around gender equality, masking in the workplace,

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trans-employee inclusion, and so on.

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So there was really a range.

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And actually,

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one of the last campaigns that I've worked on in this role

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for Stepstone was the Gender Bias Decoder,

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which was a project that we did to identify in job-adverts

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terminology that may be off-putting to women in particular,

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but not only.

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And that really came at the end of my journey in content,

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but opening that door for diversity and inclusion in my

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role.

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So looking back in 2020,

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we had a combination of the pandemic,

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the Black Lives Matter movement picking up globally,

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that acronym of DE&I becoming the very trendy thing for

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businesses.

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And that basically shaped how my role changed.

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So alongside that,

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I worked with colleagues in building our employee resource

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groups internally.

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So there was really this momentum in a way.

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And basically, a few months later,

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and really kicking off in the start of 2022,

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my role really changed to become basically a partner for

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all of my products and tech colleagues, which are many,

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in trying to build more inclusion in the product

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development processes.

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So making sure that when we say we want everyone to find

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the right job as a business,

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everyone really means everyone.

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So that's basically what got me there.

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The primary focus at the start,

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because that was the familiar area,

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was around gender equality.

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But beyond that, we looked at things in relation to,

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for example, social mobility as well a little bit,

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and then accessibility just took all of my time,

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which is a good thing.

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Indeed, yeah.

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I mean,

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it's such a complex and nuanced sort of area to be focusing

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on, so I guess it keeps you very much very busy.

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Absolutley, I'm not bored!

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It's good to hear it and it's interesting.

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Obviously I work in the recruitment space and and use some

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of the Stepstone groups products and what you've mentioned

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about the the gender bias decoder We have something similar

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on one of our sort of distribution platforms for our job

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specs.

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And it's something that we're very conscious of to make

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sure that it's neutral.

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Some people might misread that as "Everything has to be,

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you know,

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going towards quotas or or aimed purely at people in

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minority groups" But actually it's just just just cutting

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out all of the noise and making sure that it's you know it

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speaks to everyone like you said and that means absolutely

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everyone.

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So no, it's really good.

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Sorry to teach you to suck eggs and tell you everything you

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already know.

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But it's just yes,

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it's interesting to me obviously being in that space

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It's nice to hear from a recruiter actually that it's

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something that you pay attention to as well.

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Yeah well we try and pride ourselves on that and I mean it

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would be I'd be such a hypocrite if I didn't.

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Working to try and help in the accessibility space so yeah

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thank you!

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Awesome and then so we've mentioned um we've spoken

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obviously a few times and we mentioned about the ingrained

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feeling of imposter syndrome not just within

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accessibility, as

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I know that's mostly been your focus over the last two

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years, but but across all professions as well.

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So um have you,

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could you (if you don't mind) would you explain any

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experience you've had with that transitioning obviously

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between different roles and different focus areas?

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And why you think it might be quite prevalent especially

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within accessibility?

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Yeah, for sure.

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I mean,

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I struggled so much with imposter syndrome or phenomenon as

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it would be.

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That's one of the things I've learned over the years.

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I actually did a campaign back then about imposter

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phenomenon because I just wanted to get data and understand

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better what it meant and why I was having those feelings

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sometimes.

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And I think for me throughout my career,

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I sort of pin down the fact that sometimes I really feel

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like this fraud or I don't know anything about what I'm

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doing, which is primarily hard displays for me.

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It's not necessarily the case for everyone because nothing

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really prepared me for any of my jobs, actually,

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even the first one in content.

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I come from a background in trade and things in relation to

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exporting goods, logistics, regulations,

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and stuff like that.

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So nothing really got me there in a way that felt natural

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or normal,

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even though everything in my career progression actually

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really felt very natural and a logical kind of like

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progression overall.

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But I never learned other than learning on the job.

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I never really had people I could spar with as such in

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understanding, okay, how can I do my job better?

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It's been a lot of self-reflection over time,

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which is fine, but also gives you that sense of like,

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is it really right?

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How can I make sure that it's the right thing to do or the

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right way to approach a process or anything like that?

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So I think there's a lot that is down to what got us where

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we are and whether we can be having that feeling of

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satisfaction about what we actually do and how we can

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measure that success, whether it's a big or small success.

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But every win is a win for me,

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and especially in the world of accessibility.

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And I think for accessibility, it's particularly true that,

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and that's pretty much a consensus across the whole

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community.

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Accessibility is not taught at all or barely taught in

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university curriculums,

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in learning and development programs.

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It's barely there.

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So we really have to learn on the job, which I mean,

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it's a vast area.

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We can't learn it all,

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even though I'm sure lots of people have very, very,

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very deep knowledge because they've spent decades in this

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industry already.

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But a lot of people like me are quite new to this and

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there's so much to catch up on between the technical

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regulations, between the legislation now that we have,

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especially in Europe, between how you code,

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how you communicate, how to be inclusive in your events,

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in your workplace.

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There's so much that you could think about.

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And I think there's a difficulty for accessibility

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professionals in particular,

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not only because there's a lack of education in the most

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literal sense of it,

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but also there's a lot of misunderstanding what those roles

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are and what our job is ultimately,

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because what we tend to see is that, oh,

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there's an opening for an accessibility role.

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Now,

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I think you will have seen that in your own work experience

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at the moment, that if you have an accessibility role,

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you're not just a jack of all trades.

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You have to really do everything and know everything about

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all the possible areas of accessibility.

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So you see a job description and you go, okay,

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I need to have those skills in WCAG standards and I need to

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know the European legislation and I need to know the ADA

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and I know how to do remediation and I need to know how to

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do an audit and I also need to coach teams and I need to be

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able to present to the leadership team and I need to

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communicate and host those workshops and do the training

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and potentially have a break eventually.

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So it's like everything is clamped under that accessibility

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fit and ultimately what we also know is that in a lot of

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businesses, an accessibility team is one person,

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maybe three or four potentially,

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but it's very rare that there's an actual structured

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accessibility team in a lot of businesses,

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even the biggest ones.

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So I think there's a lot around that that doesn't help

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accessibility professionals also feeling not so much like a

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fraud and I think there's also a challenge in the fact that

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I think sometimes, most of the time,

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I would say 95% of the time,

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the community is super welcoming, very kind to one another.

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There's a lot of sharing experiences, sharing assets,

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understanding how we can learn from one another,

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sharing the wins, sharing the lowlights as well.

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But sometimes, and I've seen that a few times,

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especially on social media,

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there's a few people who just do not hesitate to shut down.

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And you would say, oh, I've got this screen today about,

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I don't know,

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one developer has actually applied the right type of

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semantic to a specific piece of a product,

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and then someone would go like, yeah,

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but every single other page on your website is bad.

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And there's very little to get this kind of feel-good

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moment,

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because there's always going to be an element that makes

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you feel like, oh, actually, I've not done enough,

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because someone will be nasty about it.

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Or you don't have someone to give you that validation,

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and not necessarily the part on the back, but tell you,

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this is important, that matters, and you're doing it well,

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even though you may not feel it.

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So I think there's a combination really of things,

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which is particularly true in the accessibility community,

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which definitely harms not necessarily the work that you

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do, but the confidence in yourself, simply.

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And I think that's one part where I'm super glad that the

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accessibility community, generally speaking,

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is so supportive.

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Because without that,

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I'm not sure I would be able to kind of feel so positive

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about the progress we're making,

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because at the Stepstone Group,

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I've always been very honest about that.

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We are making progress, but it's very slow,

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because we are really trying to build that culture around

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accessibility.

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And when you need to really count your wins and put those

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feelings that you are not necessarily feeling so great

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about yourself or your deliverables all the time,

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it can be very challenging.

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So there are some tactics to try and prevent feeling so

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much like an imposter.

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I've been very bad at following them.

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But there are some,

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and I really encourage people to at least,

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if you don't keep a record of all your wins,

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at least take the time sometimes to look at what you've

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just done and be like, OK, that's actually progress.

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And that's positive.

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And actually,

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someone came to me and asked me this question about

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something.

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So that means they trust me and what I say is valid type of

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thing.

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So that would be my main advice if I can give any sort of

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advice to anyone in this space.

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Oh, amazing.

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Well, I think, well, I mean,

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it seems you're doing really well.

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And that's what you when I gave you feedback from the

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accessibility lab that I was very honored to have been part

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of. It was very genuine praise as well.

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But then I think that that's also an issue when you're

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receiving praise.

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It's internalised, isn't it?

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It's something that, well, thank you.

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I appreciate that.

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But I don't feel that way.

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But actually,

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it's learning to accept the praise as well at times and

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being like, OK,

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and not putting everything else on a pedestal because

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everyone's probably struggling with the same sort of thing.

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And like you say,

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it's so widespread across the accessibility field that I

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know there's certifications and there's certain things that

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you can say, right, I've got this, you know,

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these letters or this badge that says I know what I'm

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talking about.

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But you know what,

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you know what you're talking about for the meantime.

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And then it's a continuous learning learning platform

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anyway, isn't it?

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Absolutely.

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We need to make mistakes to then learn from them so.

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Yeah, and that's absolutely right.

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And I think, generally speaking, that's one of the things,

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I think, as a society, we're quite bad at.

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And I think product and tech teams in many organisations,

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whether it's internally or also externally,

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have a look on LinkedIn.

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We share only about the wins.

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We rarely share about the failings or the parts that we are

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not doing so well about,

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which is exactly where we actually learn and can find ways

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to do better,

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find the feedback to actually cope and potentially do

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better.

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And we are so bad at, like you said,

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accepting the praise and just taking it like it is,

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not arguing that knowing your praise is not worth what I

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feel it should be in a way.

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And actually one of the experts I've worked with on

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imposter syndrome told me that there's something that she

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nailed as a little bit of arrogance that when you receive

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praise and you kind of deflect or say something that is

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like: "oh, it's not so true.

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And oh, I could do better" or something like that.

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She called that a level of arrogance in that,

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that is very typical to a lot of people who feel imposter

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feelings quite a lot.

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So that's actually quite interesting.

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But also, yeah,

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just trying to learn from those moments that are not so

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great and being able to communicate those,

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I think could help a lot of people feeling less like

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imposters because otherwise you only see the nice and

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bright and shiny things on social media and those big wins.

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And you go like, okay,

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there's no way I can achieve that even though you could,

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but you just always feel like you're way far from it and

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that's not helping anyone, I think.

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It's also true internally, so in larger organisations,

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I was having a conversation with someone,

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I'm not going to name drop them at the moment,

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but they may come up later,

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and they were saying they've got quite a small

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accessibility team, but they're a huge global organisation,

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you know,

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tens of thousands of employees and billions of users as

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well, so getting that commitment and that buy-in,

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but then having the praise,

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either externally if an external audit's been done or

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someone's come in and said, oh look,

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you're doing all of these things great,

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that doesn't then help to progress or self-preserve your

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role in that company because some of the decision makers

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might go, oh, we're already doing all this,

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so why do you need budget for another resource?

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Like, you're already doing such a good job,

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so just keep doing what you're doing and burn yourself out

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almost.

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So, it's a real catch-22, isn't it, I think, but yeah,

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I think it's nice to share the wins,

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but sometimes it might actually give you a bit more leeway

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to sort of hold back on it a bit and sort of...

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I completely agree.

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Yeah, but I mean,

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so another phrase that just jumps into my mind,

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and I've been thinking of renaming the podcast because as

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much as it says what it does on the tin,

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I think it's not very, I don't know,

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it's just not as fun as some other podcast names.

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And I don't know if this has been trademarked or who came

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up with it, but "progress over perfection".

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And I think that that's exactly what we always talk about

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on the podcast.

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So,

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and it is accepting that it's constant progress and we can

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strive for perfection,

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but it's nothing's ever going to be 100%.

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Absolutely.

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I think that's an important one to always keep in mind,

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actually.

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As long as we move forward, that's the biggest win,

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actually, of them all,

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is the disability to always move in that direction of more

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inclusion and more accessibility.

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Definitely, but awesome.

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Right, sorry,

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I think I sort of gave you about four more questions on the

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back of that one.

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So moving on to the next one,

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we also had a really cool chat about how important it is to

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let people know that there are so many accessibility

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features available and built specifically with people with

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disabilities in mind or impairments.

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But they are actually just so useful for absolutely

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everyone.

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So it's like a it doubles up on how incredible some of

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these things have been.

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Some people might know it as the curb cut effect,

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which was spoken about in a previous podcast episode.

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But do you think that that mindset can come into play and

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assist with the shifting of that culture when designing and

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developing new products or features for old products in

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moving forward?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I think so.

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For me,

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the curb cut effect is so great to introduce accessibility

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to a wider audience that is not just like product and

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techies.

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For one reason for that being that it really helps making

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sure people understand that accessibility is not just

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mystical, un

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achievable beast that is impossible to understand or

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achieve.

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The curb cut is everywhere.

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We all actually know that once you can put the name on it

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and understand the history of it,

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actually it really helps you understand, okay,

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there's something there that I've never really paid

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attention to, but helps me all the time.

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So the fact that it's like, it can be found everywhere.

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It's there all the time.

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And actually it's when it's missing that you actually

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notice it,

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I think it's quite interesting. And finally I think the

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curb cut is really good about is really helpful in making

471

:

people understand that accessibility is not about the

472

:

connections or charity.

473

:

It's about just better experiences for everyone.

474

:

So I know that in the workshops I've been hosting in the

475

:

past six months,

476

:

I always take the time to explain the curb cut.

477

:

And actually even before that,

478

:

when I got into the accessibility world,

479

:

I remember in a session with a crowd of engineers,

480

:

which was, I can't remember,

481

:

I think it was 200 engineers sitting in front of them

482

:

virtually.

483

:

And I was like, okay, let's do the curb cut.

484

:

And actually no one really knew about it,

485

:

which blew my mind in actually both positive and negative

486

:

ways.

487

:

But yeah, I think it just really,

488

:

really helps people shift their mentality when it comes to

489

:

that.

490

:

Actually, it's quite funny.

491

:

Yesterday I was on a call with two colleagues,

492

:

one UX designer and one working on our design system as a

493

:

developer.

494

:

And we were just chit-chatting at the start of the call.

495

:

And my colleague, Liam, who's a web developer,

496

:

mentioned that he hurt his shoulder and he was really

497

:

struggling with his arm.

498

:

And I made the joke.

499

:

Oh, how is it to work?

500

:

And how is using your laptop?

501

:

How easy is it to use your laptop at the moment?

502

:

And he was like, actually, really struggling.

503

:

I was like, ha, interesting you say that.

504

:

And then my other colleague, a senior UX designer, Denny,

505

:

mentioned that she went mountain climbing recently and her

506

:

legs are completely weak and very sore.

507

:

And she was making a joke about the fact that she needs to

508

:

control her food intake and liquid intake because her

509

:

bathroom is upstairs.

510

:

So she was really struggling with the stairs.

511

:

And I was again, like, ha,

512

:

how funny is it that we are on a meeting talking about

513

:

accessibility checklists today and how to provide better

514

:

experiences for our users?

515

:

But those jokes aside,

516

:

that's typically the kind of things that once I introduce

517

:

the concept of a curb cut, people start thinking, okay, oh,

518

:

this feature there is not just for me to make it easier

519

:

when I go to the airport,

520

:

or this feature there is not just that I can park my car

521

:

more easily.

522

:

It's actually there primarily for someone else,

523

:

but I never thought of that.

524

:

So I think the curb cuts really,

525

:

really helps simplifying the definition of accessibility

526

:

for a wider crowd.

527

:

And I think for when you think about it also from the

528

:

perspective of a lot of people don't necessarily disclose

529

:

their disability or an impairment or their neurodiversity,

530

:

really understanding that some features there,

531

:

you may not know who's using it,

532

:

but it's there for someone.

533

:

And you may never know that someone is there is really

534

:

important.

535

:

We know that especially in the workplace and the working

536

:

environment,

537

:

it's even more of a challenge for people to disclose

538

:

because obviously of the fear of discrimination or

539

:

repercussions when disclosing.

540

:

So building that culture where those curb cuts exist for

541

:

everyone in whichever manner that they can happen,

542

:

I think it's super important to really build that culture.

543

:

But I think for me,

544

:

there's even one more step that is super important,

545

:

which I think is,

546

:

is really my biggest challenge and kind of like opportunity

547

:

at the same time in my role.

548

:

Uh, and probably one of the reasons why I'm,

549

:

I'm smoking on making things work is when we get to the,

550

:

for this area of the world of work and employment,

551

:

I can make my product and tech teams build more

552

:

inclusively.

553

:

I can work with them, train them,

554

:

make sure that all platform is WCAG compliant,

555

:

whatever those tick boxes could be and checkpoints could

556

:

be.

557

:

But if ultimately when a candidate applies for a role on

558

:

our websites and they never get invited for interviews or

559

:

they'd never hear back from a recruiter.

560

:

That I have an issue with personally, morally,

561

:

and I think there's a big element of, yes,

562

:

we can build that culture for us internally,

563

:

but we also need our partners to follow us on that journey

564

:

and be on board with it as well, because if all,

565

:

if all the recruiters using our platforms ultimately don't

566

:

hire more inclusively,

567

:

I don't think I've really succeeded at my job.

568

:

Um, and it's a big mission.

569

:

I'm not claiming that I can solve it at all,

570

:

but if I can at least convince, I don't know,

571

:

10 recruiters,

572

:

pay more attention to that and to actually attend one of

573

:

our workshops, for example,

574

:

that's already a big win because then they can talk about

575

:

it as well with their peers and they can do something

576

:

together.

577

:

But I think unlocking a little bit of that piece of the

578

:

puzzle would be incredibly, um,

579

:

is incredibly important and would be really a strong step

580

:

forward for everyone as such and, and again,

581

:

one of those curb cuts would be, uh, a little bit more, um,

582

:

helpful, I guess, quite simply.

583

:

It's really interesting, obviously, I mean,

584

:

a lot of our conversation is going to resonate with me

585

:

being on the other end of the recruitment side of things.

586

:

But yeah, I think the other thing is, it just takes,

587

:

like you say,

588

:

that one person that's going to attend one of your labs or

589

:

workshops and go back and talk about it.

590

:

And they will they will reap the benefits because hiring

591

:

more inclusively isn't just the benefit of the applicant.

592

:

They will see a higher return on their investment,

593

:

they will open their talent pool exponentially to so many

594

:

people that are disregarded for whatever reason.

595

:

And, you know, it's the proof will be in the pudding,

596

:

you know, they will see that they will make more hires,

597

:

people will be happier in their roles,

598

:

they'll be more appreciative as well that they've had that

599

:

assistance to find something.

600

:

So yeah, no, I mean, I mean, definitely.

601

:

And then the other thing that I kind of wrote a note,

602

:

so sorry, I wasn't ignoring you,

603

:

was that I think a lot of the times I've struggled with

604

:

pushing accessibility to our clients or to prospect clients

605

:

that I'd love to work with.

606

:

And I find myself sometimes feeling like the accessibility

607

:

police and be like,

608

:

you have to do this because you're excluding so many people

609

:

and it's the right thing to do.

610

:

And think of all of these people that are experiencing

611

:

barriers.

612

:

But I mean, there's an element of that, obviously,

613

:

that you need to include,

614

:

but pushing that is just going to close more doors than

615

:

it's going to open.

616

:

They're not going to be willing to listen to you if you're

617

:

just berating them.

618

:

But explaining the benefits, and that is, you know,

619

:

there will be a higher return on investment,

620

:

you will open your talent pool,

621

:

you will employ people that you never thought previously

622

:

were available to you.

623

:

And they are exceptional people that can do so much so much

624

:

and so much more.

625

:

So yeah, no, that really hits home.

626

:

So sorry to just be like,

627

:

just doubling down on your points.

628

:

But also, yeah, the next the next sort of question.

629

:

So you have achieved so much, obviously,

630

:

in different in different areas in your time at Stepstone

631

:

, and nine years is great.

632

:

I actually celebrated my eight years with PCR Digital

633

:

yesterday.

634

:

So similar sort of time. Happy Anniversary!

635

:

Thank you very much.

636

:

But most recently,

637

:

you've got a board level sponsor for accessibility,

638

:

and you've been building and delivering the accessibility

639

:

lab that we've mentioned briefly to your peers and

640

:

colleagues at Stepstone.

641

:

But you opened that up to the Champions of Accessibility

642

:

Network and some external sort of partners as well.

643

:

So I was just so grateful that I was able to be someone to

644

:

attend that and see, you know,

645

:

what you're doing first-hand.

646

:

So it was amazing.

647

:

It was really engaging, really insightful.

648

:

So I just if you could, I know I'm asking a lot,

649

:

but could you sort of give some insight on how that

650

:

started?

651

:

And identify, you've identified, obviously,

652

:

the need for that and how it's going so far or plans to

653

:

grow that out.

654

:

Yeah, sure.

655

:

I mean,

656

:

I was really glad that there was an opportunity for external

657

:

champions to actually come and join,

658

:

and I'm glad you could make it.

659

:

That was fun.

660

:

And actually, for me, that was the,

661

:

the feedback that I needed to understand whether that

662

:

program, actually, of training was working,

663

:

because I don't have an accessibility team,

664

:

as people will have gotten by that point in the

665

:

conversation,

666

:

so to really understand whether that was actually valuable

667

:

and as insightful as I was hoping it was,

668

:

came with people like you coming and joining.

669

:

So thank you for joining us on that day.

670

:

I guess now is a good time to actually explain why in my

671

:

role, I sort of decided to focus on accessibility.

672

:

So when I took that role supporting our product and tech

673

:

teams to build more inclusively, as I've mentioned,

674

:

I had experience particularly with gender bias,

675

:

but not only,

676

:

and my experience with disability inclusion topics was

677

:

very, very limited.

678

:

And alongside that, at the same time,

679

:

we were building our employee networks.

680

:

And again,

681

:

we didn't have a network focusing on disability inclusion

682

:

either.

683

:

So when I got into my role,

684

:

I did a bit of an inventory of what we are doing in

685

:

relation to diversity and inclusion in our product

686

:

offering.

687

:

There were areas that were clearly stronger than others,

688

:

like gender equality,

689

:

and there were some clear gaps like disability inclusion,

690

:

but I didn't really know what to do at that time,

691

:

because I wasn't familiar enough with everything that's out

692

:

there.

693

:

So learning on the job, as we've mentioned.

694

:

And it was quite interesting, because somehow,

695

:

I actually can't remember the context,

696

:

but I think it's one of my former colleagues having a

697

:

relationship with AbilityNet.

698

:

And there was a call,

699

:

and because I've known people for a while,

700

:

and I've been in the business long enough,

701

:

my role had been just about communicating actually

702

:

internally.

703

:

And I got roped into that call with a few colleagues from

704

:

customer service,

705

:

a couple of colleagues from product and technology.

706

:

And there was an opportunity to do a maturity assessment.

707

:

And it was actually really interesting, let's call it that,

708

:

off the back of the call, where everyone was in agreement,

709

:

oh yeah, we need to do something about accessibility,

710

:

but still having a little bit of resistance from the

711

:

product leadership team that was present there.

712

:

For people in very senior roles,

713

:

who have the mandate and the remit to actually decide on

714

:

moving forward with these kinds of things.

715

:

But they really were like passing the parcel, like,

716

:

oh yeah, we should do this.

717

:

Oh yeah, but how about we do something else?

718

:

And how about we have someone else?

719

:

And how about, and I was like, okay,

720

:

we just can't do that forever, because in six months time,

721

:

we'll have the same conversation again.

722

:

So I just sort of decided to go forward with it.

723

:

And that's how we started working with AbilityNet on a few

724

:

things.

725

:

And I'm sure we'll come to that again later anyway,

726

:

in terms of partnerships.

727

:

But basically,

728

:

we're in that situation where accessibility is going to be

729

:

something that matters.

730

:

How do we get there?

731

:

Where is it that we need to get in the first place?

732

:

So as I kind of got more comfortable with the topic,

733

:

as we actually did our first maturity assessment,

734

:

I started to really understand the different tracks that I

735

:

needed to implement for Stepstone and understanding, okay,

736

:

how can I best support the product and tech teams in

737

:

achieving that more inclusive product offering.

738

:

And we started off with two main pillars,

739

:

which was training and auditing, working hand in hand.

740

:

We audit our product, we know where we fail,

741

:

we know where we need to train our teams.

742

:

They are better trained.

743

:

We proved that with a positive audit outcome, hopefully.

744

:

So that was really to build capability within the teams.

745

:

But my primary audience was product and tech only.

746

:

And I very quickly realized that this was limiting.

747

:

And that was too limited for me to actually achieve that,

748

:

because I needed also stakeholders in areas like HR, legal,

749

:

commercial teams, to also know about what we are doing,

750

:

what we're trying to achieve and help us get there.

751

:

So We had a few opportunities to do the training in product

752

:

and tech, but I really felt like this was much enough.

753

:

And even if we had that as a very strong basis,

754

:

there was still something that was missing from it,

755

:

which was that first basis, this alignment,

756

:

the foundational part where we all understand with the same

757

:

terminology, with the same concepts,

758

:

what is it that we try to achieve and making that as easy

759

:

as possible for everyone to be able to have that

760

:

conversation.

761

:

They find each other in the office one day.

762

:

They have the same language.

763

:

They can talk about the aspiration together with the same

764

:

knowledge and doing those separate trainings,

765

:

very specialist trainings that didn't really help us get

766

:

there.

767

:

And that was always a tiny,

768

:

tiny group because obviously you are limited in hosting

769

:

trainings like that.

770

:

So that really led me to think about, okay,

771

:

how can I bring that common language across the organisation

772

:

and making sure everyone understands what we're trying to

773

:

achieve and why we are also trying to achieve that because

774

:

there's various reasons.

775

:

And actually with the time and with a little bit more

776

:

knowledge and more confidence, we also alongside that,

777

:

as I was building up that capability in product and tech,

778

:

finally launching an employee resource group focusing on

779

:

accessibility and disability inclusion.

780

:

So we had those two elements that I could balance out

781

:

because I was basically kind of like overseeing the

782

:

activity for both.

783

:

And I've been very,

784

:

very proud to be the chair of our employee resource group

785

:

until very recently.

786

:

I'm handing over to very wonderful colleagues who will do

787

:

an amazing job.

788

:

And I was really trying to find a way, okay,

789

:

how can we connect that employee resource group to the

790

:

mission we have as a business?

791

:

And actually,

792

:

that's when I had the opportunity to speak with our chief

793

:

financial officer Tolston,

794

:

who had picked up an interest in the accessibility of our

795

:

offices in Düsseldorf,

796

:

which is where our headquarters is in Germany.

797

:

And we had a chat and I was like,

798

:

would you like to be our executive sponsor?

799

:

And that was the easiest conversation with a CFO that ever

800

:

happened!

801

:

And it was really great because he had an interest and he

802

:

was also very open and honest with me and the rest of the

803

:

group that is leading the employee resource group at the

804

:

time that his knowledge was limited,

805

:

but he was keen to learn and he wanted to have that

806

:

opportunity to really grow into this executive sponsorship

807

:

role alongside us as an organisation and us as an employee

808

:

group as well.

809

:

So that really helped us simply put accessibility on the

810

:

agenda across the entire organisation,

811

:

but I was still in the need of that training and common

812

:

language ground.

813

:

So what we did actually,

814

:

and where the workshops really came to life for me or the

815

:

idea came to something that was becoming more and more

816

:

tangible is 1. We managed to get Tolston over to London and

817

:

visit the Google Accessibility Discovery Center.

818

:

So I cannot stress enough how helpful it was for us to

819

:

actually get there.

820

:

And I thank Christopher Patnoe and the team there for

821

:

welcoming us not only once,

822

:

but twice that year and really understanding what does it

823

:

take to build that level of awareness and empathy for

824

:

people.

825

:

And even just spending half an hour there for Tolston

826

:

really brought to the forefront the fact that there's a lot

827

:

that exists.

828

:

There's a lot of technology.

829

:

We are a tech player in the recruitment industry.

830

:

What is it that we can do to build that up?

831

:

And for me, coming back to the office on that day,

832

:

I was very much like, okay,

833

:

how can I build a version of that that is really tailored

834

:

to our needs?

835

:

And it's not just like, here's a room full of kit,

836

:

figure it out.

837

:

Because I knew that my teams needed kind of like the

838

:

support and the guidance to get there.

839

:

I then had the opportunity to bring a few colleagues,

840

:

a dozen of colleagues to a specific workshop actually there

841

:

as well in the ADC.

842

:

And what I noticed during those couple of hours we were

843

:

there is simply just being exposed to: "hey,

844

:

here's an Android phone.

845

:

Did you know all those accessibility settings exist?" It

846

:

just has this moment for people who are like, oh,

847

:

I didn't know.

848

:

But oh,

849

:

I want to try that on this website I'm using or I want to

850

:

try how the color contrast of my websites looks like when I

851

:

apply those settings and tap.

852

:

And it was just like...

853

:

The moment of realization that it doesn't really take a lot

854

:

for people to start building the awareness,

855

:

but even more so building the empathy and start thinking

856

:

about, how can I apply that myself?

857

:

So based on that very long story,

858

:

after a few months of kind of like refining the idea in my

859

:

head, and because of a bit of a change in, uh, in,

860

:

in the org last year, I started 2024 going, okay,

861

:

I'm going to pitch for this accessibility workshop.

862

:

We'll see how we call them.

863

:

We ended up calling them the accessibility lab.

864

:

But I'm going to pitch for that.

865

:

And that's going to be my key project for the year.

866

:

And initially I wanted to do a bit of a soft launch just to

867

:

try it out.

868

:

I ended up doing a hard launch and it was done, um,

869

:

for the year, but, uh,

870

:

it was good because actually what I expected to be a bit of

871

:

a slow burn and something that needs a lot of like

872

:

communication and Hey, I need to convince you,

873

:

you need to attend this thing.

874

:

Actually, as soon as we hit, uh, publish on our, uh,

875

:

intranet, I had hundreds of signups.

876

:

Amazing.

877

:

That was shocking in a positive way, but it was shocking.

878

:

And in reflection, what I,

879

:

what I understand basically is that people were keen to

880

:

learn they had an interest,

881

:

but they had no way of voicing that interest that wouldn't

882

:

feel like it's curiosity or it's misplaced,

883

:

or because we had the employee resource group,

884

:

but it's still an employee resource group.

885

:

So you don't necessarily want to disclose either.

886

:

You don't necessarily want to tell about your personal

887

:

experiences.

888

:

You may be in a non-tech role and you're not interested in

889

:

the tech,

890

:

but maybe you are caring for someone who has Parkinson's

891

:

and you actually tend to understand what does that mean on

892

:

a daily basis for someone like the examples could be so

893

:

many.

894

:

So the accessibility really came to life in May of 2024,

895

:

where we had our first sessions and I think at the end of

896

:

2024,

897

:

I tidied up about 250 colleagues across five locations who

898

:

attended.

899

:

And the way I set it up,

900

:

because I can't have a permanent space for it,

901

:

is basically a suitcase full of a kit.

902

:

And the main point for me was to make sure that it's not

903

:

too much of a product and tech workshop.

904

:

So we go through the concepts,

905

:

we go through the definitions together.

906

:

We basically start from zero.

907

:

I really tell every participant, like,

908

:

there's no expectations about what you need to know,

909

:

we are going to learn together.

910

:

And I learned stuff every single session myself as well.

911

:

And the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.

912

:

The kind of like,

913

:

word of mouth about it as well has been really amazing.

914

:

And that really has helped us build that accountability

915

:

actually across the business,

916

:

because people may not have the ability to go back to

917

:

their desk the next day and say,

918

:

I'm going to do a more accessible experience for my users

919

:

or my stakeholders now,

920

:

but they may be in a meeting with someone who mentioned

921

:

something that may not be very inclusive and they can call

922

:

it out in a way that is positive and helps us move forward

923

:

as well.

924

:

But that's the kind of like the story and the background

925

:

for the accessibility lab to come to life for us.

926

:

The plan in 2025 is to bring more external partners.

927

:

As I've mentioned, clients, recruiters would be very,

928

:

very important for me to bring into those sessions and also

929

:

people from the community as such,

930

:

so that we can rebuild on those experiences or have

931

:

tailored workshops, for example,

932

:

with our UX teams and so on.

933

:

But also we are a global organisation and I've targeted a

934

:

few locations already, but I need to target a few more.

935

:

So hopefully colleagues who are based, for example,

936

:

in Belgium or in other locations in the UK or in Germany,

937

:

as we have multiple offices there,

938

:

will be able to also access that and kind of like join the

939

:

army of accessibility champions we have across

940

:

the organisation.

941

:

And I have to say, and really like all jokes aside,

942

:

having an executive sponsor who is willing to learn and

943

:

support even in very quiet ways,

944

:

not the kind of like big PR push or LinkedIn post,

945

:

that is the most significant thing that could have happened

946

:

for us in the last couple of years to really build that

947

:

ownership.

948

:

Yeah, it's incredible.

949

:

And it's not always the case, is it?

950

:

As you mentioned, you don't always sort of go, "can we?", "

951

:

Yes.

952

:

Yeah, that's fine".

953

:

That would be the ideal world, right?

954

:

But absolutely.

955

:

As much as, yeah, that's a huge milestone,

956

:

a huge thing that you need to achieve before you can sort

957

:

of put things in place.

958

:

The real work starts once you have the green light.

959

:

And it's obviously taken so much work to get it to where it

960

:

is.

961

:

And I'm so pleased that it's such a success.

962

:

I mean, it's understandable why it's such a success.

963

:

I can say that because I've been there.

964

:

But it's just, I mean, I was like,

965

:

because obviously you have these conversations and I'm not

966

:

a specialist myself,

967

:

but I gain a lot of knowledge in the area.

968

:

But something that was really stand out for me was the

969

:

definition of sympathy versus empathy.

970

:

And it was really just like, oh, my God,

971

:

like even just using the right sort of terminology,

972

:

because sometimes I might be like, oh, you know,

973

:

I feel so sympathetic towards someone that can't do X,

974

:

Y and Z.

975

:

But actually,

976

:

it's putting yourself in the shoes rather than feeling

977

:

like, oh, poor you sort of thing.

978

:

It's actually, no, you know, imagine myself and then right,

979

:

what could we do to sort of help.

980

:

And yeah, that was one of very many standout points.

981

:

Sorry, that's not the only takeaway.

982

:

Thank you.

983

:

And actually, if I can,

984

:

if I can add off the back of having a few champions like

985

:

you coming in, in December,

986

:

I've received a number of messages from colleagues that are

987

:

actually also the, the CAN meetup.

988

:

That's the LinkedIn Champions of Accessibility Network led

989

:

by Gareth, Charlie and Heather,

990

:

hosted in July in the steps and office actually in London.

991

:

I've gotten so many messages from people in accessibility

992

:

roles in various organisations trying to really unlock

993

:

that.

994

:

That's that sort of opportunities for themselves.

995

:

And one of the things that comes back quite a lot is about

996

:

cost.

997

:

And I know that when I visited the ADC, I was thinking,

998

:

okay, there are some stuff there we can't afford.

999

:

But there's a few things I was like,

:

00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,180

I was just turning to Tim,

:

00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,640

my colleague who's Head of IT and I was like,

:

00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,960

is there any chance I can get a few like old laptops and

:

00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,300

old mobile phones and just use that for the workshops? Who

:

00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:50,660

was like, yeah, probably should be fine.

:

00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:51,820

And obviously, it was fine.

:

00:45:52,380 --> 00:45:54,880

But also all the other pieces of kit that we have there,

:

00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,600

like we have plenty of things like: Lego Braille.

:

00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,880

We recently got playing cards with Braille on,

:

00:46:05,340 --> 00:46:07,740

we have a few books, we have visual impairment,

:

00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,220

simulation glasses, like,

:

00:46:10,380 --> 00:46:12,100

there's plenty of very different things.

:

00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:13,260

And by the way, yesterday,

:

00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,040

I found out that the steady spoon,

:

00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,520

which is something that has a way to balance the kind of

:

00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,000

like the bowl of a spoon for a baby costs,

:

00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,320

eight euros for an adult costs 90 euros.

:

00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,280

And that is one of the things that really annoyed me this

:

00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,160

this week, I just wanted to mention it,

:

00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,860

I think I have the right audience to complain about.

:

00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:34,760

Yeah, definitely.

:

00:46:35,180 --> 00:46:36,520

That's insane, yeah.

:

00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,300

all in all building up the kit doesn't really cost a lot of

:

00:46:40,300 --> 00:46:43,100

money and I think again to our points earlier around

:

00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:46,540

imposter feelings when you see some organisations doing

:

00:46:46,540 --> 00:46:49,280

those amazing, shiny workshops and all of that.

:

00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,860

It may feel overwhelming and actually when you go into the

:

00:46:53,860 --> 00:46:54,620

details of it,

:

00:46:54,620 --> 00:46:57,640

it's not that bad. And there's an opportunity to do

:

00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,460

something so if there's one thing also that would love to

:

00:47:00,460 --> 00:47:06,280

debunk for people in this kind of like industry and trying

:

00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,800

to build the awareness across their organisation is that it

:

00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,780

doesn't have to cost you a lot of budget and the actual

:

00:47:12,780 --> 00:47:16,780

budget request may not be that big so that's that I think

:

00:47:16,780 --> 00:47:19,140

is something that is really important to know as well.

:

00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,420

That's that's incredible bit of advice because I think a

:

00:47:23,420 --> 00:47:27,440

lot you see the like, I mean, not to discount, you know,

:

00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,360

the investment and the effort that goes in by companies

:

00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,180

like Google, but also, I mean,

:

00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,420

NHS have rolled out Accessibility Labs as well more

:

00:47:36,420 --> 00:47:36,820

recently.

:

00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,920

And I know that it helps with the marketing of things like

:

00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:41,220

that.

:

00:47:41,220 --> 00:47:44,660

So you say, oh, look, how much we've invested in this to,

:

00:47:44,860 --> 00:47:48,300

you know, progress in this area, but that doesn't help.

:

00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:48,900

Like you say,

:

00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:51,560

people that may not have access to those types of budgets

:

00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,200

to be able to implement something globally or or across the

:

00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:55,680

whole company.

:

00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,880

But that's really, really, it's really,

:

00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,660

really good to hear that, you know, I mean,

:

00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,040

a lot of a lot of what you had was the knowledge and the

:

00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:05,740

time investment.

:

00:48:05,740 --> 00:48:08,900

So I guess that that's that's the sort of probably the most

:

00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:13,660

expensive and valuable part of it.

:

00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,320

And that's the that's the crux of it, really,

:

00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,200

as much as those things can help to gain that in that

:

00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:19,820

understanding.

:

00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:20,660

I think that, yeah,

:

00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,560

the knowledge that you've put into there and transferring

:

00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,420

that in an effective way is the main the main thing.

:

00:48:26,420 --> 00:48:27,780

So no love that.

:

00:48:29,060 --> 00:48:31,860

But then talking about investment and that you're the only

:

00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:34,540

person really with the sort of accessibility title

:

00:48:34,540 --> 00:48:39,220

at Stepstone Group at the moment or don't have a team.

:

00:48:39,860 --> 00:48:43,380

Do you I believe that you work with some external sort of

:

00:48:43,380 --> 00:48:46,280

third party consultancies and you mentioned AbilityNet

:

00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:47,020

previously,

:

00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,540

some of the more hands on sort of needs throughout the

:

00:48:49,540 --> 00:48:49,840

group.

:

00:48:50,420 --> 00:48:53,660

And when it comes to sort of creating those, partnerships,

:

00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:55,960

what do you think?

:

00:48:56,180 --> 00:48:58,980

What factors do you think are critical for companies aiming

:

00:48:58,980 --> 00:49:02,700

to incorporate more accessibility into their sort of

:

00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:05,940

digital transformations that they need to consider?

:

00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,640

Yeah, I think that's a very interesting question.

:

00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:12,920

It's one that I reflected on in the past couple of years,

:

00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:14,160

quite a lot.

:

00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:16,900

So for us, it all started with AbilityNet.

:

00:49:17,220 --> 00:49:20,420

And I have to say, I've been so,

:

00:49:20,420 --> 00:49:22,600

so happy to work with them.

:

00:49:23,460 --> 00:49:27,320

Not only because what they provided us with in terms of

:

00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,640

those different deliverables, whether it's training,

:

00:49:29,940 --> 00:49:31,240

or it's the maturity model.

:

00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:35,240

It was done in a way that really worked for us.

:

00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,780

And particularly the audit deliverables for us have been

:

00:49:39,780 --> 00:49:43,300

absolutely perfect in terms of what it looked like and what

:

00:49:43,300 --> 00:49:45,380

it helps us achieve further on.

:

00:49:45,860 --> 00:49:48,660

But also just the support of the team, generally speaking.

:

00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,840

I never felt at any point,

:

00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,760

starting from zero in the accessibility world,

:

00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,120

like I was asking a silly question,

:

00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,640

or I was kind of not really clear what I was doing or

:

00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:03,220

anything like that.

:

00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:11,420

They really helped me grow into my role without dictating

:

00:50:11,420 --> 00:50:12,920

to us what we needed to achieve,

:

00:50:13,180 --> 00:50:15,260

without being patronising about what we were achieving,

:

00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,580

without ever making us feel bad.

:

00:50:19,340 --> 00:50:20,420

And I think at the moment,

:

00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,960

there's a bit of a risky game in the market of

:

00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:23,500

accessibility,

:

00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:26,660

because a lot of businesses are panicking about the

:

00:50:26,660 --> 00:50:27,920

European Accessibility Act,

:

00:50:28,180 --> 00:50:30,240

and a lot of businesses are trying to take advantage of

:

00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:30,460

that.

:

00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:35,780

And it's really quite shocking, I have to say,

:

00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:41,520

the number of uninformed decisions, I would say,

:

00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:45,440

that are being made at the moment by plenty of businesses

:

00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,040

when it comes to accessibility compliance,

:

00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,020

because not everyone has the time or the energy or the

:

00:50:51,020 --> 00:50:54,240

willingness to build a more accessible culture.

:

00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,760

But they will want to be compliant, probably,

:

00:50:57,940 --> 00:51:00,980

because they will be scared of the fines, particularly,

:

00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:02,920

and the reputational risks.

:

00:51:03,260 --> 00:51:04,080

But I think, for me,

:

00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:07,180

that's also where being very diligent about who you partner

:

00:51:07,180 --> 00:51:08,560

with is super important.

:

00:51:09,580 --> 00:51:12,560

I know that I've always had experiences working with

:

00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,880

agencies or, for example, in the creative side.

:

00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:18,780

And I don't want to just work with someone who can help me

:

00:51:18,780 --> 00:51:19,780

deliver the outputs.

:

00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,540

I actually really want to have a good relationship with

:

00:51:22,540 --> 00:51:23,700

them, learn from them,

:

00:51:24,180 --> 00:51:26,960

be able to really be comfortable when I share feedback,

:

00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,140

that they can give me feedback as well.

:

00:51:29,340 --> 00:51:30,980

I really see it as a partnership,

:

00:51:31,100 --> 00:51:33,540

even though it probably sounds like a bit of a buzzword and

:

00:51:33,540 --> 00:51:34,500

all of that.

:

00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:37,300

But it's a two-way street.

:

00:51:37,700 --> 00:51:40,120

I don't see it as, I give you money, there's a transaction,

:

00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,560

you give me the output that I requested in the brief.

:

00:51:43,620 --> 00:51:44,440

And for me,

:

00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,720

working with AbilityNet has very much been that,

:

00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:48,440

and I've learned so,

:

00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,220

so much working with them and putting together those

:

00:51:51,220 --> 00:51:53,240

training programs for the teams and so on.

:

00:51:55,060 --> 00:51:59,520

And I think there's a lot that is boiling down to the fact

:

00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:01,240

that AbilityNet is also a charity.

:

00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,920

It's not a for-profit organisation.

:

00:52:04,820 --> 00:52:08,240

So I think there's an element there that they really care

:

00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:12,220

because that's who they are, as such, as an organisation.

:

00:52:12,860 --> 00:52:15,640

And I know that there's a lot of disability-owned

:

00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,360

businesses as well in this industry,

:

00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,000

and there's plenty of agencies and conferences also

:

00:52:21,300 --> 00:52:22,440

invested in that.

:

00:52:23,140 --> 00:52:25,520

I have to say, they are not paying me for saying that,

:

00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,760

but AbilityNet for me really has been the most steady

:

00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,160

partner because I've been consistently pleased with what

:

00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,620

they helped us with.

:

00:52:35,780 --> 00:52:38,780

And sometimes other organisations are also quite reputable

:

00:52:38,780 --> 00:52:40,300

in the industry.

:

00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,740

I have to say, I've not been so impressed.

:

00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,840

So obviously that's for me when, I don't know,

:

00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:50,540

I convinced the team very laboriously that they need to

:

00:52:50,540 --> 00:52:52,700

have an accessibility training and if the accessibility

:

00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:54,700

training itself is not very accessible.

:

00:52:55,660 --> 00:52:57,060

I feel let down.

:

00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,900

And that's a bit of a shame because that then doesn't put

:

00:53:01,900 --> 00:53:03,540

that barrier down for that team.

:

00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:05,600

It actually makes it even bigger and stronger.

:

00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,060

And then that's harder for me to then move forward with

:

00:53:09,060 --> 00:53:09,500

that team.

:

00:53:09,940 --> 00:53:12,500

So I think there's a lot of due dilligence that needs to be

:

00:53:12,500 --> 00:53:15,420

done for organisations that are really serious about

:

00:53:15,420 --> 00:53:18,560

building that capability in their business,

:

00:53:18,580 --> 00:53:20,360

not just ticking off a box and saying, okay,

:

00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,700

I can report that I've trained 25 people in my UX team on

:

00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:25,260

accessibility.

:

00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,280

So obviously it depends what people expect and want to

:

00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:28,620

achieve.

:

00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:30,380

But I think for me, yeah,

:

00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:35,020

that element of whether you can work with a charity or a

:

00:53:35,020 --> 00:53:37,500

disability owned organisation in the first place is super

:

00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:39,320

important because also that's very needed.

:

00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,000

And also understanding what is it that you're trying to

:

00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:43,240

achieve.

:

00:53:45,260 --> 00:53:45,780

I think.

:

00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,720

There will be times I know there will be times where I need

:

00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:52,660

to work with other organisations than AbilityNet because I

:

00:53:52,660 --> 00:53:55,980

have too many requests and we can't keep up with my

:

00:53:55,980 --> 00:53:56,400

nonsense.

:

00:53:57,860 --> 00:54:00,120

For example, potentially, hopefully not.

:

00:54:01,500 --> 00:54:06,060

But I think that element of being careful what you do is is

:

00:54:06,060 --> 00:54:07,260

extremely important.

:

00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,820

Also, because you want to trust the advice, the guidance,

:

00:54:10,940 --> 00:54:12,300

the training that is being given.

:

00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,780

And I have to say that sometimes I've seen organisation

:

00:54:15,780 --> 00:54:19,260

sharing advice down like,

:

00:54:19,700 --> 00:54:21,480

I don't think that's quite right.

:

00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:24,300

And other people commenting on that.

:

00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,860

And I think that's super scary, especially like I said,

:

00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,660

with all the scaremongering that is going around at the

:

00:54:29,660 --> 00:54:29,860

moment.

:

00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:37,340

I'm one of the people who thinks like slow progress is

:

00:54:37,340 --> 00:54:41,800

better than just progress at any cost.

:

00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:42,540

I guess.

:

00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:43,380

Yeah.

:

00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,960

And I'm pleased that you mentioned, obviously, I mean,

:

00:54:47,020 --> 00:54:48,940

I'm so pleased that you've had that experience of

:

00:54:48,940 --> 00:54:49,780

AbilityNet as well.

:

00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:51,160

And I don't really hear,

:

00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:54,820

I very rarely hear any bad things about any of the

:

00:54:54,820 --> 00:54:56,820

consultancies out there that provide accessibility

:

00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:57,600

services.

:

00:54:57,940 --> 00:55:01,560

But it's nice to hear that you've found that and it works

:

00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:02,320

for you as well.

:

00:55:02,460 --> 00:55:04,680

Because I guess what they do for you might not work for

:

00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:05,640

other companies, like you say.

:

00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,660

If they're more technical or complex sort of things that

:

00:55:08,660 --> 00:55:09,180

need to be done,

:

00:55:09,340 --> 00:55:11,800

then there may be others out there that I know that there

:

00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:12,580

are others out there.

:

00:55:12,580 --> 00:55:13,520

So I won't,

:

00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,320

I feel like we're almost sponsored by AbilityNet in this

:

00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,780

episode now.

:

00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,700

So I'll have to quickly move on to the next question.

:

00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,560

Maybe we'll get invited to TechShare Pro!

:

00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:32,440

Well, that would be lovely, and that's a very good segue.

:

00:55:32,700 --> 00:55:33,080

So thank you.

:

00:55:33,180 --> 00:55:35,400

I really appreciate the help here in moving me on to the

:

00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:36,040

next question,

:

00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:40,220

which is you were on a panel discussion at last year's

:

00:55:40,220 --> 00:55:44,240

Techshare Pro, which was very standout, I think,

:

00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:44,940

across the board.

:

00:55:45,100 --> 00:55:47,940

I think it's so many people fed back about this particular

:

00:55:47,940 --> 00:55:51,320

panel, and it was on Burnout, and how commonplace it is,

:

00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,080

unfortunately, within the accessibility field.

:

00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:59,400

So I guess not to take too much more of your time up,

:

00:55:59,660 --> 00:56:01,000

but do you mind approaching that again,

:

00:56:01,180 --> 00:56:05,500

and just giving our listeners a bit more insight on how you

:

00:56:05,500 --> 00:56:06,260

manage burnout,

:

00:56:06,700 --> 00:56:09,840

and any advice on what managers can be doing to identify

:

00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:11,140

that in their teams.

:

00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:16,300

Yeah, I'm very happy to.

:

00:56:17,140 --> 00:56:19,800

It's a tough topic for various reasons.

:

00:56:19,940 --> 00:56:22,860

It's also one that really infuriates me because I think

:

00:56:22,860 --> 00:56:24,780

that as a society, I guess,

:

00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,480

we don't do enough to prevent burnout or to help people

:

00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:30,020

recovering from their burnout.

:

00:56:32,180 --> 00:56:35,320

Yeah, it's just infuriating, really.

:

00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:38,880

I know that myself,

:

00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:43,740

I've burnt out in my previous role for various reasons and

:

00:56:43,740 --> 00:56:47,460

I think things usually come together.

:

00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,200

Something doesn't feel quite right at work.

:

00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,320

Something won't feel quite right in your personal life and

:

00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:54,440

everything will come together.

:

00:56:54,860 --> 00:56:59,320

It's just like that climax of a moment where I just go

:

00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,620

like, oh, nothing is quite right right now.

:

00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,460

But you may not actually verbalise it like that and you may

:

00:57:05,460 --> 00:57:08,620

not even notice that it's burning you out.

:

00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,180

I think there's also a lot around burnout that is

:

00:57:14,180 --> 00:57:14,660

misunderstood.

:

00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,820

I know that just before we had the TechShare Pro conference

:

00:57:17,820 --> 00:57:20,400

session, I read, I think,

:

00:57:20,460 --> 00:57:24,400

the night before someone commenting on social media saying

:

00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,660

that "burnout is just happening to people who don't like

:

00:57:27,660 --> 00:57:30,040

their job" and I think nothing could be further from the

:

00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:31,300

reality than that.

:

00:57:33,220 --> 00:57:34,620

I think especially in the world of accessibility,

:

00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:37,680

it comes from caring a lot.

:

00:57:38,740 --> 00:57:40,420

I don't know if we can care too much,

:

00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,940

but there's a lot about caring a lot about what you are

:

00:57:43,940 --> 00:57:46,620

doing, not necessarily on a personal level,

:

00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:51,700

but on that more kind of wider perspective as such.

:

00:57:52,380 --> 00:57:55,700

Like I said, I burnt out in my previous role.

:

00:57:56,540 --> 00:58:01,480

I almost burnt out last year, I admit.

:

00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,700

And at the start of the TechShare Pro session for those

:

00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:06,680

who've seen it,

:

00:58:06,860 --> 00:58:11,800

we had that expert calling out the different symptoms and

:

00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:12,180

all that.

:

00:58:12,380 --> 00:58:14,480

I remember sitting there watching the video being like,

:

00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,060

yeah, yeah, yeah, ticking that box also, oh, this one,

:

00:58:18,180 --> 00:58:18,680

oh yeah.

:

00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:21,000

But also in reflection,

:

00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:25,920

I knew that I was not really like at the maximum of my

:

00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:27,220

capacity at that time.

:

00:58:28,660 --> 00:58:31,680

One reason being tired, generally speaking,

:

00:58:31,940 --> 00:58:34,300

but not just the physical tiredness, I guess.

:

00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,620

And actually preparing for a conversation today,

:

00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,920

I remember at some point last year in one of my work trips

:

00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,600

being back in my hotel room after an event or something

:

00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:47,100

like that,

:

00:58:47,340 --> 00:58:50,520

chatting on WhatsApp with one of my colleagues and friends

:

00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,180

and actually just bursting into tears.

:

00:58:53,180 --> 00:58:57,300

And I was like, okay, I need to figure it out.

:

00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,300

I need to understand better what's going on right now.

:

00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:04,480

So for me, usually as if it's a habit.

:

00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,520

When I burnt out the first time and when I nearly burnt out

:

00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:09,840

the second and third time,

:

00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:13,500

the main things that I noticed was for me,

:

00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,480

I completely withdrew from social activity,

:

00:59:16,780 --> 00:59:18,480

engaging with friends, family,

:

00:59:19,180 --> 00:59:21,480

just avoiding conversation with pretty much everyone.

:

00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,520

When I was still working from an office permanently,

:

00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,520

I remember always putting my headphones on,

:

00:59:27,620 --> 00:59:29,940

which I usually do to get in the zone when I need to,

:

00:59:30,060 --> 00:59:32,540

but I was just putting them on without any sort of music,

:

00:59:32,660 --> 00:59:34,700

even though I love listening to music all the time,

:

00:59:35,220 --> 00:59:37,140

just so that people avoid approaching me really.

:

00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:39,420

I wasn't eating correctly.

:

00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,940

I was basically going to work, doing my job,

:

00:59:44,660 --> 00:59:47,380

getting back home, going to bed, waking up,

:

00:59:47,540 --> 00:59:49,040

going to work and so on and so on.

:

00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,620

It was really, really intense in that sense.

:

00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:57,200

And I also started having very mild panic attacks as well.

:

00:59:57,940 --> 01:00:00,760

But the flip side of that is my work was excellent each

:

01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:01,100

time.

:

01:00:01,420 --> 01:00:04,060

Last year was very good for me from a work perspective.

:

01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:06,260

When I burnt out the first time,

:

01:00:06,660 --> 01:00:11,240

I did some of the best campaigns at the time.

:

01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,840

But something was just wearing me down so much.

:

01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:22,420

So I think really getting people to understand that burnout

:

01:00:22,420 --> 01:00:25,580

is not about doing a bad job and messing up with what

:

01:00:25,580 --> 01:00:26,340

you're supposed to do.

:

01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,800

It may display like that for some people.

:

01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:31,380

It may happen that actually their performance is dropping.

:

01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:33,600

But for a lot of people,

:

01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,060

what I've seen and what I heard from others as well is that

:

01:00:36,060 --> 01:00:37,500

it just remains the same.

:

01:00:38,180 --> 01:00:41,340

Or you absorb more and you want to do more and you actually

:

01:00:41,340 --> 01:00:42,400

say no to nothing.

:

01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:49,160

So I think there's a lot around understanding how it really

:

01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:50,020

affects people.

:

01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:51,020

And as a manager,

:

01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,640

noticing those things that really put people closer to that

:

01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:58,660

edge, I think there's a lot around setting up expectations.

:

01:00:59,020 --> 01:01:01,020

And I think especially in the world of accessibility,

:

01:01:01,020 --> 01:01:04,040

we all want to achieve something that is really great.

:

01:01:04,660 --> 01:01:07,120

And that element of progress or perfection is true,

:

01:01:07,420 --> 01:01:09,960

but you always like your definition of progress.

:

01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:14,320

may vary quite a bit from person to person or organisation

:

01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,820

to organisation and understanding that;

:

01:01:16,820 --> 01:01:18,460

what is a small win?

:

01:01:18,620 --> 01:01:19,360

What is a big win?

:

01:01:20,100 --> 01:01:21,880

Are they actually all big wins?

:

01:01:22,300 --> 01:01:23,600

And we just consider them that.

:

01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:28,180

I think there's a lot that also has to be thought about to

:

01:01:28,180 --> 01:01:32,620

really put the expectations in the right places and not

:

01:01:32,620 --> 01:01:34,260

burnout because of that as well.

:

01:01:35,700 --> 01:01:38,270

And I think also to our points around imposter,

:

01:01:39,530 --> 01:01:41,610

I think there's a bit of a connection with that as well,

:

01:01:41,750 --> 01:01:45,070

because in a lot of our roles,

:

01:01:45,150 --> 01:01:49,330

we feel like it's not enough or it's meaningless or I could

:

01:01:49,330 --> 01:01:50,430

do better and so on.

:

01:01:50,710 --> 01:01:54,310

And that also again doesn't help with feeling that we are

:

01:01:54,310 --> 01:01:55,070

doing the right thing.

:

01:01:55,690 --> 01:01:57,490

So there's plenty of reasons.

:

01:01:57,730 --> 01:02:00,850

There's also obviously the element of what happens outside

:

01:02:00,850 --> 01:02:03,550

of work that could be affecting people and that's also very

:

01:02:03,550 --> 01:02:04,090

important.

:

01:02:05,590 --> 01:02:09,210

But one thing I would stress and that I've always stressed

:

01:02:09,210 --> 01:02:13,250

to people when we talk about burnout is: Taking a break

:

01:02:13,250 --> 01:02:18,290

from work doesn't solve it for everyone, all the time.

:

01:02:19,430 --> 01:02:22,130

I know that the usual thing that people say is, oh,

:

01:02:23,290 --> 01:02:24,710

your job is just your job.

:

01:02:24,950 --> 01:02:26,910

You're not like, you're not a doctor.

:

01:02:27,070 --> 01:02:28,250

You're not saving lives.

:

01:02:28,250 --> 01:02:29,930

That's not the point.

:

01:02:31,810 --> 01:02:33,130

It's just not the point.

:

01:02:33,630 --> 01:02:34,870

Telling me to take a day off,

:

01:02:35,430 --> 01:02:37,890

that's not the point because actually for a lot of people

:

01:02:37,890 --> 01:02:41,250

and I was in this situation, work was my only anchor.

:

01:02:41,410 --> 01:02:43,030

That was the only thing that I could control.

:

01:02:43,250 --> 01:02:47,330

That was the only thing that I could really do what I knew

:

01:02:47,330 --> 01:02:48,250

I could do with.

:

01:02:49,270 --> 01:02:52,290

And that was the one thing that I needed in my day.

:

01:02:52,590 --> 01:02:55,210

Being away from it wouldn't have helped me at the time,

:

01:02:55,350 --> 01:02:55,610

I know.

:

01:02:56,470 --> 01:03:00,690

So if some people need that, as a manager,

:

01:03:00,970 --> 01:03:03,330

please give them the space to have that.

:

01:03:03,550 --> 01:03:06,410

But it may be that actually someone it's a lazy day at home

:

01:03:06,410 --> 01:03:09,190

so they can just recuperate a little bit from a physical

:

01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:11,110

perspective and then go back to things.

:

01:03:11,950 --> 01:03:15,590

It may be that actually you need to carve in in your work

:

01:03:15,590 --> 01:03:19,110

week more breaks, proper lunch breaks, going out for a run,

:

01:03:19,150 --> 01:03:21,090

for a walk, for whatever actually you fancy.

:

01:03:21,630 --> 01:03:24,630

I know that the first time I burnt out,

:

01:03:24,830 --> 01:03:29,750

one of the things that started bringing me back to who I

:

01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:35,510

was and how I wanted to feel more often was actually to

:

01:03:35,510 --> 01:03:38,970

just say to myself, not to anyone, oh,

:

01:03:39,330 --> 01:03:42,010

I've been in the UK for X number of years now.

:

01:03:42,170 --> 01:03:43,090

I love football.

:

01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:45,210

I've never been to a Premier League game.

:

01:03:45,630 --> 01:03:48,910

I live 10 minutes away from a football ground.

:

01:03:49,490 --> 01:03:52,890

I'm going to find a ticket and go to a match on my own and

:

01:03:52,890 --> 01:03:54,210

just enjoy it.

:

01:03:56,070 --> 01:03:58,470

Sometimes, it would be simple things like that.

:

01:03:58,910 --> 01:04:02,250

It could be that you want to go see a movie or go to a show

:

01:04:02,250 --> 01:04:07,030

or whatever, or take a small trip somewhere for a few days.

:

01:04:07,430 --> 01:04:08,550

It doesn't really matter.

:

01:04:08,790 --> 01:04:12,370

What matters is that it's the thing that actually will make

:

01:04:12,370 --> 01:04:13,490

a difference for that person.

:

01:04:14,350 --> 01:04:17,010

It can take very different shape and form for people.

:

01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:20,830

I think that's the main thing for managers or colleagues

:

01:04:20,830 --> 01:04:23,650

who are seeing someone struggling in their team.

:

01:04:25,070 --> 01:04:27,570

Just notice the change in behavior.

:

01:04:29,110 --> 01:04:31,570

Call it out without sugar-coating it as well,

:

01:04:31,590 --> 01:04:32,990

which is one of my pet peeves,

:

01:04:33,330 --> 01:04:34,990

especially in British working culture.

:

01:04:38,110 --> 01:04:38,490

I'm

:

01:04:38,490 --> 01:04:38,490

sorry, I'm very French when it comes to that! I don't think being direct and clear means you are

:

01:04:40,690 --> 01:04:41,590

being mean.

:

01:04:42,350 --> 01:04:46,190

That's one of the stereotypes I think probably that I'm

:

01:04:46,190 --> 01:04:47,690

trying to combat a lot.

:

01:04:49,470 --> 01:04:50,330

Don't sugarcoat it.

:

01:04:50,670 --> 01:04:51,330

Call it out.

:

01:04:51,570 --> 01:04:52,050

Be clear.

:

01:04:52,490 --> 01:04:53,430

Notice what you see.

:

01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:56,130

Don't try to come up with solutions straight away.

:

01:04:56,370 --> 01:04:57,150

Don't go like, oh,

:

01:04:57,150 --> 01:04:59,110

I've noticed your performance is dropping.

:

01:04:59,270 --> 01:05:02,070

I'm going to help you with your performance now.

:

01:05:02,450 --> 01:05:04,650

Actually, you are very tired at the moment.

:

01:05:04,650 --> 01:05:05,390

Take a day off.

:

01:05:06,410 --> 01:05:11,650

That is not always going to be the right solution for that

:

01:05:11,650 --> 01:05:11,950

person.

:

01:05:12,590 --> 01:05:18,770

Giving space I think itself is something that people need

:

01:05:18,770 --> 01:05:20,370

to also work on.

:

01:05:20,950 --> 01:05:23,330

It doesn't mean take the day off or take an hour break.

:

01:05:23,850 --> 01:05:28,630

It means remove the noise around me so I can focus on me,

:

01:05:28,750 --> 01:05:29,710

what I need to do,

:

01:05:29,710 --> 01:05:33,010

and making sure I can do that in the best possible way.

:

01:05:34,970 --> 01:05:36,750

I think, again,

:

01:05:36,870 --> 01:05:38,530

to some of the points we've mentioned earlier,

:

01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:45,720

give people validation and tell them when they are doing

:

01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:46,380

something good,

:

01:05:46,820 --> 01:05:51,080

don't wait once a year for like performance reviews to tell

:

01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:53,300

them they are doing a good job and do that.

:

01:05:53,300 --> 01:05:54,460

Even if you're not their manager,

:

01:05:54,700 --> 01:05:58,460

you may be just a peer attending one workshop or attending

:

01:05:58,460 --> 01:06:01,820

one meeting and something that has been said,

:

01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,160

has been said in a way that makes you feel very good,

:

01:06:04,220 --> 01:06:07,160

that you felt was very powerful or whatever it can be.

:

01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,860

Tell them that because those tiny bits of validation will

:

01:06:10,860 --> 01:06:13,720

help people feel better in their own skin, I think,

:

01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,040

in their own work and beyond that, uh,

:

01:06:17,420 --> 01:06:21,720

just help feel better quite simply, I would say.

:

01:06:22,100 --> 01:06:23,980

So, uh, yeah, I think there's a,

:

01:06:23,980 --> 01:06:28,180

there's plenty of symptoms that people may not be watching

:

01:06:28,180 --> 01:06:29,240

out for too much.

:

01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,480

And it's very hard when you're in this situation to go

:

01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:35,420

like, Oh, what is going on?

:

01:06:35,420 --> 01:06:38,580

Uh, I know that I've,

:

01:06:38,580 --> 01:06:42,140

I've spent weeks telling people when I burnt out,

:

01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:46,780

I'm tired and they were just like, "Oh yeah,

:

01:06:46,780 --> 01:06:48,000

just get more sleep".

:

01:06:48,660 --> 01:06:50,400

I'm not talking this kind of tired.

:

01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:56,480

So I thank you so much for sharing all of that as well and

:

01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,720

your personal experience because I can take a lot and bring

:

01:06:58,720 --> 01:06:59,300

a lot up.

:

01:06:59,900 --> 01:07:05,260

So just to yeah and then I guess to reciprocate in a way

:

01:07:05,260 --> 01:07:10,660

I've previously had to leave a role because of burnout/

:

01:07:10,660 --> 01:07:12,560

mental issues.

:

01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:15,900

All in the past now thank God.

:

01:07:15,900 --> 01:07:17,760

But there was a time,

:

01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:22,240

I think it felt like from my perspective looking back I was

:

01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:25,520

my passion and my interest in my role was being taken

:

01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:28,400

advantage of because they knew I was willing to go above

:

01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:31,120

and beyond my hours or capacity.

:

01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,960

You end up making excuses for yourself which you shouldn't

:

01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:38,600

have to apologise for if you're already going above and

:

01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,160

beyond and there's no more you can do.

:

01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:46,220

And then you set or people then will set they'll

:

01:07:46,220 --> 01:07:49,120

misconstrue that and set unrealistic expectations for you

:

01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:52,680

going forward just because you're giving it your all for an

:

01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:54,600

extended period of time doesn't mean that that's

:

01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:56,600

maintainable for the long term.

:

01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:00,720

And I really appreciate you saying the time off isn't a

:

01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,400

solution and I think that that goes back to the sympathy

:

01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,280

versus empathy because you're sympathetic of how somewhat

:

01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:09,140

you think someone's feeling and you've gone this will solve

:

01:08:09,140 --> 01:08:12,980

everything because I'd like a day off so they're not

:

01:08:12,980 --> 01:08:15,660

considering actually everything else that might be going on

:

01:08:15,660 --> 01:08:18,220

around you and they're not being empathetic they're being

:

01:08:18,220 --> 01:08:22,080

it's a sympathetic thing it's nice that I guess some people

:

01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,460

might appreciate it "oh they're being really flexible and

:

01:08:24,460 --> 01:08:28,080

giving me some time" but it that could contribute to a

:

01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:30,720

relapse that could contribute to oh well I've taken this

:

01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:32,760

this extended because that's what happened with me I was

:

01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:34,220

actually on the cusp of promotion,

:

01:08:34,220 --> 01:08:39,840

I was signed off with anxiety and stress for I think it

:

01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,160

ended up being about three weeks and nothing was really

:

01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:46,120

done in that time to support me for my return and then I

:

01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,500

asked for a flexible return engagement but as soon as I was

:

01:08:48,500 --> 01:08:51,560

back in that office it was bang, nine, ten hours,

:

01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:55,880

back to normal and I was like okay I don't think I was

:

01:08:55,880 --> 01:09:00,160

ready to come back but then I just had so from promotion

:

01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:03,060

and doing really well and being recognised for good work to

:

01:09:03,060 --> 01:09:06,520

I have to leave and completely change my career path was

:

01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:09,060

the result of mismanagement maybe?

:

01:09:09,060 --> 01:09:12,200

I'm not going to obviously state where it was or what

:

01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:16,620

company but I think yeah there's a lot that we need to do

:

01:09:16,620 --> 01:09:19,479

to recognise and be more empathetic for people and how

:

01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:20,460

they're feeling in their roles

:

01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:21,439

I agree.

:

01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:22,800

Thank you for sharing as well.

:

01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:23,640

No, that's fine.

:

01:09:23,779 --> 01:09:26,760

I mean, I just, you know, it's only fair, right?

:

01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:31,080

But so, yeah, I guess, I mean,

:

01:09:31,180 --> 01:09:34,460

thank you so much as always, Mim, for your time today.

:

01:09:35,319 --> 01:09:35,660

My pleasure.

:

01:09:35,660 --> 01:09:36,540

And all those questions.

:

01:09:36,700 --> 01:09:39,720

I know I've thrown more than the sort of pre-planned 'six'

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01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:42,600

that I said initially. It's Okay.

:

01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:44,640

But for now, I guess final thoughts,

:

01:09:44,700 --> 01:09:47,040

if there's anything else that you'd really like to share or

:

01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,240

anything coming up like initiatives or personal projects or

:

01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:51,960

anything you're like passionate about,

:

01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:53,520

that would be really cool to hear about.

:

01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:54,240

Well,

:

01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:57,540

thank you for having me really enjoyed spending that hour

:

01:09:57,540 --> 01:09:58,020

with you.

:

01:09:58,140 --> 01:10:01,320

And I hope people listening and watching will have enjoyed

:

01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:02,740

also. - Ah, they will!

:

01:10:04,940 --> 01:10:05,980

Thankfully, hopefully!

:

01:10:06,580 --> 01:10:09,000

I guess I don't know from the side of the job,

:

01:10:09,020 --> 01:10:09,940

as I've mentioned, for me,

:

01:10:09,980 --> 01:10:13,140

the objective is to grow a little bit my army of Stepstone

:

01:10:13,140 --> 01:10:14,760

accessibility champions.

:

01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:16,640

So if you're a Step Stoner listening,

:

01:10:16,940 --> 01:10:19,260

please get in touch if we haven't spoken already.

:

01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:23,120

on the what we've achieved in:

:

01:10:23,340 --> 01:10:27,100

Because progress is what we are aiming for.

:

01:10:27,700 --> 01:10:30,340

I actually have plans with a few colleagues to organise a

:

01:10:30,340 --> 01:10:33,000

few in-person meetups for global accessibility awareness

:

01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:33,580

day in May.

:

01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:35,340

So watch out for that.

:

01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:38,220

Hopefully, that's something that gets,

:

01:10:38,440 --> 01:10:41,560

gets sorted and organised smoothly as well,

:

01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:43,320

because that would be super cool also.

:

01:10:44,260 --> 01:10:48,360

And yeah, I guess from a personal perspective,

:

01:10:48,420 --> 01:10:50,760

a personal perspective, I've been looking at ways to,

:

01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:53,640

again, widen my accessibility knowledge.

:

01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,240

And I have been toying with the idea of taking a sign

:

01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:57,020

language course.

:

01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:01,340

So I'm holding myself accountable on this chat today.

:

01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:05,060

Look for my options and see where I can learn French sign

:

01:11:05,060 --> 01:11:06,880

language in the in this year,

:

01:11:06,980 --> 01:11:09,020

because I think that would be super nice, actually,

:

01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:13,540

and a good way to build more empathy as well to bring that

:

01:11:13,540 --> 01:11:15,400

back to that very important topic.

:

01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:16,480

Definitely.

:

01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:17,380

Oh, that's amazing.

:

01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:19,680

And it's funny, so I'm going to do the same thing,

:

01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:21,840

because I've got a friend that teaches British Sign

:

01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:23,660

Language, and she's been saying for months,

:

01:11:24,620 --> 01:11:27,200

I'm going to give you like, just come on the course,

:

01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:29,160

it's all remote, like you can, in your free,

:

01:11:29,300 --> 01:11:31,600

whenever you're free, and myself and my wife,

:

01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:33,480

Ashleigh have been like, we'd love to,

:

01:11:33,480 --> 01:11:36,320

like we've always desired to do it, but we just haven't...

:

01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:37,780

I say, haven't had the time,

:

01:11:37,900 --> 01:11:39,140

we haven't given it the time it deserves.

:

01:11:39,660 --> 01:11:43,540

So I'll hold myself accountable, and then hopefully,

:

01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:46,260

both see how our progress goes.

:

01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:50,460

Oh! nice and we can keep each other accountable for that

:

01:11:50,460 --> 01:11:50,940

now.

:

01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:51,260

Definitely.

:

01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,940

there you go fair again, just trying to be fair and open

:

01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:56,380

That's great.

:

01:11:56,580 --> 01:11:57,560

Thank you so much, Joe.

:

01:11:58,000 --> 01:11:58,860

Oh, you're more than welcome.

:

01:11:59,100 --> 01:12:00,580

So yeah, thank you again.

:

01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,840

And I'm sure we'll speak and meet again more throughout the

:

01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:04,040

year.

:

01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:04,400

So, looking forward to that.

:

01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:05,120

Absolutely.

:

01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,000

Thanks again to Mim for her time today and to all of our

:

01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:11,260

listeners.

:

01:12:12,300 --> 01:12:14,360

If you'd like to learn any more about the topics we've

:

01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:14,720

discussed,

:

01:12:15,300 --> 01:12:17,220

then links will be made available and the resources,

:

01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:20,000

or you can feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn.

:

01:12:20,700 --> 01:12:21,440

See you on the next one.

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About the Podcast

The Digital Accessibility Podcast
Interviews with Digital Accessibility Leaders
In The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Accessibility Leaders are interviewed by Joe James about the importance of digital accessibility in business and society.

Joe is a Digital Accessibility Recruiter at PCR Digital with an inquisitive mind and a passion for the space.

Tune in for key insights, personal accounts, and takeaways about the importance of digital accessibility, told by experts.

Contact: joe.james@pcrdigital.com
PCR Digital: https://www.pcrdigital.com/

About your host

Profile picture for Joe James

Joe James

Hi! I'm Joe. I'm a Technical Recruitment Consultant who's worked in a huge variety of industries. Having worked to hire specialists for one of the world leaders in digital accessibility, my own passion for and interest in the field has grown.

My aim is to chat with thought leaders and advocates within the space to raise more awareness of the field in general and help to understand what we can all be doing to ensure all areas of the web/technology are accessible to everyone.