Episode 12

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Published on:

4th Nov 2024

Jeremy Grandstaff - VP of Business Development - CurbCutOS

Jeremy Grandstaff is the VP of Business Development at CurbCutOS. In this episode, Jeremy chats with Joe about his own journey and lived experience within Accessibility, ensuring that workplaces are disability confident, understanding the impact to a companies bottom line A11y has, upcoming regulation changes and the disposable income that companies are missing out on.

Resource Links:

Jeremy's Social Media Links:

Joe's Social Media Links:

Transcript
Speaker:

Hi,

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and welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast. Sponsored

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by PCR Digital, who provide people-centric recruitment.

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I'm Joe,

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I'm a Senior Technical Recruitment Consultant and a huge

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advocate for digital accessibility.

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Throughout the series,

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I'm interviewing thought leaders and professionals within

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the accessibility space to get their thoughts and advice on

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how we can all work together to create a more accessible

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digital world.

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I hope you find this resource insightful and interesting,

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and as enjoyable as I find it,

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speaking to my amazing guests.

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So as always, sit back, relax,

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and I really hope you enjoy the chat.

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Today, I'm joined by Jeremy Grandstaff,

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who is the Vice President of Business Development at

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CurbCutOS.

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CurbCuttOS is a team of disabled-led accessibility

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advocates with over 29 years of combined experience.

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Since 2019,

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their commitment to people with disabilities has fueled

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their drive to create digital experiences that empower,

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inspire, and include everyone.

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So welcome to the podcast, Jeremy.

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Well, thank you, Joe.

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I'm so excited to be guesting for you on your podcast!

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When I listened to your podcast,

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I never imagined that we would be here.

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So that's really exciting to me,

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and good morning from the US.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And I'm so,

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so grateful for all the time in the lead up to this as

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well.

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And the chats that we've had,

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it's been great getting to know you a bit better.

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So I'm hoping that our listeners will get to know you, too,

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and what you do at CurbCut.

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So you initially got in touch, like you've mentioned there,

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after discovering this podcast as a bit of a platform for

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advocacy and giving a voice to the experts in digital

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accessibility.

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So I'm pleased that it's being heard across

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the pond, as we would say.

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But yes, so you've introduced me to what CurbCutOS do.

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So I'm hoping that you could share a bit more with our

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listeners who might not be as aware of you as a company.

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Well, absolutely, Joe,

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and thanks again for the opportunity.

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I always find that starting with numbers makes people

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happy.

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I'm not sure why because for me,

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I get excited about other things.

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But according to the Center for Disease Control (CDC),

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there are one out of four people in the US that have a

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disability.

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You take that worldwide,

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that's approximately 1.85 billion people in the world with

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a disability.

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That's bigger than China, just to put that into context.

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But what it really led me to start looking at was what are

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we losing, right?

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When we put this into dollars,

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there's $13 trillion worth of disposable income that those 1

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.85B people have at their fingertips.

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And ironically, you and I were just talking,

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and that's approximately $7 ,000

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per person that they could spend at websites.

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And if those websites are not accessible to people,

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they're going to take their business elsewhere.

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So everybody always says, what's the business case?

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That's the business case for what we do, right?

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Now, CurbCutOS,

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we have our name because we want to do for digital

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accessibility what the curb-cut effect did for physical

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accessibility.

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And some people really understand that and other people

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don't.

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So I'm going to give an extra sentence on that, right?

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That really what we're talking about is curb cuts were

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developed for people in wheelchairs.

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And now we see moms with strollers using them to get into

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the street and to make street crossings without having to

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pick their strollers up and take them over the curb.

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We see people on bicycles using curb cuts in order to be

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able to get into the street and to be able to ride on the

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street.

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And so curb cut takes a very holistic approach to digital

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accessibility.

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Of course,

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we do aggregated audits and aggregated audits are a

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combination of looking at the user experience and doing an

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audit of user experience and audit of the accessibility on

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a website with our automated audit tool,

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but also with the manual audit to make sure that we're

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catching with all those, you know, with our impact.

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60% more errors than most companies are catching in the

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space.

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Of course,

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we do design reviews and remediation services and training.

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It's really about a holistic approach to your digital

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accessibility journey.

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And it's about looking at how we can improve your bottom

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line as a company.

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Yeah, amazing.

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I will jump in there.

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So obviously being that we're across the pond from one

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another.

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So a curb cut, over here, we would call it a dropped curb.

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I wondered about that when I was prepping today.

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I'm like, I wonder if they call it that over there.

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So yes.

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So there you go.

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So if you're coming to the UK or the British market,

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then yeah, maybe, yeah.

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I mean, it's good to just sort of say, okay,

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it's a dropped curb.

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But you've explained it beautifully there.

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So that's fine.

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And like you say, I think that really,

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it kind of speaks to the,

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the needs of digital accessibility,

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not just for people with disabilities,

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but also temporary or situational,

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quote unquote 'disabilities', um, that people may have.

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So like you said, um, a mother using a stroller, um,

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or a pram.

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I promise I won't translate everything.

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No, I think it's great.

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And I think it's, you know, one of the things,

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and I'll tell you that curb cut effect.

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That's what actually caught my attention.

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When I heard my boss Mark Pound first talk about that,

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I was like, whoa.

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And what really impacted me is to think about, you know,

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I'm a blind guy, right?

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And so obviously accessibility and we'll,

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we'll talk about this more,

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but accessibility is important to me because it's how I've

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had to do my job.

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Right.

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But when you think about digital accessibility,

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it's not just for someone who can't hear or for someone who

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can't see.

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It's thinking about everything from, you know,

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what are the flashing ads across your screen due to someone

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that has a seizure disorder?

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How does it impact someone who is neurodiverse when your

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site is so confusing that they just get lost in it?

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And by the way,

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that's an impact that comes across to everybody,

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not just someone that's neurodiverse, but using that lens,

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we're going to see that.

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Is the language on your website really inviting and

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inclusive to people?

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You know, and I saw someone's,

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I'm not going to call out the name,

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but I saw someone's website that their language that they

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were using.

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I'm not even a person of color, but when I read it,

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I was like, Oh gosh, no!

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Right.

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And,

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and that is a level of accessibility that I think really

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helps to illustrate the holistic impact of digital

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accessibility and what that looks like,

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whether you have a seen or an unseen disability.

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Absolutely, and I think that it shouldn't,

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I think we live in an age where everyone wants to define

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everything, give everything a label,

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and I kind of purposefully didn't introduce you as a blind

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man,

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because I don't think that's what defines you as a person.

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I mean,

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it's not prevented us from doing anything in our calls

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leading up to this,

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and that's thanks to your ability to navigate well with the

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systems that you use to do your job and to have these calls

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and things you know.

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So I don't think it should define you as a person that one

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thing you know there's so much more about you Jeremy and

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yep we're going to get to learn a lot more about that now

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so that's great!

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So that takes us to the second question I guess,

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if we can move on to that one which is if you could share

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your journey of navigating the digital world as a blind

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person and how that's shaped your perspective um even

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further you know from your own lived experience?

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Yeah and this was a really interesting question for me as I

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was thinking through this right and and really looking at

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this I you may find it interesting to know that usually up

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until I took this job I was the only blind guy in the room

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or one of few right and so I this is the first job that

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I've ever actually had where me being blind as an asset and

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and what I can do and and how I can talk about um my own

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personal experience and bring it back to my job right and

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before I always felt myself kind of I don't want to say

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running from it but really making sure that people

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understood that blindness was just a part of my being it

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did not define me right but as I was actually coming back

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and looking at this and thinking about my own journey I'm a

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small town boy I grew up in a little town called Moringo

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Ohio which is about 45 minutes north of the capital of of

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of Ohio Columbus Ohio being one of our states uh here in

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the US there was no public transportation I mean I grew up

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in a town of 200 people at the most right um we lived in

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the country about three and a half miles out of town so as

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a blind kid I rode my bike around everywhere I used to end

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up with little cuts on my fingers.

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I remember being six years old and coming in from riding my

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bike in the morning and I had like these little cuts going

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across my fingers from where I had scraped a mailbox on the

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way by, right?

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We lived on a gravel road, so there wasn't any traffic.

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There's mailboxes, right?

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When I was seven,

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my dad and I figured out a way to put beepers on the three

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barrels that are in a barrel race for horses.

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And so I would listen to the beepers and I would zone in on

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the beepers and that's how I would run the barrels.

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It's kind of a, yeah,

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I'm sure those of you who may not be in horses,

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it's just a pattern of barrels that you do circles around.

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And so I used to do that and I remember being seven years

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old and hearing my dad.

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have a conversation with someone because they felt that me

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having those beepers on the barrels was me cheating, right?

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And and I remember thinking that that was really weird.

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I came up to public school.

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I went to the Ohio State School for the Blind until I was

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nine, I think, and nine or ten,

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and I came up to public school in sixth grade and as this

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is a story that I've actually been talking about a lot,

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Joe, because this is 1988 when I came up to public school.

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There was no process for me to come up to public school.

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There was no process of how I was going to get my books and

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how I was going to be able to do assignments and be able to

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quote unquote assimilate into the normal of, you know,

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going to public school.

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And I, at the age of nine or ten,

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worked with my new teachers to create that process.

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That's kind of fascinating if you think about it.

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When I went to college in 1994,

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I know I'm dating myself totally with this little journey

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we're taking, but when I went to college in 1994,

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I always think about this, right?

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When I went to college for my undergrad,

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they were just getting to the point where they would start

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defining what does it look like if you have an ADA need,

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right?

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And so I distinctly remember staying up all night in the

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first two weeks of classes and scanning all of my books

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because it was easier than trying to wait for the

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Disability Services Office to get me all of my books on

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tape, right?

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When I went to grad school, and I say scanning, by the way,

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because for the first time in my life,

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I had actually found this scanner program.

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program that had OCR.

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And I was like, oh my God,

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I can just scan all my books and they're right there.

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And so rather than trying to explain that to the Disability

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Services Office, I just stayed up and scanned my own books.

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When I went to grad school in 2002, 2003,

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this will show you how much things advanced,

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they were now scanning my books for me.

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And I developed that process and had to figure out,

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you know, my friends will be like,

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why were you at the computer lab all night long?

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Why was I scanning my books?

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Wow, that seems weird.

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Why do you do that?

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Why doesn't someone do it for you?

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Because it was easier for me to do it myself.

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Right.

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So I spent 25 years of my career, like I said,

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being the only blind person in the room.

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And, and literally,

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I know this is the longest part of our journey,

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but I used to facilitate, well, I probably still do,

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I should say,

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but I facilitate rooms of people and many times in the

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conversations that I'm having,

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because I did a lot of collaborative planning,

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collaborative training work, right?

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So there's stuff that people are putting up on the wall,

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on flip charts, and everybody, like,

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I remember standing up in the front of the room one time

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getting ready for a thing,

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and I heard somebody in the back of the room go, oh my God,

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he's a blind guy.

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How's he going to know what we're putting on the wall?

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Well, there's an interesting piece,

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and I'll make sure to get you this link, Joe,

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but I wrote about this on LinkedIn.

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I don't, you know, sometimes you'll see facilitators,

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they'll look around the room and they'll go,

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so what I'm seeing on the flip charts are, I don't do that,

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right?

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Instead,

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I have everybody put their stuff up on flip charts,

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we take a break, everybody goes and votes,

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and the first six people that are done voting,

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I ask to come see me, and their job is to go around,

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circle the big votes, right, the big vote getter items,

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and when we come back as a whole group,

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they report those items out.

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What we've seen in our vote is blah, blah, blah,

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and there's an irony that if every facilitator would take

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that approach,

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they would be able to inspire people because it's the

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people giving the results to their own people,

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rather than me as an outsider giving those results,

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and so I always looked at what are ways that I can empower

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others to lead,

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but at the same time address my own disability problems,

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right, and be able to to do that.

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Right.

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Um,

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and so when I took the job with Kirk cut and I'll just own

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my own vulnerability on your podcast,

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one of the things that I've had to learn is that it's,

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it's absolutely imperative in my job now that I'd be able

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to publicly and comfortably talk about me being the blind

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guy and what that looks like and how that impacts my world

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because for the first time in my life I am in a job where I

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can now go back to the companies that I have fought against

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for 25 years and said,

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man, I wish you were more accessible.

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And now I can say, you know,

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all these conversations that I said,

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I wish you'd fix your accessibility problems.

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I now work for a company that can help you do that

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directly.

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How can I help you?

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And so, yeah.

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So that's just beautiful to for it to come full circle,

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but it's not it's unfortunate that that's the experience

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that you've had and in in so many ways, you know,

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and it's not just yourself, of course, as well,

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that has to deal with that and being in within recruitment

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and I have candidates and people that go on to contract

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work for me that also have disabilities of their own and

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it's the.

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Sometimes reluctance of the end client or they just don't

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even have that question, you know,

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are there any is there anything we can do to make sure that

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you can perform at your job to the best of your ability.

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You don't even have to sort of single out disability in a

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way you just have to I know I know the terminology

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reasonable adjustments and things like that some people are

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uncomfortable with because of course it should be

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reasonable.

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You would think yes.

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It's like, oh, you can't do your job because of X.

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What a shame, you know,

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it's like it's not it's just ridiculous, I think,

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but I really appreciate you sharing that journey with me

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and the audience.

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Jeremy, I know that, you know, sometimes it's not,

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you know,

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you don't want to overly disclose and things like that,

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but that really helps us to sort of understand from your

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perspective as well.

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How what you've had to go through and I've come and great

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that you now have the opportunity to go back to them and be

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like, do you know what?

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I'll just show you how to do things the right way.

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Exactly.

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It's so much fun.

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I love it.

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It's almost like revenge,

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but in the best and most wholesome kind of way.

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Well, I always say, Joe, like,

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ever since I when I started my career, right?

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And even before I came to the job that I have now,

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my mission has always been I want to empower people by

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giving them the tools and the techniques that they need to

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be most successful.

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Yeah,

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and when I did collaborative planning or collaborative

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learning, that's what it was.

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about, right?

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How many times have we sat in a training where people just

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talk at us for an hour?

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And we we say, Oh, wow, that was amazing.

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And we don't do anything with it.

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Right.

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And so my approach was we're going to teach you for 20

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minutes, 30 minutes,

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and then we're going to put you to work and actually give

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you an opportunity to practice it.

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Right.

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And what that looks like.

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Now, it's like I get to look at people and I get to say,

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you know what,

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you and I had several conversations about how you can make

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your products more accessible.

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But I now have a path and a tool that you can use to

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actually do that.

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Let me help you.

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Love.

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And so no, it's amazing.

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Brilliant.

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And then so I guess that that brings us on to the next

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part,

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which is to sort of get to know from you what are some of

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the most common accessibility barriers that you would face

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online or at work.

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And how,

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if you've got any sort of suggestions of how they could or

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should be addressed, if there's anything that, you know,

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immediate that the listeners or myself can start to put

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into practice, that'd be great.

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Yeah, this is a fun question for me as well, right?

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Because I've always been this person who I really didn't

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have a choice, I just kind of had to make it work, right?

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I always worked for companies that were smaller or even

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owned my own company for about 20 years.

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And so there wasn't this ability that I had where I could

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be like,

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you will make this accessible or else I can't do my job,

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I would have lost my job, right?

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And so I think the first piece talking to the end user,

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if you will, is be very careful.

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Because as I look back and I think about this,

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my desire to try to work around an accessibility problem

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would cost me time, which impacts my money.

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And so that's the first thing to really think about.

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And I actually want to give a little props to my friend,

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Rob, who was working with me when I owned my own business.

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And I remember he said,

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how long did it take you to fix that website problem?

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I was like, probably an hour and a half.

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And he goes, Jeremy, you're the CEO of a company.

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You shouldn't be spending an hour and a half trying to fix

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a problem that somebody else could have fixed in 20

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minutes.

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And I was like, yes,

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but just because I'm a blind person doesn't mean I don't

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have the ability to fix it.

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And his response to me, I thought was amazing, right?

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Because he goes,

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I never said- you didn't have the ability to fix it.

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I said spending an hour and 20 minutes of your time doing

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it is probably not the best use of your time at a CEO

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level.

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I thought, that's fascinating to me.

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I had never thought about that.

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Really thinking about from an end -user perspective,

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it's from an end -user perspective, excuse me.

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It's not just, can you do it or can't you do it?

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It's how much time is it going to take you to do it?

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And if you empower someone else on your team to do it,

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can they do it in less time,

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which would make you more effective and efficient in the

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role that you have.

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:

So that's the first piece, right?

461

:

I always kind of jokingly say,

462

:

there are times when the biggest barrier for me has been my

463

:

own stubbornness.

464

:

Great heat and the idea that I want to prove I'm an

465

:

independent blind guy, right?

466

:

So I think we have to be careful that But to your question

467

:

directly,

468

:

you know shopping carts that aren't accessible I Think are

469

:

probably one of the biggest barriers and we just talked

470

:

about this when I opened 13 trillion dollars or $7 ,000

471

:

a person for someone who is disabled that is money that

472

:

they have to spend Why would you want to be a company who

473

:

doesn't get that money?

474

:

Right like that.

475

:

I just don't understand that for me, right?

476

:

I struggle with that No alt tags Or my personal favorite

477

:

undescriptive alt tags and and I think about a Post that I

478

:

saw on LinkedIn the other day In a group that I'm part of

479

:

I'm really trying to I'm trying to keep this generic and

480

:

not call the group out But it was a model that someone had

481

:

posted in their post.

482

:

They didn't talk about the model They just said oh my gosh,

483

:

doesn't this model really show us how xxx?

484

:

Mmm,

485

:

and the the alt tag for the the model that they had posted

486

:

and as the picture said a Model.

487

:

Oh, no, and I was like,

488

:

okay And so I took it I ran it through I used JAWS and JAWS

489

:

has a great Image AI Function right where it runs it

490

:

through chat GPT and I think Claude or something like that

491

:

And it gives you the description right?

492

:

So I ran it through the AI image Interpreter if you will

493

:

and posted in the comments I just wanted you to know,

494

:

here's a better alt tag for your chart that you put in this

495

:

post.

496

:

But what I found fascinating is when I looked at the

497

:

interpretation of JAWS of that chart,

498

:

it actually told me enough about the model that I could

499

:

internalize the model,

500

:

and I remember that model like it's in my head every day.

501

:

There was an irony, by the way,

502

:

when I posted that that someone came back and was like,

503

:

oh my gosh,

504

:

do we really have to be so specific with our alt tags?

505

:

I thought,

506

:

this is a group that's talking about emotional intelligence.

507

:

We absolutely do.

508

:

I see a number of posts like that or even a number of

509

:

websites.

510

:

One of the things that I am really keen on is making sure

511

:

that even curb cut.

512

:

website and social media and things like that is always

513

:

representing what we talk about, you know?

514

:

I call it walking the walk or talking the talk, right?

515

:

If you're going to say accessibility is important to you,

516

:

if you're going to talk about DEI or inclusion,

517

:

then please make sure that your alt tags and your posts are

518

:

written and display in a way that's going to bring

519

:

everybody else into it.

520

:

You know, as I've gotten further into the field,

521

:

I've also been thinking about what we don't know.

522

:

And I'm just going to leave you with a quick thought on

523

:

this one.

524

:

Yeah, sure.

525

:

So before Joe and I started recording today to the

526

:

listeners, we were talking about the crown, right?

527

:

And a show that my family has just become infatuated with.

528

:

And I remember, and this is about three years ago,

529

:

I'm ashamed to tell you, Joe,

530

:

I came late to the audio description party.

531

:

Okay.

532

:

I, I,

533

:

I had sold this audio description version of the movie

534

:

Pretty Woman.

535

:

And I remember Pretty Woman at the time was a really

536

:

favorite movie of mine.

537

:

And after seeing the audio description,

538

:

I was really kind of disappointed because I thought the

539

:

scene showed a lot more.

540

:

You know, remember I was a 14 year old boy, right?

541

:

So, but we're watching the crown, um,

542

:

me and my husband and, and, um,

543

:

we get through like the first three episodes.

544

:

My husband's like, I, I can't watch anymore.

545

:

And I was like, why this is so great.

546

:

I love it.

547

:

Right.

548

:

And he goes,

549

:

because there's so much stuff that is happening,

550

:

that it's just too hard to tell you what's going on.

551

:

And, and, and I was like, well,

552

:

everybody talks about this audio description.

553

:

Maybe we should turn it on.

554

:

And I got to tell you something,

555

:

we ended up going back and watching the three,

556

:

the first three episodes and have now watched the whole

557

:

thing a couple of times.

558

:

And it's because of the audio description.

559

:

I did not even think about some of the things that they

560

:

would tell me some of the looks that you would see between

561

:

the characters, right, where I was like, Oh, wow.

562

:

And I'll tell you three years later,

563

:

audio description is on everything in our house,

564

:

not just for me,

565

:

but because my husband can now look at his phone and not

566

:

have to look at the TV all the time to see what's going on

567

:

because audio description tells him that.

568

:

Right.

569

:

But it really got me thinking about what did I not know

570

:

that was happening, right?

571

:

Like I've learned a lot more about the looks that we give

572

:

each other.

573

:

because I've listened to how people are giving those looks

574

:

in shows that I may be watching with the audio description.

575

:

And I better understand, you know,

576

:

like there's a joke sometimes in my house where I'll be

577

:

like, and Jeremy raised his eyebrows and discussed, right?

578

:

And it's funny because until I actually saw that on audio

579

:

description,

580

:

it never even occurred to me that I was raising my

581

:

eyebrows.

582

:

And I was, right?

583

:

So just, I think that's the big thing.

584

:

So I hope that that helps to address that question.

585

:

I adore that.

586

:

I love that so much.

587

:

It's great.

588

:

And it's amazing.

589

:

It's a similar thing in our household.

590

:

So we always have captions on.

591

:

So my fiance,

592

:

she's had a perforated eardrum for her whole life and it

593

:

was sorted.

594

:

So her hearing is fine.

595

:

Mine is not great.

596

:

It's fine,

597

:

but it's something that I'm getting looked into at the

598

:

moment, but it's not for that.

599

:

It's just because it's so busy.

600

:

Sometimes I'm just like, I just, I can't actually get,

601

:

maybe there's an accent,

602

:

maybe they're speaking too quickly, but if I could,

603

:

or they're speaking in scientific language and I'm like,

604

:

what's that word?

605

:

And then at least it's spelled out for me so I can Google

606

:

it.

607

:

So in a different sort of scenario,

608

:

the captions helped me to sort of ingest that sort of

609

:

additional stuff as well.

610

:

Well, and I think you're making a really good point, right?

611

:

How many times, watch people,

612

:

this is coming from a blind guy right there, right?

613

:

Watch people and you can watch them scrolling through

614

:

videos and they don't have the sound on and it's because

615

:

they can watch the captions, right?

616

:

And if they really want to know what's being said,

617

:

they can watch the captions,

618

:

assuming by the way that they're turned on.

619

:

Of course, no, that's great.

620

:

I mean, and I've spoken to some amazing people that do.

621

:

some great work in audio description here in the UK.

622

:

And yeah, definitely.

623

:

I mean,

624

:

I definitely try and put them in touch with you because if

625

:

there's ever anything that, you know,

626

:

you need any assistance with, then they're the pros.

627

:

So, yeah, I love that.

628

:

I love that you've sort of now come round to that and

629

:

you're like, okay,

630

:

now you're getting that experience that you probably have

631

:

denied yourself.

632

:

Well, I will tell you,

633

:

there sometimes can be a bad aspect to this.

634

:

So we watched for the first time,

635

:

a scary movie with audio description last Sunday.

636

:

And I got to tell you something, Joe.

637

:

I sat there for half an hour afterwards, like, oh my God,

638

:

oh my God, that was crazy.

639

:

And you know, my partner and I were talking and he's like,

640

:

you know what?

641

:

You should go back and watch Poltergeist.

642

:

And I'm like,

643

:

I don't think I have the capacity to do that right now,

644

:

right?

645

:

Like that's, or session nine is one of my.

646

:

favorites,

647

:

but I just don't know that I could handle that on an audio

648

:

description.

649

:

That may just be way too much because the movie we watched

650

:

wasn't that scary, but it had me freaked out.

651

:

Just getting, yeah,

652

:

the access to all that extra stuff that you might not have,

653

:

might not have, um, you know, I thought of as well.

654

:

Oh, amazing.

655

:

Perfect.

656

:

So, um, question four is, um,

657

:

what are some of the things that you have been asked, uh,

658

:

you've asked for from a hirer to make sure that your work

659

:

life is as close to barrier free as possible.

660

:

Um,

661

:

and what can companies be doing to make the workplace more

662

:

inclusive for people, um, with visual impairments or,

663

:

or who are blind?

664

:

Yeah, that's a good question.

665

:

So the first thing I want to do is talk to the end user.

666

:

Your job is to ask their job is to say yes or no.

667

:

If you don't ask,

668

:

you never give them an opportunity to say yes or no.

669

:

And that's really critical, right?

670

:

Um, and I just, I just want to,

671

:

I want to create a pause for that, right?

672

:

That, that if we don't ask,

673

:

they will never be able to say yes or no.

674

:

And there's an irony, by the way,

675

:

that's the same thing we teach recruiters and it's the same

676

:

thing.

677

:

We teach salespeople.

678

:

If you don't ask, they can't say yes or no.

679

:

That's your job, right?

680

:

So for the end user, that's it.

681

:

Now, when I was thinking about my, my own experience,

682

:

I had, and, and I've seen companies who do this well,

683

:

and I've seen companies who don't,

684

:

I'll just be honest with that, about that.

685

:

I'm not going to call out the ones who don't do it well by

686

:

name.

687

:

They might become new clients.

688

:

I hope they do one day.

689

:

Um,

690

:

but when I was recruiting for the time that I was recruiting,

691

:

we were using, um, a software that, that I'll, I,

692

:

I'm not going to also call out,

693

:

but we're using this software.

694

:

and completely unaccessible to me like to the point where I

695

:

had figured out workarounds and then I walked in one

696

:

morning and they had done an update to their software and

697

:

nothing was accessible anymore.

698

:

And I remember you know this is one of those companies that

699

:

like I literally went back and forth for probably three,

700

:

four,

701

:

five weeks and at some point I said either you are going to

702

:

sit down and work with me on this or my next step is to

703

:

either call a lawyer and personally find out what I can do

704

:

or I'm gonna publicly admonish you.

705

:

And there was an interesting piece where the company that I

706

:

worked for actually told me that if I ever talked like that

707

:

to a vendor again that they would fire me.

708

:

Right?

709

:

And so I've never been one to back down from taking a

710

:

stand,

711

:

especially when it comes to me being able to do my job.

712

:

And I wasn't in a position where I could say, well,

713

:

either this gets fixed or I can't do my job because they

714

:

would have said, well, fine, we'll find somebody else,

715

:

right?

716

:

And I know just for those who are thinking it in the US,

717

:

yes,

718

:

there's a borderline discrimination thing here and I get

719

:

that that's a legal discrimination thing.

720

:

Yes,

721

:

I did talk to a lawyer and know it wasn't a suit that anybody

722

:

would take on, right?

723

:

And so sometimes that's how the world is.

724

:

And so what I did in that particular situation is I still

725

:

went back to the company, to our vendor, if you will.

726

:

And I said,

727

:

all I'm asking you to do is sit down and find out what the

728

:

problem is.

729

:

And once I got them to do a Zoom,

730

:

I think it was a Zoom call or a Teams call,

731

:

I showed them what was happening.

732

:

Then they're like, oh my God,

733

:

we don't even know how to fix that, but we want to.

734

:

And so again, your job is to ask.

735

:

They can say yes or no.

736

:

And sometimes that also means that you have to,

737

:

my friend Kate will call out Ms.

738

:

Kate.

739

:

She used to say, Jeremy,

740

:

30% of your job is managing the people who work for you,

741

:

40% of your job is doing your job and the other 30% is

742

:

managing the people you work for.

743

:

And so yes, there are times,

744

:

just as I had to do in that particular case with the

745

:

vendor, where I had to sit my boss down and say,

746

:

you're wrong and I'm fighting this battle.

747

:

And what I need you to do is I need you to just reply all

748

:

and say,

749

:

this is a big problem for us and we'd like you to prioritize

750

:

it.

751

:

And once she did that, they listened to me, right?

752

:

And so sometimes it is about teaching and educating.

753

:

And though as people with disabilities,

754

:

we don't like to teach and educate.

755

:

It just, we just wish everybody got it.

756

:

Sometimes that's your job, right?

757

:

LinkedIn, when I used it as a recruiter, and yes,

758

:

I'm totally calling out LinkedIn because I want this

759

:

addressed, right?

760

:

But it's a simple thing.

761

:

When you go to someone's profile,

762

:

there is no heading one thing where their name is.

763

:

And so it would take me probably seven keystrokes to find

764

:

someone's name so that I could call them by name, right?

765

:

It's an easy fix.

766

:

So that's why I called it out, right?

767

:

But, you know,

768

:

learning how to work within those systems and how to find

769

:

workarounds is amazing, right?

770

:

If you can do that,

771

:

then those are things you can teach other people.

772

:

Like I said, I've seen some companies do it really well.

773

:

When I went and when I started working for IBM,

774

:

for example, Um, this is my first job too.

775

:

I had to go get a new seeing eye dog and IBM actually gave

776

:

me what they called personal business time.

777

:

It means I was paid while I was getting my new dog and

778

:

taking that three weeks off.

779

:

You want to talk about an investment and an employee and

780

:

how wonderful that made me feel I've also worked for a

781

:

company, by the way, who said, well,

782

:

if you're going to go get a new dog,

783

:

you're going to have to make sure that you can still do

784

:

your job while you're gone.

785

:

That's, that's unrealistic, right?

786

:

So it comes down to three things to kind of finalize this

787

:

particular question.

788

:

As I said before, you got to walk the walk.

789

:

If you're a company that you prioritize diversity,

790

:

don't come back and then say, well,

791

:

you're going to have to, um,

792

:

you're not going to be able to,

793

:

to fight the battle for accessibility because diversity and

794

:

inclusion also includes accessibility and bringing

795

:

curiosity and understanding.

796

:

Don't look at accommodations as, Oh my God,

797

:

we have to do this.

798

:

Oh my God, this is terrible.

799

:

How are we going to make this work?

800

:

But be curious.

801

:

Tell me more about how you do your job.

802

:

How can we help me understand my understand that's a weird

803

:

way to say that.

804

:

Help me understand my knowledge of the tools that it takes

805

:

to do your job.

806

:

How can I best support you?

807

:

Right.

808

:

Um, one of the things that I did when I was a recruiter.

809

:

Is, and,

810

:

and it was one of those situations where I worked for a

811

:

company who said, oh, we care about diversity.

812

:

Oh, we want to imply people.

813

:

We want to employ people who are minorities.

814

:

We want to employ people who have disabilities.

815

:

And so one of the things that I did from a recruiter's

816

:

perspective is I started asking before I would book the

817

:

interview with someone, right?

818

:

Is there any accommodations that you need during the

819

:

process?

820

:

And I would do it as part of the conversation,

821

:

not on a form where they could check yes or no,

822

:

but I'd specifically ask, hey, before we decide anytime,

823

:

I just want to ask,

824

:

do you have any accommodations that I can assist you with

825

:

during the interview process?

826

:

And it was fascinating to me because it opened the door.

827

:

It made it okay for people to ask for the accommodations

828

:

that they need.

829

:

It demonstrated that culture of belonging that we were

830

:

trying to create.

831

:

There was an irony that even somebody who didn't need an

832

:

accommodation said,

833

:

I really love that you asked that question.

834

:

That shows me that your company is focused on DEI and

835

:

creating a 21st century workplace.

836

:

Yeah.

837

:

Absolutely.

838

:

I love that.

839

:

As you know,

840

:

part of my job and it's something that I've done from day

841

:

one, partly because I work with digital accessibility,

842

:

we're a host, but also because that's part of our culture,

843

:

really,

844

:

at PCR Digital is very much about getting the best out of

845

:

people and getting the best for people.

846

:

It's a simple thing to ask and it says an awful lot,

847

:

I think, in return, doesn't it?

848

:

Yeah.

849

:

It really does.

850

:

Amazing.

851

:

Brilliant.

852

:

Next question, question five.

853

:

Is there any advice that you'd give to companies or

854

:

individuals who want to make their digital content more

855

:

inclusive, but don't actually know where to start?

856

:

That is a great question, Joe.

857

:

My boss would be very upset at me if I didn't start this

858

:

question by saying,

859

:

contacting me so that I can find out if Curbcutt OS is the

860

:

right partner with you to start on this digital accessible

861

:

journey.

862

:

But notice even in the way that I said that,

863

:

I want to make sure it's not that I want to tell you, oh,

864

:

great, we're perfect.

865

:

We can do this for you.

866

:

It's that I want to see if we're the right partner.

867

:

If we're not, I'm going to hook you up with someone who is.

868

:

There's also a few things that you can start with,

869

:

and some of this I've already mentioned,

870

:

so I'll try to keep it brief,

871

:

but alt tag your images and don't use chart as an alt tag

872

:

description.

873

:

Really look at...

874

:

Your pictures that are on your website or on your social

875

:

media.

876

:

Are you putting an old tag in in those so that people who

877

:

are not able to see those pictures really know what you're

878

:

talking about?

879

:

And I'll even say, you know, take that a step further.

880

:

If you're posting videos.

881

:

Do you have captions in those videos?

882

:

Right?

883

:

That's, that's what we're talking about.

884

:

You take those things and that's a big win just to begin

885

:

with, right?

886

:

So you do alt tags and captions.

887

:

Um, I think that those are critical.

888

:

And by the way, let's just be clear.

889

:

Those are going to connect with everybody,

890

:

not just people who are blind and deaf.

891

:

Um,

892

:

I think the next piece that I always tell people is think

893

:

about your clients or your patrons.

894

:

Okay,

895

:

so do you understand what their user experience is like or

896

:

do you understand what you want their user experience to be

897

:

like as you're designing something, right?

898

:

And those are very different things.

899

:

One of the things that I love to do is to have somebody

900

:

take a look at something that I've written who has no idea

901

:

what I'm writing about and have them, you know,

902

:

joke is rip it apart, right?

903

:

Because many times when I write something,

904

:

I'm so close to it that I think it's written fine.

905

:

And when somebody reads it that doesn't have that knowledge

906

:

level that I do, then they're able to give me more input.

907

:

And so I think the same applies when we're talking about

908

:

designing a client experience.

909

:

And I talk about it as user experience or client

910

:

experience.

911

:

What is it like when they go buy your product, right?

912

:

And they use your store or they go look at your website.

913

:

What is that teaching them?

914

:

What is that saying to them?

915

:

When you've got a shopping cart,

916

:

understand what it is like when people use that shopping

917

:

cart, but also when they abandon, why?

918

:

Why did they abandon?

919

:

Is there some way that like, let's say maybe you connected,

920

:

collected their email address already,

921

:

but they abandoned their shopping cart.

922

:

Is there something where you can send an email that says,

923

:

Hey, we noticed you started buying from us,

924

:

but then you stopped.

925

:

Is there a reason would you please?

926

:

And I actually don't say is there a reason because that's a

927

:

yes or no.

928

:

I would say I'd love to better understand,

929

:

or I'm curious if you would be willing to help me

930

:

understand why you chose to not buy.

931

:

And again, for the record,

932

:

you start asking everybody that you're going to get a

933

:

better understanding.

934

:

of what's working and what's not working in your projects.

935

:

The one thing that I always love to talk about,

936

:

and I used to do this when I was a consultant back in the

937

:

days of collaborative learning and collaborative planning,

938

:

people get things, all people,

939

:

whether they have disabilities or not,

940

:

get things in three different ways.

941

:

They either learn it verbally, viscerally, or visually.

942

:

So verbal is very understanding, right?

943

:

They hear it, or they see it in captions, right?

944

:

That's your way around that.

945

:

Visually, they either can see it,

946

:

or they figure out with an alt tag what you're trying to

947

:

show them, right?

948

:

But it's the visceral that really collect.

949

:

connects with people.

950

:

So when I'm talking about a chart in a presentation,

951

:

for example,

952

:

if I'm giving a presentation and I know I've got a graphic

953

:

on the screen, I might say something like, in our graphic,

954

:

we've done X, Y, and Z.

955

:

And as you can tell, as we start to look at customer,

956

:

I'm making this up, by the way.

957

:

But as you can tell,

958

:

as we start to look at customer demand,

959

:

we can see that it has grown gradually over the last five

960

:

to seven years.

961

:

And before that, it was pretty stagnant.

962

:

Notice the way that I did that,

963

:

I just incorporated the graphic into what I was saying.

964

:

It was just part of my approach, right?

965

:

And it keeps you from having to say things like, now,

966

:

for those of you who can't see what you're gonna be able to

967

:

see in the graph, right?

968

:

Just talk about it.

969

:

And what you'll actually see is there may be somebody who

970

:

has a learning disability that when you viscerally help

971

:

them get it, they're gonna say, oh my gosh, yeah,

972

:

I get that concept.

973

:

I think the last piece is,

974

:

start prioritizing this in your 2025 budget.

975

:

Now,

976

:

I know you've talked about this a lot as I listen to your

977

:

podcast, right?

978

:

So this is not new to your users,

979

:

but the EU has got regulations that are coming out that,

980

:

and correct me if I'm wrong, Joe,

981

:

are basically saying that things need to be accessible by

982

:

2025, June, I believe it is.

983

:

The US is working on a bill that has the 508 refresh

984

:

because 508 standards have not been updated in so long.

985

:

And so let's just start right now by prioritizing it in

986

:

your budget.

987

:

Put a line item in, and when you're doing it,

988

:

Work with a company that is going to help you

989

:

systematically and holistically make sure that digital

990

:

accessibility and access for all to your digital assets is

991

:

just part of the strategy.

992

:

It's just part of how you do development or how you do

993

:

design.

994

:

It's just, as we like to say, baked in.

995

:

And my friend Kirk Adams will say, you know,

996

:

it's much easier to put stuff in something before you've

997

:

baked it.

998

:

Not after.

999

:

Right.

:

00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:32,820

And I apologize to Kirk publicly.

:

00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:34,400

I just butchered the analogy.

:

00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:36,480

But I think you get the point.

:

00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:38,380

I love that.

:

00:49:38,860 --> 00:49:39,380

Yeah,

:

00:49:39,500 --> 00:49:42,280

that's another visual way to teach the listeners as well.

:

00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,520

Like, um, but yeah,

:

00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,760

I think I may have heard that analogy before.

:

00:49:45,940 --> 00:49:47,880

So it's a bit like when you put chocolate chips in a,

:

00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,920

in a cookie or, um, after, after the fact is like, well,

:

00:49:52,140 --> 00:49:54,760

you're just going to be mashing them in there.

:

00:49:54,780 --> 00:49:56,860

Like you kind of want them part melted, right?

:

00:49:57,540 --> 00:49:57,720

Yeah.

:

00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:58,300

And I think,

:

00:49:58,500 --> 00:50:01,140

and actually I think that was the missing part of my

:

00:50:01,140 --> 00:50:02,140

analogy, right?

:

00:50:02,220 --> 00:50:05,360

Is it's much easier to put the chocolate chips in the

:

00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:06,780

cookie before you made the cookie.

:

00:50:07,180 --> 00:50:10,140

Um, but I think the other piece of this, and,

:

00:50:10,140 --> 00:50:12,940

and I know there's so many people who are focused on

:

00:50:12,940 --> 00:50:14,840

compliance, right?

:

00:50:15,180 --> 00:50:19,420

And if that's where your digital accessible journey starts,

:

00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:20,620

fantastic.

:

00:50:21,420 --> 00:50:22,580

I'm going to honor that.

:

00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:23,200

Right.

:

00:50:24,020 --> 00:50:27,060

Um, but don't just do it to be compliant.

:

00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,580

Do it because you want to increase your customer base.

:

00:50:32,020 --> 00:50:37,420

Do it because you want to make your products or your

:

00:50:37,420 --> 00:50:40,020

services connect with all.

:

00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,640

And most importantly, just because, you know,

:

00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,220

we can't stay in business unless we're doing it,

:

00:50:48,820 --> 00:50:51,000

do it because you want to increase your bottom line.

:

00:50:51,820 --> 00:50:52,220

Yeah.

:

00:50:53,260 --> 00:50:53,280

Right.

:

00:50:53,660 --> 00:50:54,560

And yeah, yeah.

:

00:50:54,660 --> 00:50:54,980

Yeah.

:

00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:57,180

I think it can be that simple.

:

00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:58,200

And it's a,

:

00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,440

it's a shame that it's not seen as that for so many,

:

00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:01,620

you know, so many people.

:

00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,340

I'd love for it to be more organic and you know,

:

00:51:06,580 --> 00:51:08,920

because it is the right thing to do to be inclusive and to

:

00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,720

make sure everyone has access to your products and

:

00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:11,160

services.

:

00:51:11,540 --> 00:51:14,380

But if that's not what, you know, floats your boat or,

:

00:51:14,660 --> 00:51:14,780

you know,

:

00:51:14,940 --> 00:51:18,840

you need to be a box sticker or you need to increase the

:

00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,340

bottom line, you know, then there are ways.

:

00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,120

And I mean, yeah,

:

00:51:24,260 --> 00:51:26,180

digital accessibility touches on all of that.

:

00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:27,360

So I,

:

00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,440

it's funny you say that joke because I've had four people

:

00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,860

that have tried to sell me something in the past month,

:

00:51:34,860 --> 00:51:36,820

you know, I'm VP of business development, right?

:

00:51:36,820 --> 00:51:40,920

So I get a lot of phone calls and conversations around how

:

00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:42,980

can we help you generate, right?

:

00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:44,520

Generate more leads and stuff.

:

00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,840

And of course, I'm, I'm new in my position.

:

00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,400

So I wanted to do my due diligence and make sure we

:

00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,560

weren't, you know, ignoring software.

:

00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,400

The number of three out of those four people,

:

00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,160

when I literally I mean,

:

00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,680

they're selling to someone who works for a digital

:

00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:02,640

accessibility company,

:

00:52:03,020 --> 00:52:06,020

it's really not that hard to believe that my first question

:

00:52:06,020 --> 00:52:07,960

was going to be is your product accessible,

:

00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:08,600

right?

:

00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,160

And three out of the four people said to me, well,

:

00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:13,120

you don't understand.

:

00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,400

Disabled people really don't represent a lot of the people

:

00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:19,540

that we work with.

:

00:52:19,700 --> 00:52:21,840

And so this is just not a high priority to me.

:

00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:22,900

Wow.

:

00:52:23,380 --> 00:52:27,700

And I was so this literally happened to me for, you know,

:

00:52:27,780 --> 00:52:31,080

this goes back to what I was talking about earlier, right?

:

00:52:31,420 --> 00:52:32,240

Sometimes you have to be Mr.

:

00:52:32,500 --> 00:52:33,700

Educator, and it's so frustrating.

:

00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:35,020

all the time to do that.

:

00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,380

And I remember this is four,

:

00:52:37,540 --> 00:52:40,200

three people out of four people that I met with that week

:

00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:41,260

had said this to me.

:

00:52:41,620 --> 00:52:46,840

And I thought in my head, what's wrong with you, right?

:

00:52:47,020 --> 00:52:52,780

And so I had to be very careful because as you start to

:

00:52:52,780 --> 00:52:54,680

have this happen more and more, you're like,

:

00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,260

what's wrong with you?

:

00:52:56,340 --> 00:52:58,660

And the minute that you take that approach,

:

00:52:58,660 --> 00:53:01,760

and this goes back to advice that I would give in user,

:

00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,860

it's not that there is something wrong with the other

:

00:53:05,860 --> 00:53:08,360

person, it's that they don't understand.

:

00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:14,440

It's that they're not either you haven't done a good job of

:

00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,480

helping them understand, or they're just not gonna get it.

:

00:53:18,980 --> 00:53:23,920

And so I always live my life saying,

:

00:53:25,060 --> 00:53:27,720

what could I have done better to help that person on their

:

00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:28,920

journey, right?

:

00:53:29,460 --> 00:53:31,680

And so that also means, by the way,

:

00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,200

it's really hard for me to walk away sometimes and be like,

:

00:53:34,260 --> 00:53:35,660

nope, you're just not gonna get it.

:

00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,320

But our job is to help people get it.

:

00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:43,200

And the more we can remember that sometimes it's just about

:

00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,560

education, sometimes it's about showing people, right?

:

00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:49,200

Different things are gonna connect,

:

00:53:49,340 --> 00:53:52,240

but what will always connect when it comes to accessibility

:

00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,960

is we're improving your bottom line.

:

00:53:55,420 --> 00:54:00,520

And any CEO who ignores that statement probably isn't gonna

:

00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:01,440

get it.

:

00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:03,200

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

:

00:54:03,780 --> 00:54:06,600

It's that awareness, and yeah, exactly, amazing.

:

00:54:07,900 --> 00:54:10,640

Cool, so I mean, I've taken up a lot of your time, Jeremy,

:

00:54:10,820 --> 00:54:12,620

over the last couple of weeks and today,

:

00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,280

so that brings me to final thoughts.

:

00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,580

So I always like to give an opportunity to our guests to

:

00:54:18,580 --> 00:54:20,620

share something of importance to you at the moment,

:

00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:24,480

either within accessibility in your job or just events that

:

00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,000

you have coming up or something in your own personal life

:

00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:28,820

you'd like to share.

:

00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:33,980

So I really...

:

00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:35,540

thought very hard about this.

:

00:54:37,100 --> 00:54:38,360

There's a story,

:

00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,920

and I should have looked this up last night,

:

00:54:41,420 --> 00:54:43,100

because I don't want to butcher it,

:

00:54:43,220 --> 00:54:46,360

but on the back of the US dollar,

:

00:54:47,060 --> 00:54:49,880

it's either the seal or the pyramid that's unfinished.

:

00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,540

I can't remember which one, and I apologize for that.

:

00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,480

But one of them's unfinished.

:

00:54:57,060 --> 00:55:03,420

And it's unfinished because when we were put together as a

:

00:55:03,420 --> 00:55:06,060

country we were unfinished.

:

00:55:07,100 --> 00:55:09,460

And I've always kept that back in my head, right?

:

00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:10,780

That's the political side.

:

00:55:10,980 --> 00:55:14,240

We're supposed to debate and learn from each other in order

:

00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:17,480

to, you know, grow as a country.

:

00:55:17,660 --> 00:55:21,960

But I've always kind of had that philosophy in my own head.

:

00:55:22,140 --> 00:55:23,660

We can always do better.

:

00:55:24,820 --> 00:55:29,420

My own story has been always, how can I do better, right?

:

00:55:30,020 --> 00:55:30,590

There's not...

:

00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:37,540

There's never been a time in my life where I've just been

:

00:55:37,540 --> 00:55:39,300

like, okay, that's great, I'm fine.

:

00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,620

I'm always thinking about how can we do it better?

:

00:55:43,180 --> 00:55:46,240

Even my own journey of learning in the world of digital

:

00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:50,460

accessibility actually had nothing to do with I want to

:

00:55:50,460 --> 00:55:51,500

learn about accessibility.

:

00:55:51,740 --> 00:55:55,620

It was more how can I learn how to remove the barriers that

:

00:55:55,620 --> 00:55:56,960

are in front of me?

:

00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:06,140

And so the idea that I ended up in the digital

:

00:56:06,140 --> 00:56:09,840

accessibility space is fascinating to me because that

:

00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:10,720

wasn't my intent.

:

00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,840

My intent was just to learn enough that I could do in order

:

00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:15,320

to fix my own problems.

:

00:56:16,260 --> 00:56:24,960

But I bring that same curiosity that I just advised people

:

00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:29,420

to bring to the digital accessibility journey, right?

:

00:56:30,100 --> 00:56:38,060

And I think if we all approach it from learning and we all

:

00:56:38,060 --> 00:56:40,520

approach it with curiosity and we all approach it with

:

00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,020

increasing understanding,

:

00:56:42,260 --> 00:56:45,780

how can we do better than together within the field of

:

00:56:45,780 --> 00:56:46,880

digital accessibility,

:

00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:51,700

we can overcome these barriers of accessibility for all

:

00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:52,240

people.

:

00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,240

And once we start doing that, then as a field,

:

00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,380

we're going to start to increase those year over year

:

00:56:59,380 --> 00:57:00,000

improvements.

:

00:57:00,720 --> 00:57:03,320

And let's be honest, as a field,

:

00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,640

we're making 1% to 2% improvements a year.

:

00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:12,260

That is not fast enough and it is not holistic enough.

:

00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:18,520

And so I'm just honored that I'm working for a company and

:

00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:23,800

working with partners who really want to focus on moving

:

00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:28,060

that to a higher percentage and removing the barriers that

:

00:57:28,060 --> 00:57:29,080

exist for all people.

:

00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,820

And one of the things that I actually love about curb cut

:

00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,960

and the partners that we work with and the clients that

:

00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:40,320

we're working with is they get that it's not just about

:

00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,960

someone who's blind or it's not just about someone who's

:

00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:44,260

deaf,

:

00:57:44,260 --> 00:57:48,940

but it's about removing barriers of access for everyone.

:

00:57:50,180 --> 00:57:55,060

And as we start to move into building a 21st century world,

:

00:57:56,300 --> 00:57:57,460

that's critical.

:

00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,420

It is absolutely critical.

:

00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:02,520

Oh, I'd love it.

:

00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,720

And yeah, oh my God, Jeremy,

:

00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,100

I have adored this conversation and all of our

:

00:58:10,100 --> 00:58:10,680

conversations.

:

00:58:11,140 --> 00:58:12,480

You are such a great guy.

:

00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,840

Not just because you've given me your time,

:

00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:17,860

just in general.

:

00:58:19,020 --> 00:58:21,260

It's always a laugh, it's always great talking to you.

:

00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,380

I'm surprised we've made it through without swearing,

:

00:58:23,620 --> 00:58:24,240

so that's good.

:

00:58:24,500 --> 00:58:25,500

Thank you for that.

:

00:58:27,420 --> 00:58:28,720

Considering the topic as well.

:

00:58:28,820 --> 00:58:31,540

I do have my moments, Joe, I have my moments.

:

00:58:32,100 --> 00:58:33,600

We all do, don't you worry.

:

00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:37,900

But no, thank you so much for joining me on the episode.

:

00:58:38,100 --> 00:58:41,660

I know that you've got your own stuff coming soon as well,

:

00:58:41,660 --> 00:58:45,460

with potential podcasts coming up, which would be great.

:

00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,140

So we'll definitely plug that wherever we can.

:

00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:51,820

KerberOS sounds amazing,

:

00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,500

and the work that you're all doing over there.

:

00:58:55,060 --> 00:58:57,780

I really hope that this reaches some more clients for you,

:

00:58:57,780 --> 00:59:02,180

and it'd be great to hear if that's been able to happen.

:

00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:04,760

I just wish you every success.

:

00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:06,880

Well, I appreciate that, Joe.

:

00:59:07,940 --> 00:59:11,360

You have been doing some amazing work at PCR Digital.

:

00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:15,100

I'm really excited about the holistic approach that you

:

00:59:15,100 --> 00:59:16,960

bring to the recruiting you're doing,

:

00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,960

and even to the podcast episodes that I've listened to.

:

00:59:21,220 --> 00:59:23,400

So it's an honor to be with you.

:

00:59:23,780 --> 00:59:27,280

We'll definitely make sure that there's contact information

:

00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:28,180

in there for me,

:

00:59:28,180 --> 00:59:36,420

but I look forward to you being a guest on the KerberOS

:

00:59:36,420 --> 00:59:40,580

podcast, which we'll be launching over the next two months,

:

00:59:40,980 --> 00:59:44,240

and just all the other stuff that we have coming to

:

00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:44,660

fruition.

:

00:59:45,260 --> 00:59:49,600

So definitely appreciate your support and what you're doing

:

00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,440

within the field of digital accessibility,

:

00:59:51,540 --> 00:59:54,920

and look forward to this being one of many,

:

00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,300

many more collaborations.

:

00:59:56,300 --> 00:59:57,840

Oh, I'd love that.

:

00:59:58,240 --> 00:59:58,260

Absolutely.

:

00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:00,200

If I'm ever over on your side of the pond,

:

01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:02,320

then I'll definitely be giving you a call.

:

01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:04,180

I will do the same.

:

01:00:04,420 --> 01:00:05,440

That would be so neat.

:

01:00:07,180 --> 01:00:07,440

Love it.

:

01:00:07,780 --> 01:00:08,360

Thanks again, Jeremy.

:

01:00:08,620 --> 01:00:09,140

Thanks so much.

:

01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:10,180

Thank you.

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About the Podcast

The Digital Accessibility Podcast
Interviews with Digital Accessibility Leaders
In The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Accessibility Leaders are interviewed by Joe James about the importance of digital accessibility in business and society.

Joe is a Digital Accessibility Recruiter at PCR Digital with an inquisitive mind and a passion for the space.

Tune in for key insights, personal accounts, and takeaways about the importance of digital accessibility, told by experts.

Contact: joe.james@pcrdigital.com
PCR Digital: https://www.pcrdigital.com/

About your host

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Joe James

Hi! I'm Joe. I'm a Technical Recruitment Consultant who's worked in a huge variety of industries. Having worked to hire specialists for one of the world leaders in digital accessibility, my own passion for and interest in the field has grown.

My aim is to chat with thought leaders and advocates within the space to raise more awareness of the field in general and help to understand what we can all be doing to ensure all areas of the web/technology are accessible to everyone.