Episode 11

full
Published on:

16th Jul 2024

Helen Burge - Director of Accessibility @ Testlio

Helen Burge is the Director of Accessibility at Testlio. In this episode, she chats with Joe about her journey within Accessibility, key assumptions we should try to avoid, utilising lived and learned experience, upcoming regulation changes and the avoidable fines and repurcussions associated with them.

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Transcript
Speaker:

Hi, and

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welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast sponsored by

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PCR digital who provide People-Centric Recruitment.

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I'm Joe,

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I'm a senior technical recruitment consultant and a huge

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advocate for digital accessibility.

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Throughout the series I'm interviewing thought leaders and

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professionals within the accessibility space to get their

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thoughts and advice on how we can all work together to

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create a more accessible digital world.

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I hope you find this resource insightful and interesting

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and as enjoyable as I find it speaking to my amazing

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guests.

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So as always sit back,

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relax and I really hope you enjoy the chat.

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Today I'm joined by Helen Burge,

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Director of Accessibility at Testlio.

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Testlio is the originator of fused Software Testing.

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Their approach leverages a software testing platform,

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partnerships and integrations with DevOps leaders and a

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global services delivery team in over 150 countries.

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Together,

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Testlio powers quality assurance and Helen heads up their

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digital accessibility which we're going to learn a bit more

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about today.

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So welcome to the podcast Helen.

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Thank you for having me.

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You're more than

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welcome, I'm really pleased that you're here!

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I love that kind of response.

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So, I guess we'll jump straight in.

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I'd really like to start by asking about your background

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and your first steps into the accessibility space.

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Okay, well it was a bit of an accident how it started.

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I was at university and a friend of mine who just happened

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to be blind had to use me as a tool and I know that people

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make jokes about being a tool in a situation but in this

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situation I was the tool and that was to move her computer

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focus onto her media player so she could listen to her

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music.

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And it was a bit shocking and helped me realise how

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important accessibility was at that point,

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because a small change a developer could make would have

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stopped her from having to rely on me to be the tool.

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And as other accessibility experts have stated before,

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people are not disabled by their disability itself but by

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their environment.

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And this was a real eye-opener for me because she was

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disabled by the media player not getting keyboard focus,

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which since I've been doing accessibility was not a massive

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change, but it would have made a massive change for her.

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Yeah, and I think it is that, like you say,

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it's instantly just that realisation,

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something you might not have thought of yourself as a user

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that wasn't blind.

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But yeah, what an amazing eye-opener.

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So that was your first entry into that world, I suppose.

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Yes, I went to university.

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I did a degree in business information technology at

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Bournemouth and it covered everything except for testing

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and accessibility.

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So despite that, I went into a job of testing.

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So every testing job,

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because I started off as a manual tester hidden in the

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cupboard, usual kind of thing for all of us.

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And I'd always do accessibility as a side bit.

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It wasn't my main job,

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but it was always something I wanted to join into my main

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testing role.

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And I even took on the job of training some designers about

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contrast ratios and all the rest of it.

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It might not have been my job,

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but I like to share the passion and the education.

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I always enjoy helping others to learn the simple steps

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they can make to enable people to not be disabled by their

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products.

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Amazing.

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That's perfect and I think it is hard sometimes,

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because as you know,

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I speak to a lot of people in the space, as do you, a

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nd there are quite a lot of assumptions that you think the

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people that work in this space all have their own needs or

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they are disabled by products because they have conditions,

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temporary or permanent or disabilities.

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But it's not always the case.

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Sometimes you get some great empaths like yourself that

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have that experience and think, right,

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I'm going to make sure that, you know,

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things like what can I do to assist or be that tool and

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then raise that advocacy as well and the awareness.

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Well, I have to admit,

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I love the way you called me an empath.

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I like to think I'm just a watcher of other humans.

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And I just know from my own personal experiences and then

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talking to people with different disabilities,

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how I started off with a very narrow understanding.

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And as I've gone through, as with all time,

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I've learned that I've been a bit of an Egit in the past.

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That's Irish for idiot.

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So basically things like,

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I did a talk on it for AccessU for GAAD about the

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assumptions I used to make and how not all of them were my

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assumptions.

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Some of them were assumptions told to me,

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but it was more about talking about them so that people

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would hopefully learn from my own learnings over time.

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Like I always assumed blind people were fully blind because

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my blind friend.

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she was fully blind.

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That was an assumption.

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That was one person's experience.

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It doesn't mean that represents all blind people.

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And when I look at the stats, only 15% are fully blind.

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If they're legally blind,

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it's like I have another blind friend who was telling me he

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saw someone falling over and laughed and I was like, what?

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He's like yeah,

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people always find that funny when I tell them and I'm

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blind and it's like, I've got tunnel vision,

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which means I'm legally blind.

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I find it hard in dark situations, but I have some sight,

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not a lot, but some,

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which means he will always see it when you fall over and

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laugh and point.

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He's my kind of person.

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Absolutely.

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And I think that brings nicely into the next sort of

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section and the next question as well.

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And it's around that lived experience.

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So we've talked in the past about the differences between

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lived and learned experience.

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So I just, yeah,

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if you can delve into a bit more detail in that sort of

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space, it would be really helpful.

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Sure.

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Well,

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I have given you a story that's my learned experience because

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it's me talking to people about their lived experiences.

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There is that saying,

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you need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes,

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but you can't.

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Partly because I've got different sized feet from you,

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but also partly because no one can truly understand another

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human.

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They can listen to them.

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They can try to understand.

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But for me, my lived experiences,

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I've got a hidden disability of diabetes,

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type 1 diabetic since I was seven.

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And when I try to explain my blood sugar levels in the fact

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that if I've got low blood sugar,

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my common sense will disappear.

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I'll be a bit slower on the up.

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take and I'll find it harder to talk,

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which the foot-in-mouth kind of thing is more likely to

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happen, I have no sense,

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or I remember once I thought the word clown didn't make any

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sense and I was focused on this,

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and for me at that moment it seemed logical,

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but trying to explain it to someone else,

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they don't truly understand that lapse of judgment.

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The only thing I can really equate it to is if you're

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drunk, that's how you come across like you're drunk,

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which is why type 1 diabetics sometimes end up dying if

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they are hypo on the streets and the police assume that

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they're intoxicated and they get put into a prison cell.

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So one of my biggest fears is that,

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which is why I don't partake anymore, but it's like that,

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but it's not quite the same.

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And I often find, like even my husband,

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he understands enough, but every time I get angry with him,

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he always asks me to do a blood test because he assumes I

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must have high blood sugars rather than be annoyed at him.

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I always find that one interesting.

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I don't know if other diabetics' husbands have that

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reaction to their anger.

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I don't know,

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but it's him learning through what I'm telling him,

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him trying to understand.

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But he doesn't truly know how it feels and also how him

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saying that will make that anger if it's justified just a

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little bit more.

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But yes,

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so my lived experience with diabetes does mean that

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sometimes my mind will be not as good as it can be.

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And I always apologize to people afterwards,

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like if I felt I was a bit cloudy with my judgment and I

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thought maybe I said something daft.

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And unfortunately, most people don't notice.

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They think that's normal Helen,

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which does worry me sometimes.

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But it is one of those you notice yourself more than anyone

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else does.

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And the lived experience is just that same for my children.

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I've got two gorgeous boys,

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both neurodivergent in different ways.

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And I'm always talking about them because they illustrate

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how both under the umbrella of neurodivergency,

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but very different needs.

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So my youngest, who's three,

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is non-verbal autistic and doing lots to try and enable him

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to communicate with us.

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Shoving me into a cupboard next to the snack he wants to

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eat tends to be one of the things he does quite well.

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He's very, very strong.

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We've had a lot of nurses and that saying, oh,

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he's very strong.

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It's like, yeah, he knows how to communicate.

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But we work with him.

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We try to communicate.

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Obviously, I don't push him around.

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I tried to talk to him but it's keeping it simple,

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repetitive words but the biggest thing with him is I'm

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always having to chase him to stop him from killing himself

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because he's got no awareness of danger and he has like

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fallen off from a great height from climbing onto window

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sills and so on falling off, bitten his lip,

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five minutes later trying to do it again with the blood

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dripping.

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Most children would have learnt the first time but no he

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doesn't so I have to be more aware of his surroundings

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whereas my eldest who's eight has dyspraxia or

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developmental coordination disorder which used to be known

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as clumsy child syndrome and I have been stood next to him,

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we're waiting for his dad to arrive in the car,

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we stood on the pavement or sidewalk if you're American and

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he stood still not doing anything.

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and suddenly he's fallen off the pavement.

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It was about that far away from the curb as well,

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the edge of it, and he'll fall off,

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like he's not even moving and that's just down to his

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dyspraxia, it's not down to anything else.

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He wasn't even fidgeting and he cut his knee.

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So I have to be aware that, I don't know,

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have you ever watched that film where Bruce Willis is

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really Glass, is it?

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You've got Bruce Willis who doesn't get hurt at all and is

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going into all these situations and then you've got the

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other guy, whose name I've completely forgotten, Samuel L.

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Jackson,

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who's completely brittle and he breaks all the time.

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So my eldest is Glass,

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the one that breaks and my youngest is the tough one who,

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although he does get hurt,

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will often giggle again hurt and just carry on regardless.

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So I have two extremes under the neurodiverse umbrella.

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It definitely keeps you on your toes it seems.

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Yeah and of course those are their lived experiences.

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My experience is a caregiver,

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which is different again because I probably have all the

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grey hairs.

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But I can share it with people and I get the people going,

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oh that sounds really interesting and so on.

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But I think with anyone,

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even if you've got children that have extra needs as well,

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each person has a unique experience and I think that's one

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thing we have to try and remember in accessibility.

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We can learn from other people but our lived experience

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will be unique to us.

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Definitely and I think a key factor I suppose is that

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listening, being able to listen,

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take it on board and try your best to not make those

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assumptions.

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And I guess that feeds into the motto,

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nothing with us without us, doesn't it?

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I think it's very much that including all manner of users

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in your testing is so highly important because you can have

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what you assume to be a fully accessible platform or

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service based on the user group that you've tested with,

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but actually that could then cause it to be inaccessible to

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others.

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So it's, I don't think your job's ever going to be done,

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Helen, but it keeps a lot of people in work.

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I do have a favourite question from clients.

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When will I meet 100% accessibility?

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And I'm always like, that'd be great.

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it's never going to be possible because we are so unique

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each of us and like you say we'll work for one user group

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and if you focus on that user group and do some usability

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studies with them getting it working for their needs you

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will alienate another user group with the same defined

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condition because they have a different experience with

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that.

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It's like when I've done usability studies with people that

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have less mobility so they're using voice recognition

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software and when they're trying to click on a button that

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isn't labeled properly I'm always like aren't you

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frustrated by that?

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Because they have to do this grid thing split the screen

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down into grids go to that grid to literally tell the

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screen which area of it to focus on and then click and the

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time that takes can be quite exhausting,

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this is using dragon naturally speaking.

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And they're like "oh no that's actually quite good it was

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quite a big button I could focus on it easily" and I'm like

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their levels of acceptance can be very different from mine

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because I get frustrated on their behalf and then I realize

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I'm that can be quite patronizing to feel frustrated on

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someone else's behalf

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because it's down to them to tell me if they're frustrated

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not me and it is quite humbling to realize that also

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thinking for others is not a great idea like with my

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husband and the blood tests it ends up alienating your

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audience more like when um

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There are some people that will have focus moving for

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people because they assume someone who's the screen reader

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will want the focus to move to this new item they've just

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selected to show but what about users that don't use a

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screen reader that use a keyboard alone and then I get to "

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oh yeah but it doesn't matter they can see where they're

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going and they can just.." but isn't that dismissing one

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over the other?

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And they're like "but then how does the person who's using

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a screen reader know that there's content that's showing?"

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you could tell them and then they can choose what they want

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to do.

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I think it's often not thinking for others not forcing what

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you think they want to do on them but letting them know

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informing them so they can decide themselves and I'm sure

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my parents will say yes stop doing that to us Helen.

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It doesn't matter who you are there's always gonna be

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someone that you think you know better than,

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like with my kids my parents but the reality is I cannot

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think for someone else I can just advise them what I think

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might be a good idea.

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Sorry I went on a bit of a soapbox there.

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No it's poignant and I agree and I think it's I think a lot

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of people, a lot of companies,

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have the tendency to prioritize certain user groups.

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And I think that the prioritization needs to shift from

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what they imagine to be profitability,

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those who they believe to be the majority,

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who are quote unquote 'able-bodied' people,

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or those without any additional sort of needs,

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or that use assistive technologies,

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and make it more of a flat level,

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because actually there's 15% of the globe that do have some

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form of disability, and it's a huge user group.

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And you'll probably get a lot more appreciation from them

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than users that don't have assistive technologies enabled.

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So yeah, I completely agree,

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and I think that it's a shame that we do that sort of

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thing, and prioritize,

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or even prioritizing within different user groups,

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and saying well actually those who have the use of a screen

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reader,

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they have to be the top priority would do that first.

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But I think that that can feed into the technical side of

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things, can't it?

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Because if it's keyboard only access, it should, in theory,

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work with other.. umm..

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I know, I'm not the person to be saying that,

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I'm not the person to be..

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It doesn't, to be honest,

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I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're

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saying, though.

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But it is,

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that's where you end up going down a rabbit hole if you're

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not careful.

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It's like when you have someone who's aware of ARIA,

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accessible rich internet applications?

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If I got that right, yay!

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But yes, when a developer learns about it,

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and then applies ARIA to everything,

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when it's already accessible because they've used HTML5

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correctly,

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the over-labeling can then cause duplication of labels,

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or even labels to be completely blank, because the ARIA,

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labeled by ID is empty kind of thing.

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So sometimes, or one of my favorites as well,

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one of my clients was trying to be really good with screen

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readers.

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So they put tab index on all non-actionable items,

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so paragraphs or text.

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And it wasn't because they were trying to kill the keyboard

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-only user,

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but it was because they didn't understand how the screen

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reader worked.

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And they assumed that tabbing was the way that they focused

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items.

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They didn't understand all the different keys that could be

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used.

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And sometimes it's not about them being mean.

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It's more about education and understanding.

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And after I pointed out how a screen reader user can

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interact, they took the tab index off.

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But it's not,

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I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to be

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accessible, but trying without the understanding can be.

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a bit like when you let your child have a box of matches

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and don't explain that they're not good to light with um

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petrol nearby say

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So, a little bit dramatic there but it makes a point.

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It does a very a very big one!

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and I agree um but amazing so you mentioned you did say

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an "Irish" term earlier so uh brings me on to the next

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question here so um when we first originally spoke you were

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still living in england working for ability net but since

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then you have moved to Ireland and now you're working as

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the Director of Accessibility at Testlio so a fantastic

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opportunity for you to to really sort of head things up and

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affect real change.

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So i'd love to hear about that journey and how that came

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about and if there are any sort of immediate challenges

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because of that you know that new role and and you know

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senior title as well?

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It was quite good in the fact that I was offered a job just

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at the time when there was political unrest going on in

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England and the job meant I had to relocate to Ireland and

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that was working for optum and I loved the chance to move

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to Ireland and be able to buy a house an hour from the

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capital with three acres of land so that's made my husband

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very happy because he's always dreamed of being a small

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holding owner we're not quite you know three acres not

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quite there but it's enough to get a few animals and so on

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with work in progress but I wouldn't for the same cost in

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england wouldn't have that ability to buy that kind of

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property so it just it gave me the opportunity to maybe

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pursue a dream of my husband however I have to admit,

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the Irish way things can be quite laid back compared to the

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English.

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Like if you order something from a delivery company in

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England,

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you get it next day without any extra payments and so on.

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In Ireland, you're lucky if you get it next week.

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But it's a minor thing for an easier laid back kind of way

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of life.

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And this is where all delivery companies will stop

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delivering to me now.

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We won't tell them where you live.

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Thank you.

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But I mean, it is nice as well.

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And when I was in the process of buying this house,

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an old colleague approached me from Testlio about this

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role.

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And at that moment, I couldn't take it.

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But different role a few months later,

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because basically when you're buying a house,

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you need to be in a steady job because mortgages that get

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fussy.

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And I took a role instead that because I went through the

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interview process where I would be in charge of the network

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team,

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of training freelancers to do accessibility and that is my

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favourite bit about my job.

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It's training people that have no experience previously to

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be accessibility testers because I was answering a thread

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that Ronny Hendricks put on LinkedIn about this,

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that there aren't enough junior positions,

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there aren't enough people training people to be

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accessibility testers and I've been doing it before,

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it was like "cool"!

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I did it in a previous role since 2016 or 15.

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I've been training people that have a good functional

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testing skill set as freelancers and training them how to

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use tools like a user, how to understand users,

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how to do the testing in an effective way.

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:

It isn't always easy for the team because it is a very,

459

:

when it comes to accessibility,

460

:

it's not something that's easy to just pick up.

461

:

It takes time and it takes effort and not everyone has that

462

:

time or the ability to put that effort in or there's

463

:

something that just doesn't click.

464

:

I've noticed like if I get 50 people that I start training,

465

:

maybe 15 will stay on the team after that 50 and it sounds

466

:

a bit mean but it's like with everything some people,

467

:

it just doesn't take.

468

:

I love the fact that at Testlio, I'm allowed to do this,

469

:

it's one of my passions, sharing the joy of Accessibility,

470

:

helping people to be more accessible in their thinking.

471

:

In fact, I get some of my team messaging me going, oh,

472

:

I was using this website, it's not accessible,

473

:

let's go and talk to them and I'm like, calm down,

474

:

that's the sales job.

475

:

But I love that passion,

476

:

I love the fact that they're making me remember the basics

477

:

and I'm not forgetting

478

:

how to explain things.

479

:

I'm always training people.

480

:

It's never one time then you're done.

481

:

Training, I provide to people ever so often.

482

:

That's a starting point where they build on it,

483

:

hopefully touch wood.

484

:

And I'm always learning.

485

:

I've found, I do some volunteer work at the W3C and, oh no,

486

:

I'm an invited expert now.

487

:

It sounds nice saying that.

488

:

I'm an expert.

489

:

Yay.

490

:

But all that sort of stuff helps me realize that even as I

491

:

think I know enough, I don't know it all.

492

:

And I've got to keep learning and training.

493

:

The team helps me do that.

494

:

And I've also found,

495

:

I was also very lucky that despite this old colleague

496

:

reaching out,

497

:

they still wanted me despite me saying no first off.

498

:

And I passed all the interview process.

499

:

It wasn't just a "here,

500

:

have a job" because it always sounds like that when people

501

:

talk about things like this.

502

:

And also,

503

:

I'm lucky in the fact that Testlio cares about their

504

:

employees.

505

:

I'm part of a mental health Testlion resource group or TRG.

506

:

Yeah, Testlio, Testlion...

507

:

it's a play on the words.

508

:

But as part of that,

509

:

it's not just about trying to help people that have been

510

:

accessible,

511

:

like alternative descriptions of images in Slack.

512

:

I'm often reminding people how to do it.

513

:

But it's also helping people to be aware of their mental

514

:

health and to be kinder to themselves.

515

:

And it's nice as well because it helps me to remember that

516

:

too,

517

:

because that's the most important thing I think in our daily

518

:

lives, modern day lives,

519

:

is we often forget to take a moment to be kind to

520

:

ourselves.

521

:

Very poignant and I couldn't agree more.

522

:

I think it is very important.

523

:

I think a lot of people do hyper focus on being kind to

524

:

others.

525

:

But actually,

526

:

how can you do that if you're not being kind to yourself

527

:

first and foremost?

528

:

I think you need to look after oneself and your own mental

529

:

health before you can really assist other people.

530

:

So then you can put the right foot forward.

531

:

And that sounds incredible.

532

:

I love it when I hear that companies have employee resource

533

:

groups or the test line resource group sounds just a great

534

:

thing to have there.

535

:

And it does sound like they genuinely care about the people

536

:

that work there.

537

:

So it's fantastic and lovely to hear that journey.

538

:

And thank you for clarifying as well that people don't sort

539

:

of just go, here you go, have a job.

540

:

It would be lovely if it was that easy!

541

:

I know that's your role, isn't it? "If it was that easy,

542

:

I'd be out of a job!"

543

:

No, that's great.

544

:

Brilliant opportunity.

545

:

And yeah, I'm sure it's been a challenge, I suppose,

546

:

for want of a better word,

547

:

sort of just navigating that and having that new title as

548

:

well, and different responsibilities,

549

:

but just the same as moving companies anyway.

550

:

I think there's a new set of people,

551

:

new set of rules and how they do things.

552

:

So I'm sure all is going very well.

553

:

You've been there, how long have you been at Testlio now?

554

:

About a year and a half, I think.

555

:

Yeah, yes.

556

:

It will be two years in December.

557

:

Amazing.

558

:

So I have to admit with my,

559

:

I did move around a few jobs recently for various reasons.

560

:

I think I might have found a place I'm staying.

561

:

Sorry,

562

:

I know you might be wanting me to go for a role at Oracle

563

:

at some point, but I'm going to say thanks, but no thanks,

564

:

Joe.

565

:

Absolutely fine.

566

:

At least it's out there for everyone to hear.

567

:

That's great.

568

:

And that's actually the main passion as well,

569

:

as much as obviously it is a business and I do need to

570

:

place people into new roles.

571

:

I think hearing that is very fulfilling,

572

:

hearing people that are happy in their jobs.

573

:

And if it's something that I've been able to help with,

574

:

even better, but in general, just lovely to hear.

575

:

So I'm very pleased for you.

576

:

But excellent.

577

:

So bringing it back around to what Testlio do and sort of

578

:

what the business is built upon.

579

:

So a key focus is obviously the audit and testing and

580

:

assurance.

581

:

So could you give some insight on the different types so

582

:

that automated versus manual testing for accessibility and

583

:

how they either contribute to or they differ from when

584

:

someone would say an "audit"?

585

:

Well, I mean, to be honest,

586

:

the terms interchange so easily.

587

:

I was told in one company,

588

:

I couldn't say assessment because that meant something

589

:

else.

590

:

And I couldn't say audit in another company because it's

591

:

all testing against the guidelines.

592

:

I have to admit with Testlio,

593

:

we do a mixture of automation and manual testing.

594

:

We are using tools that are free for some of the automation

595

:

because they are doing things that why reinvent the wheel?

596

:

So things like test.

597

:

And also the contrast ratio calculator.

598

:

I think if you try to do that manually,

599

:

you'd end up with a headache to work.

600

:

easy to use someone who's done that behind the scenes so

601

:

I don't think accessibility ever is truly without

602

:

automation but as we have seen some companies say you can't

603

:

go 100% automation you can't just put a overlay on

604

:

it... Did I say that out loud?

605

:

I'll Edit that out, yeah haha.

606

:

But,

607

:

it won't make it accessible because it's like me putting a

608

:

lot of makeup on I'll still look the same regardless I'll

609

:

just have a bit of makeup on and it's a similar thing for

610

:

overlays or the automation only-answer it's a starting

611

:

point, it's not going to be the everything.

612

:

What you need to do is also include the manual,

613

:

the understanding of the users,

614

:

using the tools like a user would and I always think that's

615

:

a very important part that people don't often focus on so

616

:

much I know that I have been through a few different

617

:

companies,

618

:

and I've seen different styles of how people approach

619

:

testing, and they all have their merits in different ways.

620

:

But I honestly believe that trying to understand the user

621

:

and user tools like the users will catch more issues than

622

:

just looking at the code.

623

:

Yes, the code can be 'inaccessible',

624

:

but I've seen code that looks inaccessible,

625

:

but works really well with the different tools.

626

:

So why should I punish someone for getting something to

627

:

work with maybe something third party they've had to work

628

:

with?

629

:

And ideally, yes,

630

:

you'll start from scratch and you have simple stick to the

631

:

stats, like using HTML5.

632

:

But I'm not going to punish someone for divitis,

633

:

so long as the divitis doesn't cause any issues to people.

634

:

But yes, and I try to train that into my team.

635

:

If you get an automation result,

636

:

you do need to check it manually to make sure it affects

637

:

the user and how severe it's going to affect it.

638

:

If it's something like a button without a label,

639

:

sometimes you'll get automation flagging it,

640

:

but the tools don't,

641

:

because they've added the label in a way that the

642

:

automation tool is not looking for,

643

:

or they haven't been able to calculate.

644

:

So always check the results.

645

:

But they are a great starting point for learning as well,

646

:

because I often find sometimes the automation tools,

647

:

like the free web browser ones,

648

:

I'm not going to name them because we all know them.

649

:

But they're a good starting point.

650

:

But they're not going to tell you if something's accessible

651

:

or not.

652

:

I guess it just points you in the right direction,

653

:

doesn't it?

654

:

I think having that as an initial, you know,

655

:

rather than having to scroll through all of the acceptance

656

:

criteria manually, at least it might put you in the right.

657

:

sort of area the right section and then from there you can

658

:

use your know-how or or advise people on how they might

659

:

implement an amendment or a change and what you said as

660

:

well reminded me of something that Chris Patnoe at Google

661

:

said.

662

:

He was saying that we're going to make mistakes, you know,

663

:

you can't,

664

:

it's not always going to be perfect and actually the

665

:

mistakes are what help us make that change in moving

666

:

forward.

667

:

So not that you want to celebrate making a mistake but you

668

:

can, it's a tool, it's another tool in your belt, isn't it?

669

:

And yeah,

670

:

I think a lot of what you said about your approach with

671

:

something might seem inaccessible in the code, don't just,

672

:

again,

673

:

a lot of this podcast is going to be about assumptions,

674

:

so I think that might be a title!

675

:

You can't just assume that that's, you know,

676

:

it's a mistake that's been made, you know,

677

:

it all comes down to that testing and reassurance.

678

:

And also, guidance on how to resolve things.

679

:

I often find there's a lot of help out there on Google,

680

:

but finding something relevant to what you're looking at

681

:

can be interesting.

682

:

So that's something that Testlio, we often provide,

683

:

is not just it's broken, but this is how you fix it.

684

:

And they also get a bit of sarcasm thrown in if they're

685

:

really lucky.

686

:

That's an added bonus.

687

:

Love it!

688

:

I mean, I'm all for it.

689

:

So some might not be, but that's fine.

690

:

That's why it's an added bonus.

691

:

It can be removed if not wanted.

692

:

But yes, it is one of those things.

693

:

We're sharing the experience when we're trying to emulate

694

:

users.

695

:

And we also have exposure to real users that can give

696

:

feedback to.

697

:

And I often find a lot of people assume they don't need

698

:

accessibility testing on some products.

699

:

However, anything that's digital needs to be accessible.

700

:

If people can use it or access it, we need to make sure,

701

:

partly for me and my lack of coffee moments,

702

:

that it's accessible so that I don't get that confuddled

703

:

message or when I don't get a meeting invite and suddenly

704

:

get a reminder of like, oh, yes, Helen,

705

:

we're talking tomorrow.

706

:

I wonder who that was...

707

:

It's a moment.

708

:

It doesn't matter.

709

:

We all have them.

710

:

And I try not to judge people on their moments,

711

:

but try to judge on the learning from them.

712

:

Yeah, absolutely.

713

:

In other words, if you don't learn from it,

714

:

then that makes you the Egit, I said earlier.

715

:

Yeah, 100%.

716

:

And some people need reminding, which is fine as well.

717

:

But I think that it is, yeah, I think it's a key point,

718

:

isn't it?

719

:

That continuous learning,

720

:

no matter what title you're at or what stage you're at in

721

:

your career,

722

:

I think that we're never going to be 100% right 100% of the

723

:

time.

724

:

So I love that, you know,

725

:

you've mentioned your own learning throughout this whole

726

:

thing as well,

727

:

because I look at people in your position and think, God,

728

:

you know everything.

729

:

I want the winning lottery numbers, but I don't have them,

730

:

so I don't know everything.

731

:

There was another point, yes,

732

:

that's the other thing that I try to do as well,

733

:

is not just this fails the success criterion at normative

734

:

failure, but also best practices,

735

:

and then the clients can choose whether or not they adopt

736

:

the best practices,

737

:

because those are the ones where we know it will help a

738

:

user, but technically it doesn't fail.

739

:

Those are always the ones that frustrate a lot of us in the

740

:

industry.

741

:

Well, frustrates us idealists in the industry.

742

:

There you go, yeah.

743

:

And I guess with the sort of kind of touched on it as well

744

:

with the upcoming implementation or changes to the European

745

:

Accessibility Act or amendments to EN 301 549.

746

:

I know Craig Abbott loves that very accessible name.

747

:

I'm sure that you would have seen an uptick in outreach to

748

:

consultancies like like Testlio that you work at from

749

:

companies that have finally realised that they need to do

750

:

something about this.

751

:

Unfortunately,

752

:

it took regulation change maybe in some cases,

753

:

but I'm sure that that's keeping you very busy in the

754

:

upcoming months.

755

:

But prior to that, or even now,

756

:

who would it usually be within a company that would make

757

:

that sort of outreach to a company like yourselves to

758

:

support with accessibility testing?

759

:

Or is it usually,

760

:

because I'm assuming that there might be people that don't

761

:

have an accessibility title,

762

:

or is it usually an internal team that you rely on sort of

763

:

reaching out for that support?

764

:

I think I've had every role reaching out at different

765

:

times.

766

:

It can be someone in the UX department,

767

:

it can be a project manager, it can be someone in an accessibility team

768

:

I don't have a pattern that I can name that does it.

769

:

But what I can say is,

770

:

one of the joys that they have in reaching an agency like

771

:

Testlio is the fact that they're not buying a full time

772

:

resource,

773

:

they're buying the hours as and when they need them.

774

:

Which means,

775

:

because sometimes when it comes to accessibility,

776

:

a lot of people do the waterfall method where they only

777

:

have at the end of the project, for it's about to go live,

778

:

when they have the large number of bugs telling them

779

:

they've got to fix it at the end and, you know,

780

:

always everyone's favourite time.

781

:

Sometimes it's better to...

782

:

have it integrated in the design process and more agile

783

:

approach and I do prefer to be in an agile approach but

784

:

whatever people hire me for I'm gonna try and not sound too

785

:

much like I'm just up for sale but I'm happy to work with

786

:

what they can do.

787

:

Sometimes when it comes to the end of project audit you

788

:

might have to recommend solutions that are not ideal

789

:

solutions but can be worked on and added within the time

790

:

frame you're given so you adapt according to what they need

791

:

what time they're in their project.

792

:

Obviously I don't say something passes unless it actually

793

:

passes though because that's one of the things that people

794

:

think they might be able to get is if they throw enough

795

:

money at it can they get a passing rate it's like yeah go

796

:

somewhere else.

797

:

But what I love to do is a fascilitation of creating an

798

:

accessibility team within companies.

799

:

There's a few that I've worked with that now have a core

800

:

circle of people in design,

801

:

development and testing that have become the advocates just

802

:

from some of the interactions with me and some of the

803

:

training that I've done with them or the feedback I've

804

:

given.

805

:

And I love just seeing it evolving and growing.

806

:

I don't mind if they don't need me anymore.

807

:

I like the fact I facilitated someone else to be able to

808

:

take it on themselves.

809

:

It's not about relying on another person to do it all for

810

:

you.

811

:

It's using the tools to do it for yourself.

812

:

I'm sounding like a proud parent there, aren't I?

813

:

I love that analogy though.

814

:

I think that's great.

815

:

I think to become the proud parent within the accessibility

816

:

community would be what a fantastic achievement.

817

:

I think sharing that knowledge, I think that's,

818

:

is that or is that not the end goal?

819

:

The awareness is there that people are learning and

820

:

continuously learning in this space.

821

:

And then it will only make your job even easier for when

822

:

they do need you.

823

:

It's the edge cases where I often get brought in.

824

:

Yes, when there's a head scratcher and I'm always like, oh,

825

:

I haven't had enough coffee for this one.

826

:

But yes,

827

:

it does make my life more interesting because I have to

828

:

admit like when people talk about automation tools and the

829

:

low hanging fruit which is apparently a marketing term

830

:

people hate but it's true.

831

:

It's easier to grab that low hanging fruit.

832

:

You don't want to because the dogs are peed on it but it's

833

:

that sort of idea.

834

:

But it's making sure that the issues that we're finding in

835

:

our audits are the ones that are not easy to find with the

836

:

tools.

837

:

Amazing, yeah, definitely.

838

:

I mean, sorry,

839

:

you've thrown me for a loop there talking about dogs peeing

840

:

on fruit.

841

:

Oh, sorry.

842

:

I do get told it's always interesting chatting with me but

843

:

you're never quite sure what I will end up saying and I'm

844

:

pretty much the same.

845

:

That would be great for the listeners I think.

846

:

Fingers crossed, I keep doing that.

847

:

I never like to think for others remember.

848

:

But yeah I mean so you were mentioning it as well earlier

849

:

about the changes,

850

:

the upcoming changes to the European Accessibility Act and

851

:

you've moved to Ireland and I think you've mentioned

852

:

something here about what's happening in Ireland.

853

:

Yes so, o

854

:

ne of the punishments for not meeting the European Accessibility

855

:

Act in 2025 if you happen to be in Ireland with over 10

856

:

employees and trading one of the items that is affected.

857

:

Results in jail time,

858

:

if you're found to be breaking and someone said that to me

859

:

like, Oh, isn't that really bad?

860

:

I was like, Oh, no, you get three meals a day!

861

:

But no, that's called a tired mum response.

862

:

But it's interesting,

863

:

each country has their own laws for enforcing this.

864

:

And I do think it'll be an interesting blog if someone

865

:

could find out the different laws for each country.

866

:

Because if you trade in the whole of Europe,

867

:

would you then be prosecutable under all those different

868

:

laws?

869

:

If so, I don't know how exactly it's going to work.

870

:

But if you're trading in those countries,

871

:

it would be easier to make sure you're accessible than

872

:

trying to research which laws you want to have.

873

:

You know, because jail time, no matter the jokes,

874

:

is probably not a nice thing to do.

875

:

Well, no.

876

:

And then the reputational risk that comes with that,

877

:

not just for yourself,

878

:

but for the and then who's going to be the person that

879

:

that, you know, is prosecuted.

880

:

I hope it won't be Director of Accessibility, but....

881

:

This is when I get.

882

:

But obviously, you know,

883

:

what you're doing is purely in that space.

884

:

So we'd like to think that you'll be compliant.

885

:

I'm going to plead the fifth there!

886

:

I'm just I hope I'm not worrying you about moving to

887

:

Ireland.

888

:

But anyway, right.

889

:

Oh, no, no, no, no, I.

890

:

It is one of those with everything.

891

:

There's always a cause and effect.

892

:

But sometimes if I'm not sure of the right legal answer to

893

:

say, I've learned: Stay quiet, Helen,

894

:

No inappropriate jokes.

895

:

I need to learn that lesson!

896

:

But I think you've mentioned as well before about it.

897

:

It's good that there's something like that that could push

898

:

people towards wanting to be more accessible,

899

:

but the hope is obviously that people want to do that

900

:

without the threat of jail time,

901

:

or without the threat of any legal action or anything at

902

:

all.

903

:

Which I 100% agree with,

904

:

I think that that should be the case.

905

:

But unfortunately,

906

:

those motivations come from all sorts of areas, don't they?

907

:

There is that.

908

:

Although it can be used by someone who wants to be more

909

:

accessible, but the management haven't bought in.

910

:

So then you can use it as a motivator for the management.

911

:

Because I often get asked,

912

:

how do I get my managers or the top tier to buy into

913

:

accessibility?

914

:

I want to be more accessible,

915

:

but I'm not getting a budget for it.

916

:

And there's many different motivators, money, legal,

917

:

reputation, the greater good.

918

:

Everyone wants to do it for the greater good, I'm sure.

919

:

I don't think anyone is truly horrible or whatever.

920

:

But often hands are tied by money.

921

:

or hands are tied by legal, you know.

922

:

So finding the motivator, and if this will help motivate,

923

:

then that's a great thing.

924

:

Use a carrot, not the stick as much.

925

:

But yes,

926

:

it's very hard sometimes to know exactly what will get

927

:

management to buy in though.

928

:

So have all the tools to help.

929

:

All the carrots and all the sticks.

930

:

Yes.

931

:

And one, hopefully, will help.

932

:

And I think that that's, yeah.

933

:

I mean, it's a good time, I think,

934

:

to bring us on to final thoughts.

935

:

I've taken enough of your time,

936

:

and I know you're a very busy person,

937

:

so thank you so much again for joining.

938

:

But if there is anything of real importance to you at the

939

:

moment,

940

:

either in the accessibility world or within personal life

941

:

you'd like to share, then please do feel free.

942

:

For me,

943

:

one thing that I've really celebrated the last week is how

944

:

Canada has taken on the European standards in 301, 549.

945

:

And what has made me smile is the amount of people going,

946

:

yay, we now have an HTML version,

947

:

because the PDF of the European version is not accessible.

948

:

The irony is not lost.

949

:

I have to find when it comes to PDFs,

950

:

that's a whole other ballpark of,

951

:

we could do another podcast on that.

952

:

But yes,

953

:

it's nice that someone's created an HTML version of the

954

:

European standards.

955

:

I keep saying HTML5 because it's a coding standard.

956

:

So yay, Canada, not only with healthcare,

957

:

with the free healthcare, like with the NHS in England,

958

:

is also adapting the European standards.

959

:

So obviously, they prefer stuff in this area.

960

:

and I think it's another huge celebration in that,

961

:

could that lead to?

962

:

sort of standardization on the international sort of stage

963

:

for accessibility which I think surely would help with just

964

:

global markets or people that trade globally as well.

965

:

Otherwise if you're trying to implement slightly different

966

:

guidelines or standards from different countries it can

967

:

really create a big mess.

968

:

Yes,

969

:

given the fact that the standards take a long time to react

970

:

to any updates like I know when WCAG 2 was released

971

:

international standards took six years to incorporate it

972

:

into their legal items and it took Europe eight years to

973

:

adapt it into EN 301 549.

974

:

I think the best thing to do is focus on the WCAG.

975

:

or WCAG web content accessibility guidelines,

976

:

which when it comes to three,

977

:

will be just W3C accessibility guidelines because of

978

:

digital products.

979

:

Focus on those,

980

:

the latest version as a standard to adhere to because most

981

:

of the laws are based on a version of WCAG.

982

:

At the very least, that would be a great starting point.

983

:

Trying to understand the laws in each and every country.

984

:

And as they do something really fantastical,

985

:

I don't think you can go too far wrong there.

986

:

But understanding any extra items because with the European

987

:

standards, it's not just the digital assets.

988

:

It's things like making sure the hardware is in an

989

:

accessible position.

990

:

So like an ATM is able to be accessed by someone in a

991

:

wheelchair or will have rail for someone who can't see the

992

:

keypad.

993

:

So it's not just about digital assets.

994

:

It's also about physical and hardware, software,

995

:

documentation, help provided the human factor as well.

996

:

So, yes, it goes a step further.

997

:

And I've already getting that glazed look from you there,

998

:

Jo, so I know it's time to stop.

999

:

No, no, no, no, I was loving it.

:

00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:38,060

I was loving it.

:

00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:39,560

I was just taking it all in.

:

00:51:40,860 --> 00:51:41,540

Oh, that's good.

:

00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:42,940

Sorry.

:

00:51:43,420 --> 00:51:46,240

I always am aware, my husband warns me on it,

:

00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:49,000

that sometimes I get a bit passionate and the other person

:

00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:49,840

gets a bit lost.

:

00:51:50,620 --> 00:51:55,900

So I try to, I try to assume everyone's like my husband.

:

00:51:56,220 --> 00:51:57,380

That's not good.

:

00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:58,740

I've got to stop that.

:

00:52:00,060 --> 00:52:01,420

And it's not my blood sugar either.

:

00:52:01,900 --> 00:52:07,880

So, no, I think it is because it is quite,

:

00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:09,160

it's such a broad thing, isn't it?

:

00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:10,560

And I think that you were mentioning so many different

:

00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:10,740

things.

:

00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:11,880

I was trying to think,

:

00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,860

is there anything in particular there that I could?

:

00:52:13,860 --> 00:52:16,240

but then I've before, this is final thoughts.

:

00:52:16,420 --> 00:52:17,980

So I was like, actually, I shouldn't be throwing

:

00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:19,320

more questions at you either.

:

00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:26,960

Yes I think final thoughts for me this has been probably a

:

00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,460

very tricky conversation at times about the legal side

:

00:52:30,460 --> 00:52:36,720

because I'm not a lawyer but it has been a joy and love

:

00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:38,480

catching up with you Joe because you're brilliant.

:

00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,520

Oh thank you so much I know I've spoken about the impostor

:

00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,620

syndrome in the past so I won't bore everyone with that

:

00:52:44,620 --> 00:52:47,620

again but I really appreciate that thank you so much and

:

00:52:47,620 --> 00:52:51,900

again for all of your time and work in the space because

:

00:52:51,900 --> 00:52:56,880

it's not gone unnoticed and I think you know it's yeah

:

00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:58,140

fantastic what you're doing.

:

00:52:58,140 --> 00:53:01,080

So I hope to see more of you in the future,

:

00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:02,040

that we can collaborate,

:

00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,680

maybe see you in person at an event or something would be

:

00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,080

really really cool but yeah so thank you so much for your

:

00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:08,340

time.

:

00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:10,480

Thank you for having me!

:

00:53:11,660 --> 00:53:14,220

Thanks again to Helen I hope this discussion was helpful

:

00:53:14,220 --> 00:53:14,920

for you all.

:

00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,760

For more insightful discussions on digital accessibility

:

00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,560

please follow the links to our site where you can find

:

00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,860

previous episodes and subscribe to receive updates.

:

00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:26,980

Thanks again, see you next time!

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About the Podcast

The Digital Accessibility Podcast
Interviews with Digital Accessibility Leaders
In The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Accessibility Leaders are interviewed by Joe James about the importance of digital accessibility in business and society.

Joe is a Digital Accessibility Recruiter at PCR Digital with an inquisitive mind and a passion for the space.

Tune in for key insights, personal accounts, and takeaways about the importance of digital accessibility, told by experts.

Contact: joe.james@pcrdigital.com
PCR Digital: https://www.pcrdigital.com/

About your host

Profile picture for Joe James

Joe James

Hi! I'm Joe. I'm a Technical Recruitment Consultant who's worked in a huge variety of industries. Having worked to hire specialists for one of the world leaders in digital accessibility, my own passion for and interest in the field has grown.

My aim is to chat with thought leaders and advocates within the space to raise more awareness of the field in general and help to understand what we can all be doing to ensure all areas of the web/technology are accessible to everyone.