Episode 10

full
Published on:

26th Mar 2024

Heather Hepburn - Head of Accessibility @ Skyscanner

Heather Hepburn is the Head of Accessibility at Skyscanner. Here she chats with Joe about her journey within Accessibility, how to get an Accessibility program started within a large company, upcoming challenges in the space and how we can start to bridge the skills gap here in the UK.

Resource Links:

Heather's Social Media Links:

  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heatherhepburn/
  • Twitter: @heatherehepburn

Joe's Social Media Links:

Transcript
Speaker:

Welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast,

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sponsored by PCR Digital and hosted by me, Joe James.

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I'll be sharing my interviews with thought leaders,

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experts and advocates of digital accessibility from all

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areas of the space.

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If you're new here, we do have full transcript,

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closed captions and a video over on YouTube,

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so I hope that there's an accessible way for you to follow

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along with these chats and get involved with the

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discussion.

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The aim is to make the digital world more inclusive and

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accessible for everyone.

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So sit back, relax and I hope you enjoy the chat!

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Today I'm joined by Heather Hepburn,

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Head of Accessibility at SkyScanner.

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SkyScanner is a search aggregator and travel agency based

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in Edinburgh, Scotland.

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The site is available in over 30 languages and is used by

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over 100 million people every month.

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The company lets people research and book travel options

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for their trips, including flights, hotels and car hire.

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You can imagine the potential for huge amounts of barriers

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or accessibility issues that could be found within a site

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or app that huge.

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So that's why they have one of the best in the business, h

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eading up Accessibility with Heather.

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So welcome to the podcast, Heather.

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Thank you, that's a crazy introduction,

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but thank you very much.

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I'm really delighted and honoured to be here.

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Thank you and thank you for everything you're doing in the

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space as well.

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I've loved listening to the episodes so far.

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They've been great.

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Thank you.

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Oh, thank you, Heather.

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Just trying to do my bit, as you know.

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Can't say I've had as much of an impact in the space as

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yourself at all, but yeah, whatever I can do,

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I'll continue to.

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But that brings me onto question one,

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I guess we'll dive straight in.

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You really have done so much throughout your career within

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the space.

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For me it was quite difficult to just pinpoint one thing in

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particular for the intro.

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So obviously hence the title best in the business which you

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can now carry forward.

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So the first question is what would you say is one of your

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career highlights or biggest achievements?

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I do have to think back to just getting the whole

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accessibility programme off the ground.

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I mean, you know,

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five years ago it didn't exist and I think when I joined

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Skyscanner I was a UX writer.

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Nothing to do with accessibility at all and it was very

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early on actually that I realised "wait a minute Skyscanner

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are not really prioritising this" and I just really wanted

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to do something about it and luckily found some very like

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-minded people in the business as well and we

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got together and yeah we made it happen

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So I think that has to be,

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when I look back to that in those early days,

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it was difficult.

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I had to present to a million people why it was the right

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thing to do, why we should do it.

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I ended up just writing a job description and saying, look,

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we need to do this.

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I want to do it, can we?

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And yeah, eventually I was allowed to just get on with it,

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which has been it's been great.

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And since those early days,

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I think a lovely thing we've done is built up a really

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strong Champions Network.

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So, you know, it's obviously not just me.

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There's a whole team of champs doing their bit.

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And I've also now got a lead accessibility engineer who is

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amazing.

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So all of that technical stuff he can now look after,

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which really helps.

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I think in terms of progress,

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it's been so nice just getting the business to agree to

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things like joining the valuable 500.

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You know, that was a huge turning point, I think, as well,

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that we were publicly committing to disability,

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improving disability inclusion.

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You know, so that was a big moment as well.

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And really any time the company talks about it, you know,

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if they do a post on LinkedIn from Skyscanner about what

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we're doing in the space,

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and anything makes me feel great and makes me quite proud

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of what we've achieved so far.

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I suppose I still, yeah,

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I'm still blown away that anyone wants to talk to me and

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hear the story.

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It's quite, it still amazes me,

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but I love talking about it.

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So thank you again for having me.

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And another thing, sorry,

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I should also say the Champions of Accessibility Network,

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so the external network called CAN.

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Who you're a member of,

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we have amazing membership base of 1,300 people now.

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It's just crazy how this has grown.

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You know, that's been a huge achievement, I think.

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And just briefly,

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that started by Gareth Ford Williams and Charlie Turrell

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from both Ex-BBC.

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about, you know, how to set something like this up.

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But I heard them talking about it, I said,

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I want to be involved in that.

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So the three of us, plan it,

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run the monthly meetups and yeah,

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the membership base is growing.

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It's just all people like us, you know,

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involved in accessibility, interested in accessibility.

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And as you know, it's such a wonderful industry to be in.

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Everyone so nice.

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So it's yeah, that's been amazing.

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It is.

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It's just huge, a huge achievement as well.

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And it's so it is interesting.

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A lot of people don't tend to put sort of,

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I don't want to call it an extra curricular activity,

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like setting up a network of that huge.

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But it's outside of your day job, isn't it?

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It's an additional thing that you're doing your it's that

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extra commitment to the space.

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And it is, you've done an incredible job.

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It's very hard to maintain something like that and where

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it's growing so exponentially as well.

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It's definitely something to be proud of and I'm a very,

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very proud member of that community as well.

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Thank you.

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Do you know it's such an amazing group that it just shows

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the need for something like that.

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Because I think a lot of accessibility folks are out there

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on their own.

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They're, you know,

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they might be the only one in a business or they're on

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their own trying to get the business to think about

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accessibility, just like I was at the beginning.

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And we can talk to each other and we can share ideas and

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ask questions.

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I mean, the LinkedIn group we have,

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you'll see in there all the time and there's questions for

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the group, questions for the group.

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And the wonderful thing is they're just so happy to share

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information as well.

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There's no competition in that group.

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It's quite phenomenal.

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It is.

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And everywhere else in tech,

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because it's not just accessibility that I sort of work

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within, it's the general sort of tech spectrum.

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So it's the only space that I see that level of sharing,

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knowledge sharing in general, but just tips and advice.

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I think that it can be so competitive and dog-eat-dog

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elsewhere in tech.

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But in this, like you say,

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it must be that element of there's still so few people in

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the UK that actually do this as a profession.

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So who else are you going to ask other than your peers and

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competitors, I suppose?

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It's the wonderful thing about having an online network.

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So for people who don't know it,

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it's a group on LinkedIn and you can request to join.

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It's called the Champions of Accessibility Network or CAN.

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But our membership is from all over the world.

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It's amazing.

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So when we have our monthly meetups and we get people to

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put in the chat, you know, where they're from,

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it's everywhere.

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And it's just, it's astonishing that people, I mean,

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there's people in New Zealand joining,

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getting up at 4 or 5 am.

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Which just every time makes me feel it's just it's just

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another thing.

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Going global, it's great.

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Awesome.

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So to move on to the next, the next bit,

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which actually touches on that slightly as well.

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In a previous conversation with Bev Newing from the

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Ministry of Justice, we were talking about how the.

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the UK accessibility space is maturing,

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but with that maturity comes a lot of sort of top-heavy

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seniors and leads.

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So there are such things,

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there are things that just events and meetups and

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apprenticeships that we hope will nurture more junior or

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fresh talent in the space,

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but as someone that entered it as a UX writer, you know,

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when you joined Skyscanner,

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would you have any advice around how we can level out that

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playing field,

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just to make sure that we can maintain talent across the

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board?

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Yeah, I mean it is really still a problem isn't it,

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because it's often still often someone's side project,

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particularly designers and engineers.

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If the company doesn't have an accessibility team,

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it quite often ends up on there, you know.

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their passion project, which it really shouldn't be by now.

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It should be embedded.

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It should be part of a company's strategy to make whatever

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they do accessible.

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It's I mean,

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the ideal situation is to have a dedicated team for sure,

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of specialists.

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And if you have that,

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then you have your seniors leading the team.

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And then you have the room for the juniors to be hired and

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trained up.

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And, you know, they're the fantastic ones.

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We need them.

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But sometimes it's just really hard to to be to give them

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permission, I guess, to to expand a team.

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So what what we're trying to do is really improve the

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capability across the business.

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So we do, you know,

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a lot of training of our people in the product development

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process anyway.

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And we really try and, you know,

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bridge that knowledge gap and just get people

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understanding, you know,

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how to do accessibility within their discipline.

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But yeah, it's it is hard.

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It's it's hard when it's a growing area as well,

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because you're still you've still got those buy-in

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conversations to have.

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And, you know, people need a team,

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but then it's not always the case.

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And then teams, I mean, you know,

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look at Twitter's team and Spotify's team,

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they know they were huge.

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And then they get chopped or axed completely.

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I hope that's not.

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I mean, we could talk for a whole episode maybe about that.

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But I definitely think the, you know,

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the way things are going,

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team accessibility teams that are part of your your org are

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the way forward and will hopefully be becoming more common

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as we move forward.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And I think it is just that, I guess,

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nurturing of internal teams or the people that you

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have. That already have those sort of transferable skills

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as well within and it's identifying someone in your

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position that's like, well, actually,

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I've come from a UX background and that does tie in quite

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nicely into this sort of more niche area, I suppose,

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of focus.

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I mean, there's so many areas, isn't there,

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in accessibility?

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And I think a lot of accessibility professionals are

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expected to do absolutely everything because if you're

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only, you've only got one,

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then they have to cover quite a lot.

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And that will hopefully change because there's so many

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nuances.

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There's so many specialist skills, like I was mentioning,

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our lead accessibility engineer.

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He was an iOS engineer within Sky Scanner,

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who was just awesome at accessibility, really passionate,

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really wanted to learn, you know, was a really active,

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accessibility champion and was the obvious person to move

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into that role.

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But then there's loads of other people as well in different

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areas.

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There's a design specialist, specialism as well, that

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really needs.

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There's just so much to know in each area.

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Use a testing as well.

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That's another unique skilled area.

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Not everyone can do that, you know.

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So yeah,

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there's a lot of work to be done in getting people,

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giving people the opportunity to actually be those

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accessibility specialists in their disciplines,

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make them actual jobs.

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Yeah,

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I think there's definitely an education piece needed there,

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isn't there?

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Because I think at times people can think, well,

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I'm a tester, so I can test for accessibility, i.e.

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therefore I'm an accessibility specialist.

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But you know,

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it's not the be all end all there's not one single part of

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accessibility that you could say,

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if you focus on that one part,

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that means I'm a specialist in the entire thing.

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But then the assumption from the business side of things

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is: you're the accessibility person, so yeah,

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you have to do every single thing.

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And then it comes, unfortunately,

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burnout and that added pressure, isn't it?

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Yes, yeah.

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Right, well, I'll move on to something a bit more cheery,

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and I hope this won't embarrass you or the person it

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involves, but I won't name them.

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When we first met at the Champions of Accessibility Network

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Meetup in London,

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I brought along a couple of friends who work as

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accessibility consultants to introduce them to the wider

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network and sort of get them sort of face to face with a

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lot of people.

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And one of them turned to me and said, "oh,

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I actually feel a bit starstruck!

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That's Heather Hepburn from Skyscanner.

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She's a genuine accessibility superstar in the flesh." So I

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said, yeah, absolutely.

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And it's amazing that, again,

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I hope it doesn't embarrass you saying that,

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but I think there's so many inspirational people in this

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space and I don't think it's sort of, I don't think it's,

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I mean,

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you wouldn't usually walk up to someone in the street and

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go, oh, I admire you so much, you know.

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But I think it's really nice to hear that,

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that you are obviously doing great things and it's being

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noticed.

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So it is very rewarding working in accessibility.

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Such an important field of work.

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And I think that a lot of the people that have worked in

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this space for years and years all have key inspirations or

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people that they look up to and admire or could have been

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the sort of cornerstone for them to go,

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this is the reason I want to start going down this route.

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And I'd love to know if there's anyone like that for you.

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Oh, well, you have embarrassed me and I do remember.

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It was very lovely and very surprising.

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The whole, it's just,

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it's the most inspirational and rewarding industry to be

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in, isn't it?

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Everyone is super nice.

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Everyone is so open and passionate about what they're doing

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and share the same troubles as well.

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So I think that's what brings us all so close together and

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it's quite a small industry still.

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So everyone kind of,

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well not everyone knows each other but there's a lot of

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people who know one another and it's,

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I talk about my accessibility pals or you know if I'm going

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to a different city I can look them up and say do

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you wanna meet up? You

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know just get together, you can anyone

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in the industry just because you've got so much in common

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which is just where else has that?

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I don't know.

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In terms of inspirational people for me I have to mention

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the very first person who completely inspired me was Adi

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Latif.

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Do you know Adi?

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I do.

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I've only met briefly but yeah, lovely, lovely person.

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He is amazing.

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So in those very early months of me trying to get something

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off the ground at SkyScanner we got an email from Adi.

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Adi's blind.

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He's also a usability consultant and his email was so nice

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but it was basically saying we were so terrible but

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he's saying it in such a nice way because he's just so

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lovely.

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I can't really remember exactly what he said but he wasn't

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giving us a hard time but he was just pointing out the fact

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that we were a bit rubbish and he couldn't book a flight on

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SkyScanner and he wanted us to do something about it.

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Of course, totally fair enough comment.

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I spoke to him.

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I called him,

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we had a chat and then I went to meet him at a conference

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because he was hosting a round table and it was just the

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best thing.

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I made sure I was on his round table and then I introduced

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myself and then we could have a great chat face to face and

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he then and then showed me the problems with our app and we

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talked about how we could try and rectify that and yeah he

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is amazing.

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He's now a good friend.

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We realised we're both from Glasgow,

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so we've got a lot in common.

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And if Adi comes up to see his family,

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something's good to see him up here.

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So it's really nice.

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So definitely he was a very early source of inspiration.

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Then I think when I was trying to get the program off the

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ground, I spoke to, well,

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I reached out to a lot of people who were running

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accessibility programs in other companies and amazing who's

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willing to chat to you.

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And since then I've done it myself with anyone who wants to

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chat to me,

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because it's such an important time to just get some

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advice.

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So I remember speaking to, well,

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Gareth Ford Williams was one of them.

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He was still at the BBC at the time.

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Kevin White from the Scottish Government had a great chat

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with him.

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And there's a woman, Lisa from booking.com.

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She was amazing.

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It was just brilliant, brilliant conversations,

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so much good knowledge that people are just open to share.

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It was brilliant.

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So I would say they really helped me get things off the

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ground.

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But I do a funny thing is remembering the first CAN,

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steering committee meet-up.

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So before we just it was an idea and we were thinking,

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okay,

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what's the best way to get a network going for accessibility

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folks?

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And Gareth and Charlie were obviously there,

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but they had formed this little steering group and I was

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there.

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We were on the very first Zoom call of this group.

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And I remember turning my sound off and taking a sneaky

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screen shot.

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Because I was so overwhelmed at the people who were on the

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call.

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They were all my heroes.

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So there was Chris Patnoe, H

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ead of Accessibility from Google.

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Hector Minto, same for Microsoft.

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Jennison Asuncion from LinkedIn.

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Mark from AbilityNet, who's amazing.

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David Tisserand from Ubisoft, who's also fantastic.

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Who else was there.

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There was someone else, but it was just,

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I couldn't believe I was in the same meeting as all of

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these people who I'd been admiring for some time.

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And I just remember being the only one taking an action

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away from that.

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That meeting I was going to go and do some work on,

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creating a survey or whatever it was to send out potential

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members.

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And that was it from there on.

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It was, you know, we started forming the group,

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which was brilliant.

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But yeah, genuinely,

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everyone I speak to in this space is an inspiration.

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You know,

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everyone is so passionate. So caring and supportive.

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It's just fabulous.

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It really is such a, I think it's a hub for empaths,

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I think.

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I keep saying that it's a key,

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key part of working within accessibility.

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I think you have to genuinely care to work in this field.

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Because there are elements of burnout.

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There's that in every walk of life and every kind of career

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path.

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But I think especially within this,

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there's the added kind of pressure because you're genuinely

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potentially changing people's lives or making a positive

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difference

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to people's lives.

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And the flip side of that is making a negative impact and

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no one really wants their products to be doing that.

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But I think the humility that you show is just,

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it's amazing.

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And I'm sure that they all probably thought the same.

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Heather Hepburn from SkyScanner is on the

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call. Or Heather Hepburn who's she?

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Haha, oh it's amazing.

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No that's really cool.

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And it's just, yeah,

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when you find yourself in that situation, I mean,

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that was me as soon as I came and met you all at the CAN

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meet up in London.

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I was just surrounded by so many amazing people.

472

:

And you kind of have to pinch yourself sometimes,

473

:

don't you?

474

:

Yeah, totally.

475

:

It's part of the privilege of doing this podcast as well.

476

:

I'm quite surprised that so many amazing people are willing

477

:

to speak to me.

478

:

But cool.

479

:

So if we bring it back to the sort of general chat around,

480

:

if we can give any advice to people that are listening.

481

:

The key question is whose responsibility is accessibility

482

:

or who's responsible for it in general?

483

:

We're in a very highly technically led world.

484

:

So I feel that a lot of the time it does fall at the feet

485

:

of more technical people, developers, designers,

486

:

and that sort of thing to sort all of this out.

487

:

But do we have to agree that it all needs to shift left and

488

:

start at the design phase and put more responsibility

489

:

there?

490

:

Or is it even earlier than that within school and college

491

:

modules or university degrees?

492

:

Should there always be an element of accessibility taught?

493

:

I guess, yeah.

494

:

What do you feel would be a good resolution or something

495

:

that will get us to start putting the right foot forward

496

:

from now?

497

:

Yeah, I mean, well, from the business side, yes,

498

:

absolutely.

499

:

It's all about that shift left.

500

:

And it's a nice term that more and more people in our

501

:

industry are using now, which is great.

502

:

It's not just the job of a developer as I think it once

503

:

used to be.

504

:

It's everyone's responsibility.

505

:

Everybody has a part to play,

506

:

everyone in that product development process.

507

:

So that's product managers or product owners as well.

508

:

So they have to include it in their requirements.

509

:

They have to be expecting accessible design coming in and

510

:

they have to be giving their development teams time to

511

:

build in an accessible way and test.

512

:

There's a little bit of additional testing that you have to

513

:

do.

514

:

And yes, it does take a little bit extra time,

515

:

but nothing like the time it takes to retrofit fixes into

516

:

something.

517

:

We have a number of case studies that prove that point.

518

:

So that's good.

519

:

The shift left.

520

:

Yeah, so I mean,

521

:

starting at the requirement stage. Designers have to be

522

:

considering accessible needs of users, in our case,

523

:

travellers.

524

:

We have a really nice way now actually of marking up our

525

:

designs with accessibility annotations.

526

:

So when the designs are being handed over to the

527

:

development teams,

528

:

there's already been thought and those thoughts have been

529

:

documented and so the designers are marking up

530

:

accessibility copy or focus order or what heading levels

531

:

different bits of text are, leaving accessibility notes.

532

:

And even if it's not,

533

:

I've been trying to say this to them recently,

534

:

this doesn't have to be perfect, but what it is,

535

:

is it starts the conversation with the developers and then

536

:

you can work it out together.

537

:

I think that's been really key.

538

:

I think it's quite nerve-wracking sometimes for them to get

539

:

it absolutely perfect,

540

:

but it's really hard to get it perfect.

541

:

It's really hard.

542

:

So that's really important that they start doing that.

543

:

Developers also need to start building it in from the

544

:

beginning and they need some testing tools in there that

545

:

are just part of their process.

546

:

That's a big focus for us this year is to try and embed

547

:

accessibility into existing processes.

548

:

So I don't wanna come in and make people do new stuff,

549

:

just like, okay,

550

:

what tools are we using at the moment to test in? There's

551

:

accessibility bit that we can bolt onto that,

552

:

that will just give you, you know,

553

:

there and then while you're testing for other things,

554

:

covered accessibility as well.

555

:

We don't do enough user testing either with disabled users.

556

:

So we're trying to do that too early or trying to do that

557

:

as early as possible.

558

:

So again, we're not retrofitting fixes,

559

:

it's actually just part of the design and development flow.

560

:

So yeah, everyone's responsibility,

561

:

but if there's no one leading the accessibility program in

562

:

a business, it's very, very hard to make it work.

563

:

So I think there has to be one person responsible for the

564

:

program, not the work, but the actual, the leading of the,

565

:

you know, building the strategy,

566

:

getting the right people in place,

567

:

having some decent measurement there of how you're actually

568

:

getting on, organising training to happen.

569

:

They don't have to be the trainer,

570

:

they don't have to be the person that's actually doing the

571

:

work, but they have to own it.

572

:

So yeah, everyone's responsible,

573

:

but it's great to have someone actually leading the whole

574

:

program.

575

:

Otherwise, I think it can get quite difficult,

576

:

quite easy to forget about.

577

:

It's that and it can just dilute itself, can't it?

578

:

I think it's then just a drop in the ocean,

579

:

if it's one person that's trying to do something or for one

580

:

feature that they're working on and then the rest of it

581

:

just isn't accessible.

582

:

It's kind of like, I appreciate the effort,

583

:

but it's not really actually going to make any difference

584

:

whatsoever.

585

:

So I guess, yeah, you're...

586

:

I thought of, I instantly, just for some reason,

587

:

went town crier with a bell, like "hear ye, hear ye",

588

:

you've got someone in the middle of the office,

589

:

just like "remember accessibility everyone!",

590

:

but I think yeah.

591

:

Yeah, I think so.

592

:

No, it's really important to keep,

593

:

you have to keep going and you have to be having the right

594

:

conversations with the right people.

595

:

And that's not, that is an ongoing thing.

596

:

And it, yeah, it doesn't go away, it doesn't stop.

597

:

Something I noticed as well recently is the whole knowledge

598

:

gap actually being a real thing.

599

:

And you mentioned there in your question about, you know,

600

:

the education level,

601

:

where do we start talking about accessibility?

602

:

Now, accessibility is not,

603

:

it's hardly mentioned in university courses.

604

:

And it's something I've been looking into because if people

605

:

are coming in, you know, graduates are coming in,

606

:

we take a lot of engineering graduates,

607

:

half of our employees are engineers.

608

:

They're coming in,

609

:

they haven't been taught about accessibility,

610

:

they don't know what it is,

611

:

and they don't know how to code in an accessible way,

612

:

they don't know how to test, that's a real problem,

613

:

we have to then teach them.

614

:

And I just,

615

:

I've started speaking to actually a couple of universities,

616

:

and it's been really, really interesting as soon as,

617

:

as soon as I've approached them, well, we have,

618

:

we have links with Edinburgh University and St Andrews

619

:

University.

620

:

So I had links already,

621

:

so it was really easy to go to them and say, look,

622

:

accessibility is really important,

623

:

how do you talk about it?

624

:

Is it in your courses, your computer science degrees,

625

:

or your human computer interaction courses?

626

:

And the answer was always like, no,

627

:

but we're really interested in it,

628

:

can you tell us a bit more?

629

:

So I've been doing some work with the two universities,

630

:

and it's been fascinating actually, we've got,

631

:

the aim is to get accessibility embedded into their

632

:

curriculum.

633

:

So it's not really to create new courses or anything,

634

:

it's just like when you're talking about design or UX,

635

:

let's talk about inclusive design and how to,

636

:

how to make that work for disabled users.

637

:

When you're, if we talk about testing,

638

:

learning how to test,

639

:

include screen reader testing or keyboard only testing,

640

:

just include it!

641

:

So before we get to that point, there's been,

642

:

we do have to raise more awareness in those,

643

:

in those places.

644

:

So we have a lovely award that I'd just love to mention.

645

:

We have an award going with Edinburgh University,

646

:

it's called the Skyscanner Accessibility and Inclusion

647

:

Award,

648

:

and it's going to the final year student of this academic

649

:

year who, in their dissertation,

650

:

considers accessibility best.

651

:

So we are going to actually be part of the judging panel on

652

:

that, and we'll present the award hopefully at graduation,

653

:

which means I need to get what actually made, but we will,

654

:

we have an award, we have a monetary award as well,

655

:

and that's just great, you know,

656

:

it just gets people thinking about it.

657

:

I've done a lecture there as well on how to make what you

658

:

do accessible.

659

:

And the same with St Andrews,

660

:

we've done a lecture and we've done an online empathy lab

661

:

to their third year computer science students.

662

:

And that was really cool because they're doing a group

663

:

project at the moment.

664

:

So we've given them a bit of a twist of okay now the thing

665

:

you're making has to be accessible to a group of disabled

666

:

users and it's been fab.

667

:

So again we'll go to the we're going to the demos of those

668

:

when they present to their lecturers will go along as well

669

:

and try and ask some hard questions but that that's just

670

:

the start.

671

:

So it's got to be everything about accessibility.

672

:

There's no quick fix with it.

673

:

This is something I've really learned over the last couple

674

:

of years.

675

:

Everything takes time.

676

:

So I think we just have to okay what do we do to raise

677

:

awareness among the students and the staff?

678

:

I can't ask staff just to include stuff that they don't

679

:

necessarily know about you know, in their curriculum,

680

:

how do they mark it, how do they teach it?

681

:

So it's a bit of a process, but one that's really,

682

:

really fascinating.

683

:

So we're going to keep going and see how far we can get

684

:

with them.

685

:

Yeah, oh, it's amazing.

686

:

And what a great thing to put your name to as well for

687

:

SkyScanner and using that brand and that awareness to be

688

:

like, right, work towards this,

689

:

like a genuine award and who wouldn't want to have that

690

:

badge?

691

:

I think it's just brilliant.

692

:

It's so good.

693

:

And it's interesting.

694

:

I saw a post from Gigi,

695

:

who's an accessibility engineer with TPGi.

696

:

And she posted on LinkedIn saying,

697

:

something amazing happened in class the other day.

698

:

Our operations management professor spent 20 minutes of a

699

:

two hour class talking about accessibility.

700

:

And the reactions that she's had on this are just

701

:

phenomenal.

702

:

And it just shows that everyone's like, oh, my God,

703

:

I love it.

704

:

It's actually, you know,

705

:

people are talking about it in class.

706

:

Like, and yeah, to see more and more,

707

:

there's obviously the appetite for it.

708

:

There's so many people that want this to happen.

709

:

And yeah,

710

:

so thank you for your commitment to try and push that as

711

:

well.

712

:

It's crazy that it's not happening.

713

:

So I'm just trying to rectify something and then it's

714

:

starting in a small way.

715

:

But it's not.

716

:

It's such an important integral part of product design and

717

:

development.

718

:

Why is it not talked about?

719

:

Yeah.

720

:

So we can fix this.

721

:

Yes, we can.

722

:

And yeah, I'd love

723

:

to jump on board if there's anything you think that we

724

:

could ever do to help, then yeah,

725

:

we would do whatever we can.

726

:

But amazing.

727

:

And then that brings me onto the next sort of question

728

:

around,

729

:

I was probably jumping back to a question where we mentioned

730

:

how things are quite top heavy and trying to get more sort

731

:

of junior or mid-level resource, I suppose,

732

:

to help with accessibility.

733

:

It's the salaries that are on offer within the UK.

734

:

I think without having that high level buy-in and without

735

:

having the knowledge of the value of accessibility,

736

:

the salaries on offer can be quite mediocre.

737

:

They're not as enticing as purely just a software

738

:

development or a designer or UX writer, maybe.

739

:

It would be more appealing to apply for that job and then

740

:

maybe try and bring it in as part of your job.

741

:

I mean, obviously myself, I'm trying to rectify that.

742

:

The other thing around that is that a lot of people with

743

:

disabilities will use,

744

:

there are charities to support people with disabilities.

745

:

We've got amazing free healthcare in the UK,

746

:

which is phenomenal.

747

:

But then the misconception can sometimes be that because it

748

:

should be as standard, that should be free.

749

:

or a charity should be involved in doing that.

750

:

So why should other people pay for it?

751

:

It's like the moral obligation sort of side of things.

752

:

So how do you think we sort of get around all of that?

753

:

I know it's a big ask and lots of questions in there but

754

:

have you got any sort of pointers?

755

:

It just makes me think of the business case that I used to

756

:

kick off our programme and that I have I suppose developed

757

:

as well over the last few years strengthened it.

758

:

I mean the easy one for us was the moral reasons for this.

759

:

SkyScanner is a really inclusive organisation.

760

:

Our main value is we think traveller first.

761

:

So if that's our value we can't really argue.

762

:

So the moral reasons of not excluding anyone and being

763

:

inclusive were pretty straightforward for me but to get

764

:

across to SkyScanner anyway because they were yes of

765

:

course.

766

:

But the commercial reasons are huge and I think it's just a

767

:

case of explaining them properly to leaders leadership.

768

:

The fact that you hear the numbers a lot of like one in

769

:

five people have a disability.

770

:

It's one in four in some countries.

771

:

Many of those disabilities do affect how people use

772

:

technology,

773

:

how they use their phone or their computer and it's trying

774

:

to put I suppose I hate the question what's the ROI on

775

:

accessibility.

776

:

I hate it and I've still never really been able to answer

777

:

it properly in monetary terms but there are ways that you

778

:

can show okay if we've got 100 million users a month then

779

:

every month there's three million of them are going to be

780

:

using a screen reader.

781

:

Do we want to just close the door on them?

782

:

No that's three million people or you know nine million

783

:

people's dyslexia or there are ways to find those to bring

784

:

down into those numbers.

785

:

And I think that when it's when you bring it home to your

786

:

business, and you can relate it to your customer base,

787

:

it's a bit harder hitting.

788

:

And the amazing thing is there's so much rubbish out there

789

:

that when disabled people find a product that they can use,

790

:

they're going to stick with it,

791

:

they're going to be your salesperson in their community

792

:

saying, like, oh, I can, this works.

793

:

And this is really,

794

:

I can actually finish the journey on this or whatever it

795

:

is.

796

:

That, you know, it's, it's, it's important,

797

:

I think disabled people are particularly loyal as well,

798

:

you know, when they do find something that works.

799

:

So there's, there's those reasons,

800

:

there's the legal reasons as well.

801

:

I mean, it's, it's,

802

:

we talk a lot about carrots and sticks and the legal

803

:

reasons are very much the stick.

804

:

But I think, you know,

805

:

with the European Accessibility Act coming in next year,

806

:

that's a big stick.

807

:

I mean,

808

:

that's That's important and that can get a lot of companies

809

:

into a bit of bother if they're not doing this.

810

:

So I think these laws have been around in the States for a

811

:

lot longer and there's a lot of litigation goes on over

812

:

there.

813

:

How awful to be sued by someone, your risk,

814

:

the reputational risk is no one wants that.

815

:

You just need a program in place with the right things

816

:

happening.

817

:

It doesn't have to be perfect,

818

:

it's impossible to be perfectly accessible but you need to

819

:

be on the journey and doing the right things to be in a

820

:

good place for when that act comes in.

821

:

So that, I mean, if you are operating at all in the EU,

822

:

you fall into that act.

823

:

So that applies to us.

824

:

A lot of the partners we work with as well,

825

:

that applies too.

826

:

So we're going to be telling them about this if they don't

827

:

know about it already and we're going to see how we can

828

:

help them improve the accessibility of their products.

829

:

Because in SkySkiner you get so far with us and then we

830

:

link you out to an airline or an online travel agent to

831

:

actually book.

832

:

And a lot of those journeys aren't very accessible so we're

833

:

going to see what we can do there.

834

:

But that law is something that I really want to let them

835

:

know about because it's coming.

836

:

So there's lots of ways.

837

:

I think making it as relevant to your business as you can

838

:

is the best way to get the buy-in that you need.

839

:

And actually showing people really struggling using your

840

:

product is quite a straightforward one to do and it's quite

841

:

hard hitting.

842

:

If you're showing teams who've actually designed or built

843

:

this thing, actually not working for someone,

844

:

like really not working.

845

:

That can certainly get attention.

846

:

I think that's like you say it's the return on investment

847

:

as well.

848

:

I think unfortunately money is usually a lot of the time

849

:

the only thing that will talk.

850

:

So in terms of getting people to think, well,

851

:

why isn't it just done?

852

:

Why isn't it just free?

853

:

Why do we need to pay someone to do that?

854

:

It's making them realise this really is a specialist area.

855

:

It's not just something that you know,

856

:

it's easy to implement.

857

:

There's so much to it.

858

:

And like you're saying there,

859

:

there's there's so many different avenues you could go down

860

:

when you're trying to gain that buy-in.

861

:

And with the the EAA or the European Accessibility Laws

862

:

that are coming in next year,

863

:

I feel like it's not even those that are operating in

864

:

Europe that need to be aware and prepare for it because

865

:

their competitors will be operating in Europe.

866

:

And if they are now accessible,

867

:

just because they fall under this European Act,

868

:

then you're already losing out to your competitors.

869

:

So why not follow suit and do the right thing first and

870

:

foremost, but even from a business perspective,

871

:

it makes sense for anyone to follow along those guidelines.

872

:

It absolutely does.

873

:

I mean,

874

:

and all the stuff we were talking about earlier about that

875

:

shift left, that can save so much money.

876

:

If you actually do it properly and embed it into your

877

:

processes from the start,

878

:

the difference is huge in terms of time and money spent on

879

:

making something accessible.

880

:

So it all goes hand in hand, doesn't it?

881

:

But you need people in place who know what they're doing to

882

:

actually get it up and running properly.

883

:

Yeah, I think it's demonstrating the results as well,

884

:

isn't it?

885

:

I think as much as we do a lot of the user research in

886

:

terms of trying to find the mistakes that have been made or

887

:

trying to find those barriers,

888

:

I think it's just as important to actually sometimes,

889

:

and it sounds bad, but sing your own praises and be like,

890

:

look what we've done so well.

891

:

Or look,

892

:

it's sometimes hard to measure the impact of the actual

893

:

overall impact.

894

:

But I think to celebrate those wins is just as important to

895

:

sort of try and convince people they're needed.

896

:

I think it's we're seeing a lot more,

897

:

I think with like Apple,

898

:

they've done their sort of advertisement for the voice app

899

:

that they've now got, where it will replicate your voice.

900

:

So for those, and I just find it astonishing,

901

:

it's another thing that I wouldn't have thought of as being

902

:

a regular thing, a regular barrier that,

903

:

but even if that's something that's temporary,

904

:

it's great to be able to have your voice still there.

905

:

I think doing these podcasts, because I speak so much,

906

:

sometimes maybe I think I should programme an app to do for

907

:

me.

908

:

And it is true that accessible design is better for

909

:

everyone.

910

:

It really is.

911

:

I mean,

912

:

we've had a few examples where we're trying to make something

913

:

work for different users and disabled users and actually

914

:

it's changed the design, the general design for the better.

915

:

You know it's either simplified something or it's made us

916

:

explain something a bit better,

917

:

a bit more clearly and that has a huge impact.

918

:

So I think it really is true.

919

:

I think there was a misconception that you know an

920

:

accessible website would be really boring and really you

921

:

know not have any creativity in it at all but it's the

922

:

opposite.

923

:

It's absolutely the opposite.

924

:

We're just a bit more careful with colour combinations and

925

:

other words you know controlled with our layout.

926

:

Which again is better for everyone because even someone,

927

:

I know we both wear glasses,

928

:

but even for me I just think why would you put grey on

929

:

white background?

930

:

I just don't, I can't, it's not good for anyone.

931

:

Like for me I'm just like I'd rather be able to actually

932

:

read what you're trying to sell me.

933

:

Exactly and then if it doesn't work when you're trying to

934

:

increase the size of the text,

935

:

I do this on my phone all the time when I don't have my

936

:

glasses on and like no, move on, can't read it.

937

:

Yeah, exactly.

938

:

But amazing.

939

:

So with yourself, Heather,

940

:

and for this episode I wanted to try something different

941

:

and this could go terribly wrong but it's fine because I

942

:

could always edit it out if it's, I'm joking.

943

:

I thought it'd be nice if you could ask me a question.

944

:

So as much as you are the expert, absolutely,

945

:

I'm saying I'm an expert in any way,

946

:

shape or form when it comes to accessibility,

947

:

but on the recruitment side or staff attraction and

948

:

retention,

949

:

I'm hoping that this is a platform where I can actually

950

:

share some knowledge to people that are listening as well.

951

:

So if you've got any questions that you'd like me to try

952

:

and answer then, be kind, but fire away.

953

:

Well, yeah, actually can I,

954

:

I'm allowed to ask you two questions.

955

:

Yeah, of course, yeah.

956

:

Okay.

957

:

So that, well,

958

:

this is something that I've been thinking about a bit

959

:

because we have a,

960

:

we use a digital accessibility maturity model to kind of

961

:

track our progress with the maturity of the program.

962

:

And it also gives a lovely guide as to things you should be

963

:

doing to progress through the levels of maturity.

964

:

I like it,

965

:

it informs direction for some of the stuff we do,

966

:

which is really nice.

967

:

And one of the things that we're not doing very well is

968

:

including accessibility requirements or asking for

969

:

accessibility skills or knowledge or experience in our job

970

:

descriptions.

971

:

And I wondered if that can be maybe because it can be off

972

:

-putting for some people if they don't have that particular

973

:

experience or knowledge it might put people off applying

974

:

but actually it's a really important you know we would love

975

:

to find more people with those skills.

976

:

How do we get around that?

977

:

The easy and ego-inflating answer for me would be to work

978

:

with someone like me.

979

:

I trapped you!

980

:

No I'm joking.

981

:

So when it comes to job specs I think it really can be and

982

:

there's some statistics around this I'm not going to get

983

:

them 100% accurate but something like 75% of female

984

:

applicants won't apply for a job if they don't hit every

985

:

single requirement that they read on a job spec.

986

:

75% is huge so you've just really really minimised your

987

:

potential reach for great talent.

988

:

It's slightly less in men maybe.

989

:

We have bigger egos and think we'll slip through.

990

:

But I think it's about 50 percent still.

991

:

So it's still a huge,

992

:

huge margin of people that may see something and they

993

:

think, well, they're never going to look at me,

994

:

so I'm not going to apply.

995

:

What I would suggest is, in a way, changing the wording,

996

:

what your requirements are for the role,

997

:

rather than putting it as a bullet point requirement as we

998

:

see in so many job specs,

999

:

I would put it in the description of what you're trying to

:

00:44:36,340 --> 00:44:36,720

achieve.

:

00:44:37,180 --> 00:44:42,440

"When we are developing any of our new features or

:

00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:42,820

platforms,

:

00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,500

we always want to keep all of our users in mind",

:

00:44:45,580 --> 00:44:49,760

and it's using that wording and making sure that it's not

:

00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,300

biased in the regular way towards a normal,

:

00:44:55,020 --> 00:44:59,580

just as quick as possible, minimum viable products.

:

00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:00,640

We want to just get it done.

:

00:45:01,740 --> 00:45:04,320

I would probably look at the wording,

:

00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,860

the copywriting of the job spec and just say, "our

:

00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,640

commitment at Sky Scanner is to ensure that everyone's

:

00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,320

included". "We're looking to speak with people that have

:

00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,460

thought outside of the box and not just followed ingested

:

00:45:17,460 --> 00:45:17,980

frameworks."

:

00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:20,960

If you're using semantic HTML and things like that.

:

00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,280

I think those sorts of things,

:

00:45:22,460 --> 00:45:25,960

I'm thinking purely from development job specs because

:

00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,000

that's usually my niche,

:

00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,640

but that's what I would start with, at least.

:

00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,820

Hopefully that will attract people that are like-minded and

:

00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:39,180

already thinking that they might not have it on their CV,

:

00:45:39,460 --> 00:45:40,300

but that's another thing,

:

00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,160

another discussion to have with internal recruitment teams

:

00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,400

or the recruitment companies that you decide to partner

:

00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:47,840

with to help find these people.

:

00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:54,860

Can you not exclude anyone that doesn't have accessibility

:

00:45:54,860 --> 00:45:58,640

on their CVs, but as a pre-screening question,

:

00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,260

before you put them in front of me,

:

00:46:00,260 --> 00:46:02,120

we just want to know if they know anything about

:

00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,620

accessibility and that's always something I would put just

:

00:46:05,620 --> 00:46:06,040

so it's...

:

00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,880

it's an additional, it's another string to their bow.

:

00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:11,940

And without, you know,

:

00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,320

that way you don't make it a 100% requirement,

:

00:46:15,660 --> 00:46:18,460

but you're in the know before they even get to interview

:

00:46:18,460 --> 00:46:22,020

stage that you can start to just plant that seed and have

:

00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:22,640

that conversation.

:

00:46:23,260 --> 00:46:23,660

Nice.

:

00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,940

I guess I guess you could also include it in the interview

:

00:46:27,940 --> 00:46:31,000

stage if it was too hard to get it into the job description

:

00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:31,440

itself.

:

00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:32,200

But I do like that.

:

00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:32,320

Yeah.

:

00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:34,320

Talking about it, not as a requirement,

:

00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,180

but something that we do so that people who do have those

:

00:46:38,180 --> 00:46:39,200

skills will talk about them.

:

00:46:39,460 --> 00:46:39,920

But yeah,

:

00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,600

we could we could ask if people are doing a coding

:

00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:43,120

exercise,

:

00:46:43,660 --> 00:46:46,020

we could ask the question one just one question about,

:

00:46:46,140 --> 00:46:46,460

okay, well,

:

00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:50,180

how do you make that accessible or is that accessible talk

:

00:46:50,180 --> 00:46:51,380

to talk to us about it.

:

00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:52,640

Yeah, definitely.

:

00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,200

And even if it's just one element, you know, it could be.

:

00:46:56,020 --> 00:47:01,180

Could you magnify this text and does it stay within the

:

00:47:01,180 --> 00:47:01,460

parameters?

:

00:47:01,860 --> 00:47:03,760

Or can you make sure that it's responsive for different

:

00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:04,500

screen sizes?

:

00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,380

Or could you just tab through this if you didn't have use

:

00:47:07,380 --> 00:47:07,840

of a mouse?

:

00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,680

It's actually just the thought process rather than the

:

00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,240

sometimes the practicality or the actual technical side.

:

00:47:15,420 --> 00:47:15,600

It's like,

:

00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,060

I hadn't even thought of just tabbing through because I

:

00:47:18,060 --> 00:47:20,040

always use a mouse or a trackpad.

:

00:47:20,340 --> 00:47:20,580

So yeah.

:

00:47:21,700 --> 00:47:22,140

Nice.

:

00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,000

I might talk to you more about that.

:

00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:26,580

Thank you.

:

00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:27,440

And my other question.

:

00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:29,220

Well, we were,

:

00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,140

you know about this because we were we chatted about it,

:

00:47:32,140 --> 00:47:35,020

but we we were trying to hire a visually impaired software

:

00:47:35,020 --> 00:47:37,000

engineer last year.

:

00:47:37,340 --> 00:47:40,160

And we did we did find some candidates,

:

00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:41,720

but we didn't manage to fill the role.

:

00:47:42,380 --> 00:47:43,720

We've taken it down for now,

:

00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:45,900

but we are going to re-launch it,

:

00:47:45,900 --> 00:47:47,020

which I'm very excited about.

:

00:47:47,820 --> 00:47:51,220

It was it was it was challenging, you know,

:

00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:52,640

to find to find people.

:

00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,540

So what would you have tips for finding the right person

:

00:47:55,540 --> 00:47:59,560

and how we make that recruitment process as inclusive as

:

00:47:59,560 --> 00:47:59,920

possible?

:

00:48:01,100 --> 00:48:05,760

I think it is a it's a task in and of itself.

:

00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:10,140

I think that I've done a lot of work on making sure that

:

00:48:10,140 --> 00:48:14,120

the job boards that I post my jobs on are accessible so

:

00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,560

that I am still reaching the market of people that may have

:

00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,060

visual impairments or any other form of potential

:

00:48:20,060 --> 00:48:21,500

disability or impairment,

:

00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,540

then they are able to get through to that stage where

:

00:48:24,540 --> 00:48:25,320

they've sent the CV.

:

00:48:26,020 --> 00:48:28,000

They can let me know if they if they want to disclose,

:

00:48:28,180 --> 00:48:28,820

they don't have to,

:

00:48:28,820 --> 00:48:32,020

any sort of additional requirements they might have.

:

00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:34,140

But then.

:

00:48:35,060 --> 00:48:36,500

I think, yeah,

:

00:48:36,540 --> 00:48:39,180

it's just you're naturally already going to exclude people

:

00:48:39,180 --> 00:48:41,100

if you're just posting them out and you don't have an

:

00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:41,840

accessible website.

:

00:48:42,180 --> 00:48:42,780

If you don't,

:

00:48:42,780 --> 00:48:45,800

you're not using a job board where people with disabilities

:

00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:46,660

would use.

:

00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,240

There is one example, Evenbreak,

:

00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,880

and I would love to speak more about about them in a future

:

00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,040

episode or down the line, but they are

:

00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,980

a job board built by people with disabilities for people

:

00:48:58,980 --> 00:49:00,480

with disabilities looking for work.

:

00:49:00,660 --> 00:49:07,060

And it's not just one area of work,

:

00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:09,260

it's not just working in accessibility either,

:

00:49:09,460 --> 00:49:13,360

it's just that these are companies that are committed to a

:

00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,900

fully inclusive process when it comes to employment and

:

00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:19,120

they consider your anyone's needs.

:

00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,940

And I just think that's a great thing to have that kind of

:

00:49:22,940 --> 00:49:23,300

platform.

:

00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,040

I think we've always,

:

00:49:27,860 --> 00:49:30,100

so we're in a very unique position as a recruitment

:

00:49:30,100 --> 00:49:32,860

consultancy that work specifically in digital

:

00:49:32,860 --> 00:49:33,340

accessibility.

:

00:49:34,340 --> 00:49:37,780

It was something that came up with for my boss,

:

00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,180

the director of PCR, through one of our clients,

:

00:49:42,260 --> 00:49:44,040

nearly said who then but we're not allowed to say who they

:

00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:44,200

are.

:

00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:46,840

And they just asked for these requirements.

:

00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:48,100

And at that stage,

:

00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:50,340

we didn't really know how to attract those people.

:

00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:55,880

We initially set up the Accessibility, London

:

00:49:56,300 --> 00:49:59,660

Accessibility Meetup group, which has now changed hands.

:

00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,740

However, we had to think outside the box.

:

00:50:03,860 --> 00:50:06,460

We had to meet people in person and invite them in and

:

00:50:06,460 --> 00:50:07,560

attract them in that way,

:

00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,320

rather than just put a job up and expect them to apply.

:

00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,200

We had to ask for recommendations, go out to the network,

:

00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:16,400

which you've got an amazing one.

:

00:50:16,660 --> 00:50:21,360

So it's: "Do you have any recommendations?" But I think

:

00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:22,160

first and foremost,

:

00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:26,580

is making sure that that application process is as

:

00:50:26,580 --> 00:50:27,600

accessible as possible.

:

00:50:28,180 --> 00:50:30,620

And having that voice and wording it in the right way and

:

00:50:30,620 --> 00:50:33,040

making sure that you get the right kind of people applying

:

00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:33,620

for the job.

:

00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,180

And I will always say, obviously,

:

00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,720

partnering with someone that's working in the space will

:

00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:42,040

help, because I can cut a lot of the noise out.

:

00:50:42,140 --> 00:50:43,820

So if it's an internal recruitment team,

:

00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,800

you are going to get every applicant that you can think of.

:

00:50:49,580 --> 00:50:53,380

And if one of the key things you need is someone that has

:

00:50:53,380 --> 00:50:55,060

experienced or lived experience,

:

00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,480

or has some form of visual impairment,

:

00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:03,040

a lot of people can automate their job applications process

:

00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:03,580

as well,

:

00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:06,760

because there's not a nice position to be in looking for a

:

00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:06,940

job.

:

00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:08,620

So "I'll chance my luck.

:

00:51:08,820 --> 00:51:14,400

I'll send it out to every job posting that mentions these

:

00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:15,220

technical skills,

:

00:51:15,380 --> 00:51:18,140

but I might not have the other requirements or soft

:

00:51:18,140 --> 00:51:18,440

skills".

:

00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,600

So yeah, I think it does help to minimize the noise of,

:

00:51:25,060 --> 00:51:26,220

not I don't want to say irrelevant,

:

00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,400

but people that aren't quite what you're looking for.

:

00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,020

But it's a lengthy process.

:

00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,380

We could get a lot of applicants without a visual

:

00:51:34,380 --> 00:51:34,700

impairment.

:

00:51:35,580 --> 00:51:37,580

And it was a really clearly stated as well.

:

00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,760

It was a question in the form as well, the initial form.

:

00:51:41,260 --> 00:51:41,800

Yeah.

:

00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:43,720

Yeah, I hear you.

:

00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:44,460

I think that's good advice.

:

00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,000

And yeah,

:

00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,920

we'll definitely talk to you before we launch it again.

:

00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:52,360

That'd be great.

:

00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:53,960

I mean, yeah, and it is,

:

00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:57,320

I think I'm very fortunate to know people with those skills

:

00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:02,360

that do have lived experience or any form of impairment.

:

00:52:03,220 --> 00:52:06,240

And a lot of the time people won't disclose that as well,

:

00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:08,260

so that makes the search even harder,

:

00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,500

because if you're going to do a head hunt for people with

:

00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:13,100

disabilities or, for this example,

:

00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:14,720

a visually impaired developer,

:

00:52:15,260 --> 00:52:17,000

there are people that may be visually impaired,

:

00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:20,900

but wouldn't put that on LinkedIn or on their CV because

:

00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:24,700

they don't need to, but also, unfortunately,

:

00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:26,340

some companies will think, well,

:

00:52:27,820 --> 00:52:30,420

how are they going to look at the design of what they've

:

00:52:30,420 --> 00:52:30,760

created?

:

00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:37,140

You know, it's difficult for people in that position,

:

00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,700

so I think it's just being sensitive to it all as well,

:

00:52:41,900 --> 00:52:45,520

because it's quite easy to write off people if they haven't

:

00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,120

put quite clearly on their CV, oh I'm blind,

:

00:52:48,460 --> 00:52:50,580

but I develop code then

:

00:52:51,140 --> 00:52:52,840

we're doing everyone a disservice as well.

:

00:52:52,980 --> 00:52:54,920

So again, it's just a lengthy, lengthy process.

:

00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,660

I think it just takes a lot of time and trust,

:

00:52:58,880 --> 00:52:59,880

I think as well.

:

00:53:00,260 --> 00:53:01,440

Yes, I agree.

:

00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:03,300

Thank you.

:

00:53:03,940 --> 00:53:04,060

Great.

:

00:53:04,540 --> 00:53:05,520

No problem, thanks for the questions.

:

00:53:05,780 --> 00:53:06,160

They were really good.

:

00:53:06,260 --> 00:53:07,520

They were quite challenging, but hopefully,

:

00:53:07,740 --> 00:53:10,220

hopefully that helps.

:

00:53:11,060 --> 00:53:14,080

But that does unfortunately bring me to final thoughts.

:

00:53:14,580 --> 00:53:16,200

I don't want to take any more of your time up.

:

00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,220

I know it's a working day and you've got plenty to get back

:

00:53:18,220 --> 00:53:18,440

to.

:

00:53:18,860 --> 00:53:22,200

But I'd just like to give you the opportunity to let

:

00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,920

everyone know anything of real importance to you at the

:

00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:25,160

moment,

:

00:53:25,220 --> 00:53:28,920

either within accessibility or just in your personal life.

:

00:53:29,780 --> 00:53:30,940

Thank you.

:

00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,160

There's loads of things.

:

00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:35,800

Front of mind,

:

00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:40,200

if we're speaking to an audience who isn't maybe thinking

:

00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:44,920

about accessibility yet or doesn't have programs in place,

:

00:53:45,620 --> 00:53:48,320

I think my message really is just to do it now.

:

00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,880

Something I've learned and something I've realised recently

:

00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:57,600

is it just takes so long to actually make proper progress.

:

00:53:58,620 --> 00:54:01,900

So this program that Skyscanner has been running for four

:

00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:05,520

years and I'm really proud of where we've got to,

:

00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:08,360

but we're not done, we're not nearly done.

:

00:54:09,020 --> 00:54:10,020

We'll never be done.

:

00:54:10,180 --> 00:54:12,180

I mean, it's always, it's an ongoing thing,

:

00:54:13,220 --> 00:54:16,620

but to get to where we are has taken so long and there's so

:

00:54:16,620 --> 00:54:20,120

much more we can do to get to that really great place.

:

00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:23,200

So it's not a quick fix.

:

00:54:24,060 --> 00:54:26,820

And I think particularly with this law coming in next year,

:

00:54:27,180 --> 00:54:31,600

people might find themselves having a last minute panic

:

00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,860

about it and it's gonna be challenging to do anything

:

00:54:34,860 --> 00:54:40,200

constructive in a few months, even a year really.

:

00:54:41,580 --> 00:54:43,800

So I would just want to, I mean,

:

00:54:43,860 --> 00:54:45,540

this is that I think it's front of mind because we're going

:

00:54:45,540 --> 00:54:48,820

to be going to our partners very soon to be saying this.

:

00:54:48,940 --> 00:54:50,560

I hope a lot of them already know about it.

:

00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,140

but we're going to be giving them the message as well and

:

00:54:53,140 --> 00:54:54,900

offering our support and our help.

:

00:54:55,060 --> 00:54:56,120

You know, how can we help you?

:

00:54:56,940 --> 00:55:02,800

But I think if everyone is aware of that and aware of the

:

00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,100

work that is actually involved in, you know,

:

00:55:06,220 --> 00:55:09,100

you can have a push, you can push to fix some bugs.

:

00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:15,700

And then the next thing is launched two weeks later and it

:

00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:16,580

breaks everything again.

:

00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,340

So you have to have processes in place,

:

00:55:20,500 --> 00:55:22,300

you have to have capability in your teams,

:

00:55:23,300 --> 00:55:25,400

you have to have a bit of a strategy going on.

:

00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:26,660

So yeah,

:

00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:29,600

it would just be a little bit of advice just to get going

:

00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:31,220

now because it takes ages.

:

00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:33,880

Yeah, I completely agree.

:

00:55:34,740 --> 00:55:37,060

And yeah, just on that point,

:

00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,100

I think it is just so important that you've got that solid

:

00:55:40,100 --> 00:55:42,240

internal communication between teams as well,

:

00:55:42,260 --> 00:55:44,660

because you might be working towards a fix for something.

:

00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,040

But if there's no communication to say, well, actually,

:

00:55:48,100 --> 00:55:48,760

this is coming in.

:

00:55:48,820 --> 00:55:50,160

It's going to just overlay everything,

:

00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:51,800

oh that's a dirty word actually, isn't it?

:

00:55:51,860 --> 00:55:52,140

Overlay...

:

00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:58,400

But if it's going to just sort of impact on what you've

:

00:55:58,400 --> 00:55:59,260

been working for,

:

00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,960

then it can feel like a real waste of time,

:

00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:02,740

effort and money.

:

00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:04,580

But yeah, no, brilliant.

:

00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:05,780

Thank you so much, Heather.

:

00:56:06,220 --> 00:56:08,120

And yeah, it brings me to the end of the podcast.

:

00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:10,400

I always love talking to you.

:

00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:11,660

I always learn so much.

:

00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,000

So I'm really appreciative of you taking the time.

:

00:56:15,700 --> 00:56:19,980

And I'm sure that everyone that listens will be equally as

:

00:56:19,980 --> 00:56:21,180

appreciative.

:

00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,020

So thank you for everything that you've told us today and

:

00:56:25,020 --> 00:56:27,140

for all the work that you're doing with Skyscanner and

:

00:56:27,140 --> 00:56:28,160

beyond that.

:

00:56:28,820 --> 00:56:31,800

I'm looking forward to collaborating with you more,

:

00:56:32,140 --> 00:56:34,120

moving forward at meetups,

:

00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,720

hopefully some events and things in the near future.

:

00:56:38,500 --> 00:56:39,760

But yeah, as always,

:

00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:44,960

I'll share any links to any sources or any links to your

:

00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,700

social media as well so people can get in touch directly.

:

00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:52,220

But yeah, really appreciate your time.

:

00:56:52,780 --> 00:56:53,700

Well, thank you so much, Joe.

:

00:56:53,780 --> 00:56:55,300

I really enjoyed talking to you.

:

00:56:55,940 --> 00:56:56,940

And let's chat again soon.

:

00:56:57,140 --> 00:56:57,460

Thank you.

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About the Podcast

The Digital Accessibility Podcast
Interviews with Digital Accessibility Leaders
In The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Accessibility Leaders are interviewed by Joe James about the importance of digital accessibility in business and society.

Joe is a Digital Accessibility Recruiter at PCR Digital with an inquisitive mind and a passion for the space.

Tune in for key insights, personal accounts, and takeaways about the importance of digital accessibility, told by experts.

Contact: joe.james@pcrdigital.com
PCR Digital: https://www.pcrdigital.com/

About your host

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Joe James

Hi! I'm Joe. I'm a Technical Recruitment Consultant who's worked in a huge variety of industries. Having worked to hire specialists for one of the world leaders in digital accessibility, my own passion for and interest in the field has grown.

My aim is to chat with thought leaders and advocates within the space to raise more awareness of the field in general and help to understand what we can all be doing to ensure all areas of the web/technology are accessible to everyone.