Episode 9

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Published on:

23rd Feb 2024

Bev Newing - Accessibility Lead @ MoJ

Bev Newing who is the Head of Accessibility at The UK's Ministry of Justice chats with Joe about their journey within Accessibility, Burnout, Challenges for 2024 and hiring effective teams.

Resource Links:

Bev's Social Media Links:

Joe's Social Media Links:

Transcript
Speaker:

Welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast hosted by me,

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Joe James, and sponsored by PCR Digital,

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who provide people -centric recruitment.

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Throughout the series, I'll be interviewing advocates,

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experts and practitioners of digital accessibility to help

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raise awareness for the work that they do,

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and discuss the role digital accessibility has in all of

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our lives.

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I hope that you find value in these discussions and are

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inspired to join the Journey towards at more accessible

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digital world.

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So sit back, relax and I hope you enjoy the show!

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Today I'm joined by Bev Newing,

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current accessibility lead at the Ministry of Justice.

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The Ministry of Justice is the largest government body in

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the UK which employs over 90,000 people.

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So you can imagine just how huge and wide reaching the

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programmes of work Bev heads up are.

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Bev's background is in frontend and general web development

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starting at the Ministry of Justice as an accessibility

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specialist to help people better understand the Public

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Sector Bodies Accessibility Regulations or PSBAR,

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created and ran training workshops and provided

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accessibility consultancy on services across the whole

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department.

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Now working up to leading things.

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I've had the absolute pleasure of meeting Bev in person and

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watching them talk at Accessibility Scotland in 2023,

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which was fascinating.

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I hope that all of our listeners will now gain an insight

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into Bev's day-to-day and super interesting approaches to

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digital accessibility, but that's enough from me.

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So welcome to the podcast Bev.

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Thank you for having me Joe and it was great to get to meet

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you too.

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It was a good conference wasn't it?

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It was brilliant yeah.

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It was actually one of the first that I've travelled for,

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for work so yeah I was so so nervous just because I get

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really anxious.

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But such great people, such great company.

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So I felt much more at ease as they went on.

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But I'm sure we'll get a bit more into that as the podcast

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goes on.

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But cool,

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I hope that the intro was relatively accurate in terms of

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your background and what you're currently doing.

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And I guess being the accessibility leader,

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the UK government's largest department is no small

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undertaking.

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From the outside looking in,

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my assumption would be that there is an awful lot of

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pressure on your shoulders.

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So the worry is that you might be overworked or feeling

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overworked or burned out,

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which is a huge and key topic in the community,

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unfortunately.

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But do you feel that and have you got any tips for how you

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may have managed things?

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Yeah, burnout is.

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is a hot topic right now, isn't it?

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Everybody's talking about it.

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I would say though, I think in my department,

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the biggest pressure comes from me.

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Our senior management are all actually really supportive

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and really great.

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But I think with accessibility,

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there is this kind of sense of, as a specialist, you know,

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the impact of what it is to not make something accessible.

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And you're kind of tasked with telling people this and

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trying to inform them and teach them.

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And that's quite an intense situation when you're kind of

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aware that emotionally, if we don't do this,

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then people might be excluded and it's quite a fun to

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manage really.

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And also, it's a big department.

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There's a lot of stuff to do.

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And I'm a bit of a magpie.

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I like shiny things.

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Like, oh, that's a fun project.

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Ooh over there, that's a fun project.

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And so trying to be like, no, no,

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that's not on the roadmap.

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Keeping yourself sort of your focus centralised, I guess,

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is going to be tricky.

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Yeah, because so much to do, so little time.

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But yeah, I guess self, like disciplining yourself,

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I suppose, in a way to keep on the roadmap.

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Yeah, as well,

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trying to figure out when do we need to pivot versus when

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do we need to stick as well.

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Because being agile, we operate in a fairly, you know,

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like, we sort of plan as we go along.

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But there are some things that we know we need to get done,

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but then things pop up.

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And yeah, that's a work in progress that one.

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Absolutely.

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And I guess, are there certain tell tale signs?

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Are there certain times where you're like, oh,

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actually I need to take a step back?

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Yeah, I got very burnt out last year.

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And I actually have now noticed that when I get stressed,

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my sinuses start to constrict.

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And if I let it get really bad, I'll get a fever.

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So now I can sort of tell like, oh,

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am I getting am I getting a bit toasty?

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Like, oh, that's the sign.

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Just a stressful meeting.

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And after that, I'd be like, right, go for a little walk,

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like walk it off, like, get a glass of water, like,

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move around a little bit.

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But yeah, like really listening to like,

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what is my body trying to tell me in these situations?

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Yeah, work in progress, say that one.

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And also, you need to listen, not be like, no, it's fine.

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I'm just going to the next meeting.

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Like, nope.

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Nope.

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Yeah, very true.

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Because then you're no good to anyone, I suppose.

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And I mean, paramount is the is is you yourself,

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you need to look after oneself.

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You're never any good to anyone else.

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I've learned that the hard way in personal life as well,

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trying to look after family members that are unwell,

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while still trying to juggle everything and work as well.

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And it you need to just listen to other people telling you

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you know, stop.

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But also, yeah,

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like just take the time for yourself because you're no good

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to anyone when you're burned out.

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So yeah.

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I think Sean was talking about on the last podcast as well

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and saying just take time out if you need it.

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And yeah, it's just really good advice.

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Nothing, you know, things can wait a week.

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In the most cases, things can wait a week.

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And it's just really worth taking that time out.

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And if you feel like you can't,

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it's also worth thinking why can't I what has become so

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important and so dependent on me and why is the volume of

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work so big and what does that actually mean about my job?

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And is it one person's job?

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Is it three people's job?

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And how do I also make myself not a single point of

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failure?

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Yeah, very true.

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I think that that's the thing.

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It depends on team size and delegation and if you've got

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people that you can delegate to.

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It's a bit of a minefield.

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I was talking with Heather Hepburn earlier today,

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I mentioned before the podcast,

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and she was telling me how building the Champions Network

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within Sky Scanner has just helped exponentially because

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not you're not necessarily responsible for those people's

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day jobs, but they are invested and helpful.

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And I see that as a really great growing aspect to

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accessibility teams initially, I think,

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but while we're still trying to grow that awareness and

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gain that buy-in, I think if you can just have proactive,

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what would you call them?

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Good actors instead of bad actors?

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People that just want to help, I suppose.

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It can just really, really help move things along.

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Yeah,

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and making sure that you've got really robust ways of capturing

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the data as well.

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That's one thing that I a trap's not the right word for it,

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but one thing that I fell into in the first couple of years

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was responding to people on Slack.

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That message, I'd respond, I'd answer their question,

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and then get, you know,

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there'd be more questions and more questions before you

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know it, you'd have like five Slack's open,

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and you wouldn't have any of the data of what it was they

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wanted and their time frames.

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So what we've done is take a step back and say, cool, yeah,

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I'll respond to you on Slack, but here's the form,

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fill it out, and you tell us who you are,

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where your application is, what's your deadline for this,

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how do you wanna be spoken,

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like do you want Teams or do you wanna Google Meet Call?

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And then that way you've also got the data,

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so at the end of the month, you can say, oh,

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we had 14 people message us,

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and then when you talk to senior leaders, you can say,

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this is the kind of trend we're seeing over time,

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these are the topics, and then, yeah,

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then you're not being,

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people know to go somewhere else and not just come straight

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to you because then that gets a little bit little bit

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stressful.

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Definitely,

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like you said again with the single point of failure you

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don't want to be if you've got all then even just

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internally for yourself you feel that that is entirely just

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on you but yeah knowing that there are other areas that can

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sort of help you with that is, it must help.

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Brilliant, okay cool.

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So I guess moving on to the next sort of question we're all

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individuals we all have different things that make us tick.

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A bit of an insight to me my very key motivator in work and

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life is actually feedback and recognition and that makes me

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sound very needy which is a topic we were talking about as

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well before the podcast !

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but that's what really makes me tick but some people find

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that unusual for a recruiter..

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sometimes they can be seen as a bit money grabbing and

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where's the next deal coming from but yeah so if I know

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I've done a good job and I get that feedback that really

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really makes me happy and motivated to carry on doing you

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know what I'm doing so is there anything in particular that

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helps you stay on track but also maintain your motivation

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for what you're doing with all that pressure at the the M

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inistry of Justice?

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Yeah and can relate to being needy.

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We're all just human aren't we at the end of the day we're

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all humans trying to figure out this life thing aren't we?

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Absolutely yeah.

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I mean for me a big driver in this job is getting to talk

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to people who are also interested in the same sort of thing

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like one thing that I used to run I don't do as much of

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anymore but I used to run a book club where when I get

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together and we'd watch documentaries about disability and

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then discuss it afterwards and it was it was really fun and

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it was just really interesting as well to have a group of

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people to kind of have a good discussion with and share

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things with and kind of grow and evolve with and that's

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been really fun.

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Yeah, I really enjoyed doing that.

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Oh, amazing.

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I guess it takes it away from just the work day sort of an

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element as well, doesn't it?

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You can get a different perspective on things and just

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growing that friendship outside of the work day as well,

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I think helps to build that community.

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Yeah,

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especially in this more remote world that we're in these

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days.

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Post COVID, I think I'll call it, post COVID world.

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Yeah, we hope.

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Yeah, I think for me, growth is a big motivator,

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like how do you learn to make situations easier as well?

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And I'm a big fan of working for government, but at MoJ,

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I get...

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five days volunteering leave a year.

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So I go and volunteer with Three Rings CIC who do the

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volunteer management software between behind organizations

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like Samaritans, Childline, Nightlines, that's really fun.

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And yeah, there's a good L and D package as well.

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So you can kind of go to conferences and meet people.

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And yeah,

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I think that kind of community is a really big driver for

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me.

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Yeah, it sounds like the, like you say,

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the learning and development and sort of gaining that

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knowledge or growing your knowledge within the space and in

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other areas is another key motivator.

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So it's great that you've got that at the MoJ and it is

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tricky, I think,

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especially in the private sector where it is very much

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about budget and profit, the bottom line P&L.

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So it's hard when recruiting people into these roles as

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well when there's already not as much of a buy-in,

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I suppose is the keyword, for accessibility,

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then trying to explain the value behind the role and the

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worth of the person that's got all of these years of

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experience and spent a lot of time and money and resources

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getting to that point.

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Only to offer them half of what they're actually worth is,

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yeah,

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but if there was something like an L&D budget or giving

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people the opportunity to have sort of leave days or days

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dedicated to just more personal development or working on

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other things outside of their day-to-day,

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then that could be something that entices people into

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roles.

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But yeah,

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hopefully that will begin to change as the market grows.

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I hope so.

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I mean,

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the DDaT framework where we've now listed out accessibility

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as the head of senior,

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mid and junior has helped because it's kind of...

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given us a kind of North Star really to say, oh,

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you're a mid-level, if you want to progress to senior,

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here's the behaviors that you need to do,

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and then that can then feed into a learning plan.

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That just makes our lives a lot easier.

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Absolutely.

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That's another thing we'll probably come onto a little bit

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more later, but while we're on it now,

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because I know I'll forget,

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something I've been discussing recently with other members

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of different departments in government,

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but also applicants that are trying to get roles within

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this space.

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They've mentioned that I think this still,

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the DDaT framework is excellent, it's covered so much off,

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but I think the only element at the moment,

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there's still quite a lot of ambiguity when it comes to

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accessibility roles being hands-on development experience,

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because if someone is a hands-on developer,

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they could earn twice, three times, four times, what

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someone who's purely focusing in accessibility could earn.

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But...

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It shouldn't be that way because that's just going to push

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people out away from accessibility and into creating more

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potentially inaccessible technology.

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But I think it's definitely a huge,

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huge strides in the right direction.

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I think that we need to just maybe revalue certain skill

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sets and make sure that they're being recompensated fairly.

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Yeah, definitely.

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I think Craig [Abbott] shared in his recent blog post the

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kind of bands that the roles are aligned to and that

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probably does align roughly speaking with development and

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user research and design and so on.

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But it was public sector again.

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How does that compare to private sector?

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And then is that translated into the private sector?

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And with that new legislation coming in to effect in some

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point in the near future, yeah,

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we're going to need to see a lot more people, aren't we?

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We definitely are.

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And then that goes even further back into education and

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things.

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But you know me, we could probably talk for hours on end.

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We might help,

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but I'll just move on just briefly onto the next question,

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which was around your talk at Accessibility Scotland,

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which covered off a huge amount of things as well.

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So it was really, it was lovely seeing you talk.

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It was really engaging and interesting.

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And it was actually really, it was really funny.

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You put a lot of humour in there and it just came across

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really powerfully.

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So I know that you've said that you're quite a quiet person

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and when we've met, you know,

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you are quite quiet and reserved.

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But I'm also someone, weirdly enough,

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that suffers with social anxiety.

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I've got a very good mask that I can hide behind,

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learned how to deal with it.

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But I'd love to know how you found that whole process

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because it's a very daunting thing,

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there was an actual stage and lots of people and a

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microphone so was there anything in particular that you did

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to help your nerves in leading up to that?

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There were a lot of nerves, I am an anxious camper.

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I remember in the week before there was one evening what I

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was seriously considering not doing it and I very much

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thought, no, we are going to do it anymore.

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But I decided no, it is too close to the date.

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I am just going to do it.

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I also find because I am quite quiet.

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I can't do very many run -throughs because it hurts my

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throat to talk too much.

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I must talk in a really weird throaty way or something.

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If I did more than two run throughs,

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my throat would start to hurt.

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So there was also that.

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going on so I was like okay well I can't do it too many

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times through and then get into the conference itself was

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also quite a stressful, stressful trek.

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So yeah I,

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it's funny because when I reflect on that talk I think it

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was probably the best talk I've given and the one that I

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presented the most confidently in but it was carnage around

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it.

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In the day before I live in Margate which is the opposite

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end of the country to Edinburgh.

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My talk was at 10am or something like 10am in the morning.

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It takes about eight hours to get to Edinburgh and I rocked

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up at the train station at 3.30pm on the day before and

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there was a big queue outside of it and somebody was like

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oh the station's caught fire...

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and I was like excuse me?!

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I have a talk to give!

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Yeah I was like I had to be in Edinburgh for 10am and they

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were like oh okay don't know you could wait and I was like

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well I actually literally can't because the last train

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leaves Kings Cross at like 7 or 8pm so I had to trek around

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to like a different train station and Margate is literally

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like the bottom tip of the country so it's the end stop.

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So that was also a blocker for the trains coming through

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but I managed to get on like the last possible one I could

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have gotten and then got to Edinburgh at like midnight I

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think.

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Oh wow.

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And then on the day of I woke up got dressed but then got a

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little bit lost I think and I had a lot of heavy heavy bag

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with me so I sweated quite a lot.

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It was quite a warm day to be honest as well.

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It was toasty.

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So yeah I get there like about 10 minutes before the talk

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and people are recognizing me because I was just so

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stressed.

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I didn't recognize anybody else.

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People were like, oh Bev!

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Talking about these things.

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I was like, I don't know who you are.

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Why do I need to be?

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I'm talking in 10 minutes.

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Going to the talk area,

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sat down and then became aware that I had sweated through

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what I was wearing on the back and I got my delivery

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manager to come and find me because she was at the

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conference and I was like, Emma, how bad is it?

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What are we dealing with?

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And she kind of looked around in my back and she was like,

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oh...

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Oh, she could have just lied to you.

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It would have been better.

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Keep your backpack on!

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So in the video,

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I'm sat on the stage already beforehand because I was like,

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if I get up there, I don't have to show my back.

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Good shout.

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Or just shuffle along the stage sideways.

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So yeah, it's funny, when you see people do talks,

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you see like a snapshot,

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but that snapshot in time is like a curated experience

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really,

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like the amount of thought and time and practice gone into

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it.

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Yeah, it is real, but it's not as casual as it looks,

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if that makes sense.

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Yeah, I think it is, like you say,

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it's that it's almost like putting on a show in a way,

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because you want to present confidently and you really did.

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And I think that because it's such an important topic and

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field that it's hard to really joke about it.

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I know that you put great humour in,

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you had slides with seals and I remember it very clearly

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because it just really made my day.

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And all of those slides I think can still be seen on the

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Accessibility Scotland website.

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So I hope that's right and I'll add a link at the end,

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but it really was great.

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And then like you say,

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with everything that's going on around,

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you kind of have to block that out and then just go right.

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What's the important thing?

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Like the important thing is that what I'm trying to get

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across is actually a serious topic.

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And yeah,

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I think that you should be very proud of the talk.

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It was very well received.

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I think everyone, everyone was really engaged and yeah,

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yeah, it was a job very well done.

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Thank you.

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I was so nervous about it.

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It was a very personal talk as well.

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Like,

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I think accessibility is a tough topic to talk about aswell isn'

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t it.

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It's so, you know, there is no 100% accessibility.

460

:

You know,

461

:

there is about a variety of different people or different

462

:

needs and barriers which are different barriers for

463

:

different people.

464

:

And there is no like one single truth to it.

465

:

There's lots of truths and I often find that quite

466

:

intimidating when talking about it.

467

:

because it's like,

468

:

how do you encompass this huge topic into one person's

469

:

voice as well?

470

:

And so that often is quite, yeah,

471

:

it's quite stressful in itself,

472

:

but with that talk I very much wanted to do one that was

473

:

quite personal and be like,

474

:

I'm not gonna talk to everybody else,

475

:

but this is my experience and made it quite personal.

476

:

But then that made getting feedback on it quite hard as

477

:

well because, yeah,

478

:

I think there's a difference between finding cheerleaders

479

:

and getting feedback from people and does this flow makes

480

:

sense as a piece of feedback versus like,

481

:

does it look alright?

482

:

Is this okay?

483

:

Yeah, and then because it is personal, there's probably,

484

:

you're more than like I said about your delivery manager

485

:

just lying and being like, yes fine.

486

:

You will probably experience that.

487

:

If you've made it about you,

488

:

people are less likely to give you as brutal or honest

489

:

feedback if they, rather than if it's just a general topic.

490

:

So that's a really interesting point actually.

491

:

And I think that there are an awful lot of cheerleaders.

492

:

I'm one of them, cheerleaders in the space.

493

:

And I think it does help.

494

:

I think it really helps to instill confidence, definitely.

495

:

But I think that as honest as we can be, the better,

496

:

because otherwise we're just kind of blowing smoke in a way

497

:

at times.

498

:

Yeah, I think as well, trying to figure out,

499

:

do I want feedback on this as well?

500

:

From the perspective of this is, to some extent,

501

:

it's my story and trusting your gut on the narrative.

502

:

I'm trying to get better at that, trusting,

503

:

having confidence in myself as well as an anxious camper.

504

:

I do spend a lot of time being like, was that right?

505

:

Did I do that right?

506

:

And just trying to be like, no, actually, this is...

507

:

Yeah, I could structure it in a different way,

508

:

but I'm going to go with my seals and it landed.

509

:

Yeah, yeah.

510

:

Phew.

511

:

That was great.

512

:

Awesome.

513

:

And I've been very fortunate to stay in touch with you

514

:

since and we've had some back and forth chats about all

515

:

sorts of things.

516

:

But more recently about the state of recruitment, my job,

517

:

but all specifically within accessibility and the

518

:

profession.

519

:

We're seeing an awful lot out there at the moment.

520

:

In way of content where people are discussing job

521

:

descriptions that are asking for way too much.

522

:

Salary expectations of candidates,

523

:

but then the actual salaries being offered.

524

:

So as someone who has recruited in their own team and I

525

:

believe you're currently going through a selection process

526

:

at the moment as well,

527

:

do you have any advice for other leaders or hiring managers

528

:

that are looking to engage with and retain experts within

529

:

the space?

530

:

It is a tough market at the moment, I will say.

531

:

There's a lot going on right now,

532

:

very kind of choppy landscape.

533

:

I sometimes think as well when I see these job ads that are

534

:

they are a bit chaotic to be a little bit blunt about it.

535

:

I wonder how did they end up in a situation where they

536

:

published that?

537

:

Is it coming from a place of they are just really stressed

538

:

and they haven't really had the chance to sit down and

539

:

think about is this practical?

540

:

Are they just being given more than they can do and they've

541

:

just stuck it on a page to get it out their head?

542

:

And then maybe they're under so much pressure that there's

543

:

a not time or support to get a review on it and that kind

544

:

of workshopping around what's going to go in it.

545

:

There's that and then there's also people who just really

546

:

genuinely don't know because we're still, it's,

547

:

I know that people have been doing this for a long time but

548

:

it does feel like it's on a kind of a growth phase at the

549

:

moment or it's gone from a few people,

550

:

a lot of people have been doing it really well and really

551

:

thoroughly for a long time to a really big kind of career

552

:

growth.

553

:

So we've been seeing in the campaigns that there's a lot of

554

:

people out there now who have been accessibility leads kind

555

:

of on their own in organisations and they've done a great

556

:

job of taking it and owning it and we've got a lot of leads

557

:

out there now.

558

:

So yeah it's a tough space.

559

:

I often wonder what's the context to this ad going out,

560

:

like what's the story there?

561

:

Yeah I think that what you touched on there about there

562

:

being a lot of leads that have done it sort of headed

563

:

things up on their own and supported or championed things

564

:

at maybe smaller companies or there's a smaller budget in

565

:

place for it.

566

:

I think they're absolute foot soldiers and warriors you

567

:

know to take that on and without the support really and

568

:

having that all on their shoulders.

569

:

However it's really difficult because they're so used to

570

:

being all fingers in all pies,

571

:

touching on every part of accessibility and then feeling

572

:

like that.

573

:

That job description actually does fit what they were doing

574

:

at that time because they were quite the go-to person for

575

:

every element.

576

:

However,

577

:

you can't really translate that and they're then moving

578

:

into a larger government department or a larger company

579

:

that has a team to support them.

580

:

So I think it's again it's so nuanced it's so specific and

581

:

particular.

582

:

I think that the onus is still it has to be with the hirers

583

:

and with the recruitment teams I think as well because

584

:

they're the first port of call you know they have to

585

:

approve job specs they're being put out.

586

:

But yeah,

587

:

I think it's the more understanding the internal teams that

588

:

aren't 'doing the thing' but who are still involved with

589

:

the process,

590

:

the more they understand about just what they're asking,

591

:

the better.

592

:

Obviously,

593

:

it's easier said than done because being a recruiter is

594

:

focused in that space.

595

:

To me, it makes sense,

596

:

but then you can't have a specific focus on one field

597

:

within a large organisation.

598

:

They have to work in multiple roles and spaces.

599

:

But yeah,

600

:

I do think that educating the recruitment team on just what

601

:

they're asking for before rejecting applicants because they

602

:

don't take every box would help.

603

:

It would be a step in the right direction.

604

:

Yeah, it is really tough.

605

:

One thing I'm sort of observing as well is we're an

606

:

industry with a lot of seniors and a lot of leads and yeah,

607

:

that is a tough, it's quite top heavy as an industry,

608

:

which is a tough,

609

:

tough space and lead means different thing in different

610

:

places, you know,

611

:

my job has really changed over the years as well,

612

:

in terms of from going from the single person who's doing

613

:

accessibility to now my role as this kind of heading up the

614

:

team is very different.

615

:

It's, yeah,

616

:

I don't do the day to day anymore and there's a lot more of

617

:

giving other people leadership on things and it's a very

618

:

different structure and it's, yeah, it's a tricky industry.

619

:

It's really tough.

620

:

I think that we need people that have that senior level

621

:

lead experience in your position though,

622

:

because you will have the understanding of how long things

623

:

might take and you've been there and done that sort of

624

:

thing.

625

:

So that absolutely, you know,

626

:

the reason for that sort of hierarchy or level of sort of

627

:

seniority is definitely needed for support more than

628

:

anything really, but then the understanding to, well,

629

:

I know that you're capable of X because I can see that

630

:

you've done it or, you know, the identifiers are there.

631

:

So, yeah, but it is, it can be such a minefield.

632

:

It's very, very tricky from both sides.

633

:

So it is, I think the unfortunate thing in recruitment,

634

:

oftentimes people see hiring managers and recruiters as

635

:

sort of against each other, but I think it really,

636

:

really isn't the case.

637

:

I think we really just need to be one and the same, like,

638

:

you know,

639

:

working to do both working towards the same cause.

640

:

You want to retain people,

641

:

you want to make sure they're right because the whole,

642

:

you don't want to go through the whole recruitment process

643

:

again anytime soon.

644

:

I know that for a fact.

645

:

And it's, neither does an applicant, you know, it's,

646

:

there's nothing worse than being stuck looking for a job

647

:

and I think having that empathy but having someone that you

648

:

know really can understand where they're coming from is

649

:

needed before it just becomes an automated mess of you're

650

:

not right for this job because you didn't hit X criteria.

651

:

But yeah so...

652

:

Yeah that is really tough like there's just a lot of people

653

:

in the market at the moment and having done a lot of hiring

654

:

recently at one point there was somebody I had to say I'm

655

:

sorry you're not getting the role.

656

:

And I actually cried because I really really liked the

657

:

person but they just weren't quite the right person out of

658

:

the candidates that we'd had and that is tough when you've

659

:

got one campaign with one role in it and you know you're

660

:

seeing all these applicants and you're like you're all

661

:

great like I would love to work with all of you but like

662

:

you know I can't and that is yeah that is really tough.

663

:

Yeah, I think you've mentioned as well.

664

:

Sorry.

665

:

So just for full disclosure, if we're ever

666

:

doing podcast episodes.

667

:

I send questions,

668

:

guests send me notes back so that we can stay on topic

669

:

because I am a waffler.

670

:

But you've mentioned in here as well about emphasising.

671

:

So on the positive side of things, I completely agree.

672

:

And unfortunately,

673

:

it's a part of a big part of my job telling people they

674

:

haven't got the job.

675

:

And it's an awful, awful, awful thing to have to do.

676

:

Unfortunately,

677

:

a lot of recruiters put it off and don't do it over the

678

:

phone, which I think is the worst thing you can do.

679

:

It's just because then it's just again so impersonal.

680

:

If they've spent time and effort going through a process

681

:

and at the end of the day, it's our business.

682

:

This is how I earn money.

683

:

So the least I can do is try and give them feedback and be

684

:

as accurate as possible.

685

:

So I think that that's where we work very well together in

686

:

terms of hiring managers and recruiters is if you can just

687

:

respect the time that it's taken that person and if they

688

:

they're ending up with nothing at the end if they're not

689

:

getting the job.

690

:

So the least we can do is try and help them towards gaining

691

:

a role in new applications or what they can improve upon.

692

:

It's really super helpful.

693

:

But sorry.

694

:

So yeah,

695

:

another point on here on this topic was that you like to

696

:

emphasise that your team.

697

:

that you ARE a team.

698

:

And could you tell us a little bit more about that and how

699

:

that helps with sort of recruitment process as well?

700

:

Yeah,

701

:

I like to think that's one of the big kind of setting points

702

:

of my team really is that we are a team.

703

:

I remember back when I was on my own,

704

:

you'd come across things and you think, oh,

705

:

what I know about is that WCAG 1.3.1 or is that, you know,

706

:

a different one?

707

:

And it's just so much easier when you've got a team to go

708

:

to and say, hey, you know, I've been in this, it's cool.

709

:

I was in this thing.

710

:

I don't really know.

711

:

I've got an idea.

712

:

But what what are the rest of you think?

713

:

have a debate like in our team we have a fortnightly team

714

:

consensus where we all bring things in while we are not

715

:

really sure about we have stand-ups every day though as

716

:

well so if anybody wants to bring anything to that they can.

717

:

and it is just it's nice to know you've got that wrapper

718

:

around you so that you know if you get a little bit stuck

719

:

then you can get support and with the team structure that

720

:

we have we have mids,

721

:

seniors and myself there's often an escalation point as

722

:

well so lots of support to be had

723

:

and I think that's just yeah I wish I'd had that when I was

724

:

starting out because I think a lot of us have become leads

725

:

on our own and we haven't had that that kind of we sort of

726

:

learn in the in the wild really and not all had that kind

727

:

of support around us but things like "CAN" are great which

728

:

Heather runs with Charlie yeah things like that are a

729

:

really great at helping with that

730

:

Definitely,

731

:

yeah and the events they put on are just amazing and there

732

:

are plans for me to try and revive a London-based

733

:

accessibility event this year at some point and I just

734

:

don't know how I could compete so I think my plan is

735

:

actually to try and mesh them together in a way.

736

:

I think that would be the best result but yeah I

737

:

think they're just phenomenal.

738

:

I think a huge pulling point for accessibility and why

739

:

people want to work in this field is because as much as

740

:

everyone's competing everyone naturally is in the business

741

:

world, even within government.

742

:

Within accessibility everyone cares about the common goal

743

:

everyone's going towards the greater good and I don't think

744

:

anyone's really holding anything back like;

745

:

I'm doing this look this is how I've done it this might

746

:

help you I think it's such a sharing community that it's

747

:

not really seen elsewhere in tech so yeah as a huge empath

748

:

I think that's why I've been drawn to it anyway.

749

:

Yeah same,

750

:

same yeah my background before tech was diversity well but

751

:

not before tech but before being a developer was diversity

752

:

in tech and I really loved that community things like CodeB

753

:

ar and Code First Girls where you're getting people

754

:

together and yeah doing that skill sharing and yeah it's

755

:

just the way forward isn't it?

756

:

Absolutely and I think that's another thing where you're

757

:

saying top heavy lots of seniors and lots of leads in

758

:

accessibility another thing that Heather was saying earlier

759

:

today was that working with those communities to push

760

:

process within design and development for accessibility

761

:

first that will help us have more junior or mid-level

762

:

resources that that we can sort of lean upon as well.

763

:

Yeah exactly.

764

:

So that would be good to try and incorporate that somehow

765

:

but cool.

766

:

I'm really conscious that I'm asking you way more questions

767

:

than I had put on our sheet.

768

:

So I'm just going to bring it back to sort of challenges

769

:

for accessibility for this year, if that's okay.

770

:

So what do you,

771

:

is there anything that you foresee being the biggest

772

:

challenge or hurdle within digital accessibility for this

773

:

year?

774

:

And of course we've got regulation change in Europe coming

775

:

up next year.

776

:

And I mean,

777

:

I think that's going to bring about huge increased demand

778

:

for those with specialist knowledge,

779

:

but how do you see that being sort dealt with?

780

:

Yeah,

781

:

I think the big challenge for us as an industry is getting

782

:

that junior pipeline in,

783

:

because we've got a lot of seniors and yeah,

784

:

I think our next role as a community with a lot of seniors

785

:

is to then create the junior and the mid roles to then

786

:

bring more people in, especially junior roles.

787

:

And the Home Office do lots of apprenticeships,

788

:

which is really great,

789

:

and that's something that I really aspire to go to do.

790

:

I remember my team fingers crossed with the future.

791

:

I would love to do that.

792

:

But yeah, we just, yeah, we can do with more people.

793

:

And more entry-level roles as well,

794

:

because a lot of us transition from being developers,

795

:

you're a Senior Developer,

796

:

you slide sideways into being a senior specialist.

797

:

What about the people who aren't developers who maybe

798

:

aren't even necessarily a digital person,

799

:

but they want to get into it?

800

:

But it's very difficult going from that into the senior

801

:

roles that are out there.

802

:

So yeah, junior roles, I think are going to be the big,

803

:

the big challenge for us to kind of meet the demand that

804

:

you're saying, you know,

805

:

pointing out it's going to come with the new legislation,

806

:

continuing to work with the government legislation, PSBAR.

807

:

Yeah, that will work to be done.

808

:

Lots and lots.

809

:

And it just made me think then,

810

:

I know that there are sort of senior or mid-level roles

811

:

being advertised across the board at the moment in

812

:

accessibility, which is great to see.

813

:

But I think the other part is transferable skills.

814

:

I think if we can identify exactly what it is we're looking

815

:

for and knowing that someone has a passion or can

816

:

demonstrate that on a lot of interviews,

817

:

give them a task in the first stage and say,

818

:

what do you know about digital accessibility and why would

819

:

you like to work in this space?

820

:

That can be quite a simple case study that they

821

:

could do and come back with alongside genuine passion and

822

:

other maybe administrative skills or junior level

823

:

experience and splitting out a mid or senior level role so

824

:

that you have the quantity of the people,

825

:

which I know that quality is of paramount importance.

826

:

But when you've only got eight hours of a day,

827

:

if you have two people that are 16 hours of working

828

:

towards the same goal,

829

:

and if they're trained in the right way,

830

:

then you've doubled up the help, but it's...

831

:

I think it's just identifying those needs and manpower is

832

:

going to be huge, hugely needed.

833

:

Or person, people power.

834

:

Manpower is a bit misogynistic.

835

:

But yeah, I really appreciate it.

836

:

I think that you're spot on with that and hopefully I'll be

837

:

able to help with that and we can grow the network and get

838

:

some more junior resources interested in the field of

839

:

accessibility.

840

:

Yeah.

841

:

But that does bring me to final thoughts, Bev.

842

:

So if you've got anything of real importance for you at the

843

:

moment,

844

:

either within accessibility or just in your personal life,

845

:

then yeah, feel free to share.

846

:

Well, very importantly,

847

:

deciding whether or not to get a cat or a dog or both and

848

:

when and how.

849

:

I have three cats,

850

:

none of them are in this room at the moment.

851

:

I was also allergic to cats when I met my fiancee.

852

:

Still am, but...

853

:

she would say otherwise.

854

:

But yes,

855

:

I would say cat because they're not as much of a tie as a

856

:

dog, but I am definitely a dog per...

857

:

well, I'm both...

858

:

I'm an animal lover.

859

:

Well, one vote for Cat then! Woohoo!

860

:

On a more serious note though,

861

:

I think like one thing I'm thinking a lot about at the

862

:

moment is is like what connection looks like in the current

863

:

world, you know, you know, sort of hopefully post pandemic.

864

:

We've all moved haven't we?

865

:

And we all live in different places and we've made...

866

:

it's more than just moving,

867

:

we've made life changes off the back of the pandemic,

868

:

you know.

869

:

I've moved to Margaret because my grandparents are down

870

:

here and they, you know,

871

:

they're not having the best of times.

872

:

So yeah, I'm down here and I need to be down here.

873

:

But what does that mean for me and my friendship groups,

874

:

you know, other people have moved for similar reasons,

875

:

you know.

876

:

I went from having a London group of friends to one now

877

:

lives in Copenhagen, you know, one moved up Oxford way...

878

:

yeah.

879

:

And then how do you still remain connected digitally?

880

:

And also how do you approach like going back into the kind

881

:

of physical world like carefully as well and like

882

:

reflecting on the collective trauma really of the pandemic

883

:

and not being allowed to enter a society?

884

:

And yeah, what do we really...

885

:

who are we after?

886

:

And it's...

887

:

yeah, I think it's a...

888

:

what I take comfort in is that is something that strangely

889

:

enough, not many generations will have gone through.

890

:

It's a huge community thing,

891

:

like everyone experienced it in their own way.

892

:

I think it impacted some groups of people more than others.

893

:

But I think as a whole,

894

:

we can all look back at that and go, wow,

895

:

we got through that.

896

:

But that's just me being ever the optimist is trying to

897

:

take a good from a bad and terrible situation.

898

:

But they say again, it's like, you know,

899

:

you haven't seen camaraderie like that since war times and

900

:

we're very fortunate to not be in a country that's affected

901

:

directly by war.

902

:

Obviously,

903

:

there's there's horrific things happening around the world

904

:

at the moment, but it's, I think,

905

:

taking a positive from that is really good.

906

:

And it's something you can refer back to conversation as

907

:

well, I suppose.

908

:

But again, being sensitive to it.

909

:

Yeah.

910

:

Yeah.

911

:

It's a big thing, yeah, like

912

:

making new friends as well where you are now and

913

:

navigating work and maybe like office changes as well.

914

:

Like, yeah,

915

:

it feels like there's a lot going on that we haven't really

916

:

got a kind of community language for yet really,

917

:

not language, but the right,

918

:

the right kind of conversation around it.

919

:

Yeah, absolutely.

920

:

Well,

921

:

hopefully we can approach that and we'll have more conversations

922

:

around it.

923

:

You know, I'm only down the road as well.

924

:

So if you ever feel like you want some company and want to

925

:

go out and paint the town blue or whatever colour,

926

:

then you can give me a shout.

927

:

So I'm more than happy to hang out.

928

:

But yeah, yeah,

929

:

it's just been an absolute pleasure getting to know you

930

:

more and more over the last couple of years Bev,

931

:

and I hope that that continues.

932

:

Me too.

933

:

Thank you so much for today and for being on the episode.

934

:

It's been great,

935

:

really good insight into how you do things and coping

936

:

mechanisms and things.

937

:

So also for all the incredible work you do.

938

:

So whenever I talk to people in accessibility and if I ever

939

:

mention who I've been speaking to,

940

:

because I like to name drop and you come up into

941

:

conversation like you're very well respected,

942

:

known and appreciated.

943

:

So I hope you know that.

944

:

Keep fighting the good fight.

945

:

And I'll share links to any resources.

946

:

So like the Accessibility Scotland talk we spoke about.

947

:

And if you're happy for people to connect with you on

948

:

LinkedIn and other socials, I'll share those.

949

:

But yeah, thanks so much for being on the podcast.

950

:

Yeah, thank you for having me.

951

:

It's been great!

952

:

Thanks again to both for joining me today.

953

:

And I just want to address the audio crackle on my side.

954

:

Unfortunately, I couldn't get rid of it in the edit,

955

:

but I've since upgraded my equipment.

956

:

So it shouldn't happen again.

957

:

And I hope that the transcript and captions will help you

958

:

follow along.

959

:

Thanks again, and I'll see you on the next one!

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About the Podcast

The Digital Accessibility Podcast
Interviews with Digital Accessibility Leaders
In The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Accessibility Leaders are interviewed by Joe James about the importance of digital accessibility in business and society.

Joe is a Digital Accessibility Recruiter at PCR Digital with an inquisitive mind and a passion for the space.

Tune in for key insights, personal accounts, and takeaways about the importance of digital accessibility, told by experts.

Contact: joe.james@pcrdigital.com
PCR Digital: https://www.pcrdigital.com/

About your host

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Joe James

Hi! I'm Joe. I'm a Technical Recruitment Consultant who's worked in a huge variety of industries. Having worked to hire specialists for one of the world leaders in digital accessibility, my own passion for and interest in the field has grown.

My aim is to chat with thought leaders and advocates within the space to raise more awareness of the field in general and help to understand what we can all be doing to ensure all areas of the web/technology are accessible to everyone.