Henny Swan - Director at Tetralogical
The Digital Accessibility Podcast – Henny Swan
In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Joe James is joined by Henny Swan, internationally recognised accessibility expert and Co-Founder of TetraLogical.
Henny brings decades of experience from organisations like the BBC, Opera Software, and W3C, and shares powerful insights on how inclusive design principles and accessible product thinking can transform digital services.
We discuss:
- The evolution of accessibility – from early days at the BBC to shaping global standards through W3C, Henny reflects on progress made and what still needs to change.
- Inclusive Design Principles – co-author of this foundational guidance, Henny explains how they came to be and how teams can use them today.
- Mobile accessibility and emerging tech – Henny shares her take on designing for mobile-first environments and what emerging technologies mean for accessibility.
- Accessibility in product and policy – how embedding accessibility into the fabric of digital strategy, procurement, and leadership ensures sustainable change.
- Advice for accessibility leaders – practical steps for building influence, scaling efforts, and creating cross-functional impact in organisations.
Whether you're scaling accessibility across teams or looking to create more inclusive digital experiences from the ground up, this conversation with Henny offers clarity, context, and inspiration.
Follow Henny Swan:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hennyswan/
TetraLogical: https://tetralogical.com/
Follow Joe James:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/
Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/A11yJoe
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PCRDigital
Visit PCR Digital:
Transcript
Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.
Speaker:If you're looking to learn more about the field of
Speaker:accessibility, how to implement it within your role
Speaker:or your company, or to get advice on where to start or
Speaker:see how others have navigated complex issues that you may
Speaker:find along the way, then you're in the right place.
Speaker:I'm honored to be able to share these insightful
Speaker:chats with thought leaders, advocates, and practitioners
Speaker:of digital accessibility throughout this podcast,
Speaker:and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.
Speaker:As always, thank you so much for listening, and I
Speaker:hope you enjoy the chat.
Speaker:Today.
Speaker:I'm thrilled and honored to be joined by Henny Swan,
Speaker:an internationally renowned accessibility expert and
Speaker:Co-Founder of TetraLogical.
Speaker:With years of experience working in some of the
Speaker:biggest names in tech and accessibility advocacy,
Speaker:Henny has been a driving force in creating inclusive
Speaker:digital experiences.
Speaker:She's co-author of the Inclusive Design
Speaker:Principles and was the lead author of the BBC Mobile
Speaker:Accessibility Guidelines.
Speaker:Henny's one of the founders of TetraLogical , a London based
Speaker:accessibility consultancy that helps organisations
Speaker:design, build, and maintain accessible digital products.
Speaker:We'll dive into Henny's inspiring journey in the
Speaker:accessibility space, the story behind TetraLogical , the
Speaker:challenges organisations face today, and how
Speaker:upcoming regulations like the European Accessibility
Speaker:Act will shape the future of the digital landscape.
Speaker:So welcome to the podcast Henny.
Speaker:Thank you so much, Joe.
Speaker:It's a, it's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker:Oh, thank you.
Speaker:But great.
Speaker:So I guess to get, to get started, we always like
Speaker:to ask about our guest's personal journey into the
Speaker:accessibility space or world.
Speaker:So, was there anything that initially inspired you to
Speaker:focus on this area and how has your sort of perspective
Speaker:evolved over the years?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Good question.
Speaker:Well, I, I think I'm one of those odd balls.
Speaker:I kind of came at accessibility via a
Speaker:very circuitous route.
Speaker:I think like many people my age, Sort
Speaker:of in their fifties.
Speaker:My background wasn't in tech or design.
Speaker:The, the web wasn't really around when I was at
Speaker:university, so, I was, uh, I did Asian politics and
Speaker:Chinese language, which, which led me to China and, and I
Speaker:was there in the nineties when it was the .com boom.
Speaker:And kicked off working for a Chinese search
Speaker:engine in Shanghai.
Speaker:Uh, and when it got squeezed out of a very tough market, I
Speaker:tried and spectacularly failed to set up a dual language,
Speaker:uh, marketplace for Chinese sellers and overseas buyers.
Speaker:a little company called Alibaba filled up that
Speaker:space, so we quietly moved to one side.
Speaker:Essentially what I was doing was really looking at user
Speaker:flows and, and usability and kind of working out how, how
Speaker:that worked for dual language and, and things like that.
Speaker:Trying to understand how people might want to
Speaker:interact with webpages.
Speaker:I don't even think I called it usability back then.
Speaker:I don't think I even knew what the word was.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:So came back to the uk and then I saw a job
Speaker:advert for the Royal National Institute of Blind
Speaker:People, and it was for an accessibility specialist.
Speaker:And I sort of remember thinking, I kind of know what
Speaker:accessibility is, but I've never done it in my roles
Speaker:before because it, it, it didn't feature in any way,
Speaker:shape or form over in China.
Speaker:So I literally sat down that day and read everything I
Speaker:could find on the internet, which was Rick had 1.0
Speaker:and some guidance on RNIB.
Speaker:I literally don't remember anything else being
Speaker:out there and something just landed with me.
Speaker:It clicked.
Speaker:that was the missing piece and that's where I kind
Speaker:of knew where I wanted to go within digital.
Speaker:So I applied that night.
Speaker:And actually I, I really haven't ever looked back.
Speaker:I, I kind of, I just knew it's for me and the idea
Speaker:that technology could include or exclude people depending
Speaker:on how that technology is built, was something I
Speaker:just can't accept that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm fixer.
Speaker:I wanna fix things.
Speaker:And, uh, you know, and it, it just felt like I
Speaker:want, I wanted to go and sort of fill the gaps that
Speaker:actually a lot of people weren't even aware of.
Speaker:So, so that was my start.
Speaker:But in terms of how my perspective has changed,
Speaker:it's a really good question.
Speaker:I think like most people in the beginning, back then.
Speaker:I thought accessibility was mostly about code and, you
Speaker:know, little bit about design.
Speaker:You know, if we wrote the right code and we used
Speaker:the correct markup and we followed the standards and
Speaker:we followed the guidelines, then things would get better.
Speaker:And of course that is partly true.
Speaker:But, what I came to understand really quite rapidly is it's
Speaker:fundamentally about people.
Speaker:People come first before the technology.
Speaker:You know, it's about kind of giving people
Speaker:their equity back, via the systems we build.
Speaker:You know, whether they let people in or shut people out.
Speaker:And I think what's changed most in my appreciation
Speaker:of accessibility is probably context.
Speaker:And a large part of that is, is really how teams work, the
Speaker:context that they work within the constraints they have, the
Speaker:realities of product delivery and how we do this well when
Speaker:all the business has lots of other screeching priorities.
Speaker:And it comes down, you know, that context piece for
Speaker:me comes down to empathy.
Speaker:So not just for the people that are using
Speaker:technology, but for the people who are building
Speaker:and designing and managing and delivering technology
Speaker:and understanding their challenges and how we can
Speaker:help them, you know, remove those challenges really.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Incredible.
Speaker:And it's just, it's almost a Pandora's box.
Speaker:I think I use that analogy all the time as soon as
Speaker:you sort of dip your toe, uh, in the accessibility
Speaker:field, it is quite odd.
Speaker:I had a really interesting conversation a couple of
Speaker:weeks ago with a few, uh, friends in the space about
Speaker:how, obviously, algorithms online work and LinkedIn
Speaker:so my LinkedIn profile is full, it's a wash with what's
Speaker:going on in accessibility and look at all of this
Speaker:great work that's happening.
Speaker:But part of that is because I'm interacting
Speaker:with that type of content.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I'm interested in that space.
Speaker:So it gives me kind of a probably a wrong perspective
Speaker:to think just how am I, I mean there is an awful lot being
Speaker:done and it's incredible and that's part and parcel to
Speaker:TetraLogical and what you are doing in this space, but
Speaker:am I being sort of wrongly informed by the algorithm
Speaker:to say, actually yeah, everyone, everyone knows about
Speaker:accessibility because then I just think, oh, of course I
Speaker:just need to talk about that.
Speaker:And then people will understand what I'm, you
Speaker:know, what I'm getting at.
Speaker:But there is still an awful lot.
Speaker:So I, I dunno, ever I need an, a separate account or a,
Speaker:like an AI model of me that's actually not ever searched
Speaker:anything about accessibility
Speaker:so I get a true, a true perspective.
Speaker:I think that's what I need.
Speaker:I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Speaker:It is the algorithms, but you know what, that's nothing new.
Speaker:Like, I remember being on Twitter in 2007 or whatever,
Speaker:and then I suddenly, I was like, oh my gosh,
Speaker:everyone on Twitter's talking about accessibility
Speaker:it's arrived and I was like, oh wait, no, it hasn't.
Speaker:I've just followed a bunch of people, uh, and, and I think
Speaker:it's really important because I've just had to have a
Speaker:little talk to myself recently because I've been living in
Speaker:my accessibility world where we have customers who come to
Speaker:us because they kind of they don't need the advocacy piece.
Speaker:They don't need to be bought in.
Speaker:They get it.
Speaker:And we have some really amazing customers.
Speaker:And I'm sort of working with, with an organisation
Speaker:at the moment who haven't had that exposure.
Speaker:So it's really taking me back to those kind of early
Speaker:advocacy skills and, and really having to bring in
Speaker:that empathy and understanding the pain points and the fear
Speaker:you know, it, it's tough.
Speaker:Why are you asking us to do this?
Speaker:Do we have to do it now?
Speaker:What do, it's not in our budget, it's
Speaker:not in our roadmap.
Speaker:And it's like, it's okay.
Speaker:Uh, we we're gonna take this really slowly and step by
Speaker:step, but there's, you know, every single organisation
Speaker:you talk to is different and their context changes and
Speaker:yeah, and our context can be very, very, yeah, singing
Speaker:to the choir sometimes.
Speaker:Yeah, and it, I mean, I'm sorry, I've, I should
Speaker:be moving on to the next question, but just on
Speaker:this point, one more thing, about that as well.
Speaker:So it's amazing to be working with, you know,
Speaker:some of the amazing brands and, and clients that you
Speaker:do have with, uh, through or as TetraLogical, however
Speaker:there's always that step change almost as well
Speaker:if there's a change in leadership, a change in
Speaker:the team or the design or development team, without
Speaker:that advocacy piece or the maturity model being
Speaker:met with the initial work that you are doing, that
Speaker:you could end up back at square one, couldn't you?
Speaker:I suppose your work is quickly undone at times.
Speaker:It can be really quickly undone.
Speaker:It kind of, it kind of depends on how, how long the
Speaker:history is of accessibility within that organisation.
Speaker:So, you see organisations where all, all the
Speaker:accessibility is down to the people who are
Speaker:prepared to take it on.
Speaker:And then when they leave, there's, there's this,
Speaker:this terrible about vacuum.
Speaker:Then you've got organisations who've gone
Speaker:through several iterations around accessibility.
Speaker:So perhaps they've been doing it for it
Speaker:really last 20 years.
Speaker:And there are organisations who have, and so they kind
Speaker:of have, have changes in, organisational changes, not
Speaker:necessarily team changes and that can absolutely
Speaker:impact culture and morale and with that it impacts
Speaker:every aspect of your work
Speaker:but, you know, in accessibility, we can see how
Speaker:things can very quickly fall apart, but something that
Speaker:I've noticed personally is in terms of, we kind of work
Speaker:on large consultancy pieces and often we're working, you
Speaker:know, our point of contact will be a lead who's probably
Speaker:sitting within the UX area, but we're starting to work
Speaker:increasingly, uh, when it comes to large organisations
Speaker:with change managers.
Speaker:Because either they're looking to like reimagine
Speaker:how they do accessibility or they're looking to bring
Speaker:accessibility into the organisation and facilitate
Speaker:that really fundamental cultural change, which has to
Speaker:happen before accessibility can truly be successful.
Speaker:And I just think that's really interesting
Speaker:and, uh, honestly, in my role, change managers
Speaker:are my new best friends.
Speaker:Like, they're great.
Speaker:They're amazing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's interesting.
Speaker:I mean, I'm desperate to get to this next question,
Speaker:but it's just fascinating.
Speaker:You're bringing up so many points.
Speaker:The, I think that there's a part there as well with the
Speaker:whole digital transformation
Speaker:there's so many companies that went through that, and how
Speaker:much of that transformation included accessibility or,
Speaker:you know, usability as a, as a best practice when
Speaker:they were transforming their processes or their systems to
Speaker:be more digitally, uh, usable.
Speaker:So, I dunno, maybe something may have been missed for
Speaker:certain organisations at least, when doing that.
Speaker:Yeah, it feels like, it feels like it is because
Speaker:when I'm aware of kind of accessibility being, you know,
Speaker:accessibility, transformation, it's not generally through a
Speaker:big digital transformation.
Speaker:That's a really interesting point, Joe, actually no,
Speaker:definitely haven't been part of a big digital
Speaker:transformation with accessibility, so oh,
Speaker:got me thinking there.
Speaker:But maybe that's the thing and it's the natural sort of
Speaker:place for it to be with that change management because
Speaker:it is, it's the, it's, it's beyond the tech is, there's,
Speaker:there's so much more to it.
Speaker:It should be.
Speaker:It should be.
Speaker:But maybe it's just a bigger, sometimes
Speaker:it is a bigger piece.
Speaker:I don't know, but yeah.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Well, so finally to question two, sorry, I'm taking more
Speaker:of your time than I thought.
Speaker:You have had an incredible journey throughout
Speaker:your whole career.
Speaker:Uh, so you've worked with some of the most
Speaker:influential companies, uh, in accessibility, and not
Speaker:necessarily accessibility focused, uh, organisations,
Speaker:but you've worked with the RNIB, the BBC Opera
Speaker:Software, the PASI Group.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:I was gonna ask, I'm finally getting there
Speaker:to this question.
Speaker:What led to the founding of TetraLogical and your role
Speaker:as director there, and, and how does the mission and
Speaker:approach differ from, uh, your competitors, I suppose, or
Speaker:other consultancies out there?
Speaker:Cool.
Speaker:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker:I mean, I've, I've been really fortunate with some
Speaker:of the organisations I've worked with, and I think
Speaker:each and every one has taught me a lesson, which I've
Speaker:brought into TetraLogical.
Speaker:I've been really fortunate on my accessibility
Speaker:journey and, and, and I think I've been fortunate.
Speaker:Both in terms of opportunities, but also the
Speaker:products I've worked on.
Speaker:I've been able to work on products I use, and I
Speaker:love, you know, thinking about, you know, iPlayer and
Speaker:Netflix and things like that.
Speaker:But equally, I, you know, working alongside people
Speaker:who I, you know, genuinely care about accessibility.
Speaker:And I am gonna answer your question.
Speaker:I'm gonna get to the point,
Speaker:uh, you know, all of that.
Speaker:You know, you, you, you learn a lot from
Speaker:people who inspire you.
Speaker:You learn a lot from people who.
Speaker:Don't inspire you as well.
Speaker:equally you learn a lot from kind of.
Speaker:Cultural shifts within your, within your kind
Speaker:of area and things.
Speaker:So I, I would say that the, the four of us,
Speaker:uh, at TetraLogical , he, he set it up.
Speaker:So, lo Watson, Ian p Steve, and I all had a very
Speaker:kind of firm shared belief that accessibility needs
Speaker:needed a fresh approach.
Speaker:this was sort of a, a while ago.
Speaker:And, and one that really puts people back in the center.
Speaker:So, so we felt that, uh, accessibility was, was very
Speaker:much starting to become rooted in compliance strategy,
Speaker:which leaves people behind.
Speaker:And, and, and that's why our, our mission, you
Speaker:know, up, up there in, in lights on a website is we
Speaker:believe in a world where technology holds no one back.
Speaker:And the key word here is actually no one.
Speaker:because what we mean by that is.
Speaker:You know, we want to remove barriers for disabled people
Speaker:using technology, of course.
Speaker:But, and I've alluded to this already, it's just as
Speaker:important, uh, to remove the barriers, uh, for people
Speaker:who are designing, building, managing, and delivering
Speaker:accessible technology.
Speaker:So that's what we wanted to do.
Speaker:We wanted to sort of put people back at the center and.
Speaker:And perhaps, uh, make sure that accessibility wasn't
Speaker:just a compliance strategy.
Speaker:So perhaps what makes us different is that
Speaker:we, we, we look at both sides of the equation.
Speaker:and we are thinking about people all the time.
Speaker:So we kind of, I. Put touch article together based
Speaker:around four core principles.
Speaker:So unsurprisingly, being inclusive is one.
Speaker:So making sure we include everyone sustainable,
Speaker:which for us, sustainable accessibility is around.
Speaker:making sure that every single piece of work and effort
Speaker:you do around accessibility is something that doesn't
Speaker:just fix the current state, but can actually be used
Speaker:to, you know, fix future.
Speaker:Things and stop other issues arising.
Speaker:and these aren't just words on the webpage either that,
Speaker:you know, they are literally how we make design decisions.
Speaker:Uh, they're and design decisions for us are
Speaker:how we design services that, that meet the
Speaker:needs of our customers.
Speaker:And, you know, they inform how we work with our customers,
Speaker:how we run the company, how we look after the team, and
Speaker:just how we kind of try and make decisions which, which
Speaker:make a more, more accessible digital world really.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that I, I we're seeing a lot more from the
Speaker:recruitment side of things.
Speaker:So the, the amazing clients that we are partnering with,
Speaker:a lot of the focus is, is starting to be on design
Speaker:systems, and reusable accessible components.
Speaker:So that, I think may be, does that touch on a, a.
Speaker:Small area of what you do at TetraLogical in terms of
Speaker:design systems and things?
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:We, we, we do a lot of work on design systems,
Speaker:so, you know, sort of consultancy, assessing,
Speaker:reviewing designs, um.
Speaker:Documentation, all of that kind of thing.
Speaker:And I think you are absolutely right.
Speaker:People understand that a design system is one of
Speaker:those sort of verticals that can stretch across
Speaker:a number of different products that you might have
Speaker:within your organisation.
Speaker:So it's a sensible and sustainable approach to, to
Speaker:look at your design system and, and for anybody out
Speaker:there who's, who has won.
Speaker:And who's scratching their head as to how to start
Speaker:their accessibility journey will look no further.
Speaker:Get, get your design system, you know, look at it and
Speaker:see what you can do to make it more accessible.
Speaker:So yeah, it's a really fundamental, important
Speaker:part, I would say.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Perfect.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:So, well, I mean that might actually touch
Speaker:on the next part.
Speaker:So from your perspective, what, what's the most pressing
Speaker:challenge, uh, challenges that organisations face when
Speaker:they're trying to implement accessible solutions?
Speaker:And are there any, uh, sort of key misconceptions or barriers
Speaker:that tend to stand out?
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I think there's lots of challenges and
Speaker:barriers aren't there?
Speaker:You know, I'm kind of, I'm immediately taken into
Speaker:the, the mindset of a team, and perhaps the, uh, the
Speaker:management layer and the design and development sort
Speaker:of layer and kind of, you know, it, it, it's, there's
Speaker:a number of challenges.
Speaker:There's resource, there's time, there's, there's
Speaker:budget, there's skills, there's knowledge share.
Speaker:There's people leaving, there's having to
Speaker:train people up.
Speaker:So which one do you pick if you're gonna pick one?
Speaker:But, I think, I think the main one that.
Speaker:Really underpins it.
Speaker:All I would say is time.
Speaker:it, it really does take time to understand.
Speaker:Accessibility risk.
Speaker:It takes time to prioritize how you mitigate that risk.
Speaker:It takes time to put fixes in place.
Speaker:it takes time to figure out how to stop it
Speaker:all happening again.
Speaker:And when time is scarce, accessibility could feel
Speaker:a little bit like a drain.
Speaker:I, I, I get it.
Speaker:you know, something that you're quite reactive.
Speaker:With, and it's always having to catch up and
Speaker:stay on top of bugs.
Speaker:but I think that's part of the, the misconception
Speaker:really that accessibility is hard because it's,
Speaker:you need to, you need a slightly different approach.
Speaker:It, it's really often because organisations follow
Speaker:quite a reactive loop.
Speaker:You know, assessment, fix, assess again, fix again.
Speaker:Uh, and that's not a criticism sometimes.
Speaker:That's simply the place where you have to start.
Speaker:but I, I've, I've walked into, uh, customers that,
Speaker:that we started consultancy with and they just, they, they
Speaker:would say things like, oh, we've just had an assessment
Speaker:done by so and so, but we still haven't finished,
Speaker:uh, fixing the bugs from last year's assessment.
Speaker:And to me it's like.
Speaker:Well, that's, that's the problem.
Speaker:You shouldn't, you shouldn't, maybe repeat.
Speaker:Annual assessments are not the thing that you should
Speaker:be doing because all you're doing is chasing defects.
Speaker:It's, you know, you're just mopping up the leak, not
Speaker:fixing the pipe, you know?
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:So I think there has to be a shift in thinking, and
Speaker:sometimes you have to be quite brave to do that when
Speaker:you've got like loads of things that you need to do.
Speaker:But at TetraLogical , we kind of, we help organisations
Speaker:identify not just sort of what is broken, but why.
Speaker:and the goal is to fix things at source.
Speaker:So the why, and that might be in, as you said, making design
Speaker:systems accessible or writing better internal guidance,
Speaker:documentation, upskilling teams in a way that.
Speaker:Is sustainable and, and, and building a shared
Speaker:knowledge base really.
Speaker:So it, it's, it's just finding the ways to stop
Speaker:accessibility issues happening before they start.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I think the important thing as well is this
Speaker:work doesn't sit on top of your existing processes.
Speaker:It, it, it needs to integrate with them.
Speaker:That's how it, you know, accessibility becomes
Speaker:sustainable and it becomes not an extra job that you
Speaker:have to do, but is part of how things are done.
Speaker:and which is why sustainable is one of
Speaker:our core values really.
Speaker:And that's, I think it can also come down to the
Speaker:certain methodologies, I suppose, when it comes
Speaker:to an agile workplace.
Speaker:I know that there's, there's, there's probably, there's
Speaker:many great agile workplaces out there when it comes to
Speaker:the software development lifecycle and things.
Speaker:But I don't think anyone's truly agile.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Part of that is that that repeating or repetitive
Speaker:cycle, and then when you get things previously it
Speaker:was cyber or security that would be seen as a blocker
Speaker:because you're actually just trying, you're trying to,
Speaker:you're trying to complete that circle and go, I.
Speaker:Beyond that.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:But this is flagged up.
Speaker:So actually you've, you've now got all of this time or
Speaker:this, uh, that you don't actually have this resource
Speaker:as well that you might need to find to, to plug that gap.
Speaker:And then does accessibility become one of those barriers?
Speaker:To use a phrase, yeah.
Speaker:to getting to release, but rightly so.
Speaker:But I guess if you don't even have that within
Speaker:your process and it's not being picked up mm-hmm.
Speaker:Then you're just constantly releasing things that aren't,
Speaker:aren't working for everyone.
Speaker:I, I mean, you've nailed it.
Speaker:Accessibility done wrong is a, is a barrier
Speaker:accessibility done right.
Speaker:Is, is, is, is, is innovation.
Speaker:and, and actually what we find is going into organisations
Speaker:'cause accessibility, stretches across multiple
Speaker:teams, multiple roles, different products.
Speaker:We start unearthing some of the kind of.
Speaker:The product lifecycle, hiccups that organisations
Speaker:might have that they probably didn't even know they had.
Speaker:And that becomes a barrier for us because.
Speaker:There's something within the organisation that they
Speaker:might need to kind of fix before, you know, you can
Speaker:open up the, the, the tax for accessibility, but, you
Speaker:know, to pick up on your Agile theme, I kind of think of it
Speaker:sometimes in a different way.
Speaker:When, when, when we go into a large organisation, and
Speaker:let's say you are starting it really at, at the beginning.
Speaker:Or you might be re-imagining accessibility.
Speaker:My, my kind of agile approach is start with a pilot project,
Speaker:see what works, see what doesn't work, document it, you
Speaker:know, and then start kind of cascading out the things you
Speaker:are really sure do work to other teams and then slowly
Speaker:start kind of like having that snowball effect of change.
Speaker:So it's sort of agile in a different, in a
Speaker:different way, I suppose.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:I mean, we could, we've all, it's constantly trying to
Speaker:innovate and, and use new ways of working, I suppose,
Speaker:and, but I, I, yeah, to, to circle back to what you said
Speaker:about integrating it within the standard procedures or
Speaker:processes, it's a bit like with, again, to use the
Speaker:security as a an example, dev DevOps became DevSecOps
Speaker:because it was integrated within, and I've said it
Speaker:before in previous episodes, that it should be dev
Speaker:accessibility ops, you know, it's part of the operations,
Speaker:but I guess I have been corrected previously on that
Speaker:as well to say actually it shouldn't be within the dev
Speaker:developer operations 'cause it should have actually been done
Speaker:and thought about before that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:yeah, I, I, I, you know, that, that's, that's
Speaker:security accessibility, kind of alignment is
Speaker:often talked about and I think there is definitely
Speaker:a lot in it, but I, I'm, I, I don't know if it's
Speaker:quite right to align them.
Speaker:'cause they're two different things.
Speaker:Security is not as, as human centered in a funny kind
Speaker:of way as, as accessibility and, and you are right.
Speaker:Accessibility needs to happen before designs, you know,
Speaker:it needs to happen when you're kind of imagining it,
Speaker:what a new feature, what might be the most appropriate
Speaker:feature before you even know what that feature's gonna be,
Speaker:before you even know what that product's gonna look like.
Speaker:You need to start thinking about accessibility and,
Speaker:and yeah, there's, I, I feel like, I dunno enough about
Speaker:security, I'll be honest, but I feel like there's more
Speaker:of a focus on, on the human aspect with accessibility.
Speaker:So while there is an alignment there, I think we
Speaker:need to be careful that we don't overdo it, because.
Speaker:One will get overshadowed by the other potentially.
Speaker:And one, one is far more technical than the other,
Speaker:I would say as well.
Speaker:Yeah, accessibility is more technical.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Perfect.
Speaker:Well, So in talks with experts and advocates
Speaker:in, in, in the field, I
Speaker:always hear TetraLogical as being like a standout, you
Speaker:know, the, someone actually said that the po the last
Speaker:episode, which was for GAD was the Premier League of
Speaker:accessibility, but I think that I've heard that about
Speaker:TetraLogical before as well, so it's amazing to hear,
Speaker:you know, and it's, it's clear that the dedication
Speaker:there to providing a real solution, uh, for complex
Speaker:and technical accessibility barriers as well as others.
Speaker:So I just wondered if.
Speaker:Well, I mean, you kind of touched on it earlier anyway,
Speaker:to say that it needed a, a, you know, a refresh.
Speaker:But was that always the intention to become
Speaker:that leading force?
Speaker:And, and what's your view on, on Tetralogicals, uh, approach
Speaker:to accessibility beyond the initial or ongoing partnership
Speaker:with, uh, with consultancies?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean that's very kind of you to
Speaker:say and I'm blushing.
Speaker:But actually it's, it's the team that make TetraLogical.
Speaker:They are each and every one of them I learn from every day.
Speaker:I'm incredibly grateful having been the only
Speaker:accessibility specialist and many in organisations
Speaker:sort of working alongside these fabulous people.
Speaker:They are amazing.
Speaker:Yeah, so, what was our intention?
Speaker:So our intention has always been to make accessibility
Speaker:something that's practical and sustainable and, and rooted
Speaker:in people's experiences.
Speaker:I don't think we set out to be a, a leading sort of force
Speaker:or primarily, in, in any way.
Speaker:But we, we did set out with the intention to help
Speaker:organisations do accessibility
Speaker:well, we didn't, we didn't like the compliance
Speaker:strategy that lots of other accessibility companies
Speaker:seem to be some supporting one way or another.
Speaker:So yeah, doing accessibility well that's
Speaker:really what drives us.
Speaker:So when it comes to working with our customers
Speaker:partnerships, I would say our intention is to not
Speaker:work with you forever.
Speaker:For us, a successful partnership is one where
Speaker:we gradually become less needed, less depended
Speaker:on, because accessibility becomes more comfortable,
Speaker:the team becomes more expert.
Speaker:It becomes embedded in how, in ways that they work.
Speaker:And that's why we focus, like everything we do and,
Speaker:you know, even from a sales call, right from the start
Speaker:is about fixing things.
Speaker:You know, like focusing on, focusing on the
Speaker:long-term solution.
Speaker:You know, every exchange we have with, with every email
Speaker:and report or, or meeting as an opportunity to, to
Speaker:knowledge share, mentor, answer questions, help put
Speaker:in the right processes.
Speaker:That is, that is fundamentally what we're there to do.
Speaker:So, I mean, ultimately, yeah, the goal is accessibility
Speaker:has, has to outlive, you know, a project or a consultant
Speaker:bringing accessibility into the project.
Speaker:It has to be something that an organisation or a team
Speaker:owns, you know, part of its culture and not just
Speaker:that, that compliance piece.
Speaker:So, you know, whether.
Speaker:You're at the start of your journey with accessibility
Speaker:or partway through it, we're, we're quite adept
Speaker:at kind of figuring out the landscape and working on
Speaker:ways, original ways to try and kind of support you do that.
Speaker:Yeah, so yeah, we wanna do ourselves out of business
Speaker:is the short answer.
Speaker:I mean well, that's the thing, I think there are a few
Speaker:people that I've spoken to, candidates that are applying
Speaker:for jobs where they've said, you know, I kind of,
Speaker:what you want to do is make yourself redundant.
Speaker:You know, you're no longer needed, but I just, it then
Speaker:it opens the question of the definition of done, and then
Speaker:you're like, well actually accessibility's never done
Speaker:so.
Speaker:I get That's, yeah, I, I mean that, that, that's
Speaker:the, that's the point.
Speaker:I mean, we've worked with organisations where they
Speaker:haven't been doing very much, so we've been doing an awful
Speaker:lot and we gradually hand things over and actually
Speaker:we do co-create services with, with our customers
Speaker:depending on what they need.
Speaker:And one of our services is, is, sorry, uh,
Speaker:recruitment support.
Speaker:But what we don't, there will be a time when one of our
Speaker:recommendations might be, we think, we think you should
Speaker:recruit somebody in, and we don't really think you should
Speaker:you know, we we're doing stuff which somebody could do in
Speaker:a role, so we, we will help you, you know, if you, if
Speaker:you want to get somebody in.
Speaker:So there, there have been times when we've absolutely
Speaker:done that and, and our definition of done might
Speaker:be we started coming in and doing all the things.
Speaker:We're doing less of the things the team is doing,
Speaker:all the things that they can, and then we're just there
Speaker:on the sidelines for those particularly gnarly issues
Speaker:or consultancy pieces or the complex bits, or there for
Speaker:the bits that just simply don't fit into, you know,
Speaker:people's everyday work.
Speaker:Uh, so we very much think of ourselves as being an
Speaker:extension of your team there when you need it.
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it goes beyond that then, doesn't it?
Speaker:I think that's, I've heard it from a few places that
Speaker:offer services and then it's, it's nice to have
Speaker:a sideline support, so if anything were to creep
Speaker:up, but it's, you know, you've gotten people to, uh
Speaker:a better state, I suppose, or a slightly more mature sort
Speaker:of, uh, way of working and then, yeah, like you say, if
Speaker:something was to crop up as it does every now and then and
Speaker:then they've got that, they've got you there in the wings.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:Perfect.
Speaker:So right here we go.
Speaker:The elephant in the room is the European Accessibility
Speaker:Act, which, in, on my script or question here
Speaker:says is coming this June, but actually this episode
Speaker:is hopefully going to be released the day before the
Speaker:deadline, which is the 28th.
Speaker:So, hard to believe it's just a month away now.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:but how do you envisage things going, uh, with the
Speaker:adoption and, and compliance with the regulations and, um.
Speaker:I mean the, yeah, the question was about if there's gonna
Speaker:be any negative impact about anything, uh, something this
Speaker:monumental being rolled out.
Speaker:But I suppose it's, it's like how, it's
Speaker:hard to say, isn't it?
Speaker:But do, do you think there's gonna be a
Speaker:huge shift beyond this?
Speaker:I'm just gonna crack out my crystal ball.
Speaker:Um mm-hmm.
Speaker:Giving me nothing.
Speaker:Well, no, it's hard to say.
Speaker:I mean, I, I loved your phrasing earlier.
Speaker:DEE day.
Speaker:DEAA day.
Speaker:D-Day, beautifully.
Speaker:so we're on D-Day plus one month.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Well, let's see.
Speaker:So one thing that we've noticed is there has been
Speaker:an uptick in organisations requesting, an EAA
Speaker:assessment, you know, ahead of the deadline and, and
Speaker:very much the questions are, can you give us an
Speaker:assessment before June?
Speaker:Now these questions have been coming in for the last
Speaker:kind of year and they, they see they're still coming in.
Speaker:Uh, so I think there's definitely a mindset out there
Speaker:that, you know, an assessment is, is the way to go.
Speaker:And your question about is there a potential negative
Speaker:impact is an interesting one because I wouldn't
Speaker:say that any move towards making products and
Speaker:services more accessible is negative in itself
Speaker:however, I do think there, there is a risk, and it's
Speaker:something that we've seen before with changes in
Speaker:legislation there's always a little bit of a, a, a
Speaker:panic and a rush of feet.
Speaker:you know, and, and my concern is always when accessibility
Speaker:is driven purely by kind of.
Speaker:Uh, the motivation of compliance with, with, with,
Speaker:with the law, it can kind of become a little bit of
Speaker:a tick box exercise and unfortunately that, that,
Speaker:that can be when things fall apart, because accessibility
Speaker:isn't just a legal or technical issue, as we've
Speaker:said, it's, it's a human one.
Speaker:So right now we're seeing a strong focus on
Speaker:assessments and I get it, it's the right thing to do.
Speaker:You wanna wanna get your house in order.
Speaker:But while they're valuable, it, it, it is only one
Speaker:part of the puzzle.
Speaker:Because if you want meaningful lasting change, it comes
Speaker:from really changing your ways and, and how you do
Speaker:accessibility in, in the team from strategy through
Speaker:to design and development
Speaker:and equally technology and law matter, but if people aren't
Speaker:the priority, you can end up with the products that is
Speaker:accessible and but frustrating and unusable for people.
Speaker:So the one thing that we're finding quite interesting.
Speaker:There's, there's a blog post that my colleague Léonie
Speaker:Watson wrote on the EAA and it's a really good practical
Speaker:breakdown of everything.
Speaker:And one thing that, that she's flagged is the, that,
Speaker:uh, the, the EAA actually has another component to it.
Speaker:The EM 1 7 1 6 1 designed for all, we'll just call it
Speaker:designed for all for ease.
Speaker:Uh.
Speaker:So while the EAA sets out, a set of technical
Speaker:requirements designed for all is a framework for
Speaker:embedding accessibility into organisational
Speaker:strategy and practice
Speaker:so you see where I'm going here?
Speaker:You've got two sides of one coin.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:You need to assess your risk through an assessment.
Speaker:Start fixing things, start using that assessment as a way
Speaker:to fix why is this happening, not just where it's happening.
Speaker:But you need to also be looking at your processes.
Speaker:And I think design for all is something that
Speaker:we need to be talking about a little bit more.
Speaker:And it's certainly something that we are looking at more
Speaker:as well because it's, the EAA isn't just all about the 28th
Speaker:of June, it's here to stay.
Speaker:So, we need to make sure that accessibility in your product
Speaker:is here to stay as well.
Speaker:Yes, definitely.
Speaker:I mean, that's the problem.
Speaker:I think I've seen another side of, of that when trying
Speaker:to work with new clients and a lot of my role has become
Speaker:advocacy, uh, just through the passion for the space as well,
Speaker:but also to ensure that people understand that it's important
Speaker:to hire people with these skills in accessibility and um
Speaker:unfortunately, a lot of the conversation is, well, we're
Speaker:gonna make sure that we've got everything in order by
Speaker:that deadline because that's gonna be retrospective, so we,
Speaker:we've got too many releases to do anything about it
Speaker:right now, but come back to us on the 28th of June and
Speaker:then we'll get someone in to help us in moving forward.
Speaker:Not, not the right mindset.
Speaker:I'm sure you've heard the same, but it's,
Speaker:it's very frustrating.
Speaker:But I think that that is a, a word that I've been
Speaker:hearing a lot lately, which is frustrating.
Speaker:'cause even when a company does finally get their,
Speaker:ducks in a row almost and hire someone to come
Speaker:in and help them, or engages with a consultancy
Speaker:like TetraLogical, um
Speaker:it's the initial frustration.
Speaker:Why wasn't this just done correctly in the first place?
Speaker:You know, I think that that's just something that you have
Speaker:to become accustomed to when you work in accessibility,
Speaker:is that it is frustrating.
Speaker:And then I think that Craig, who's now, uh, a colleague
Speaker:of, of yours and, and working at TetraLogical,
Speaker:mentioned about resilience.
Speaker:And you have to be resilient to work in this space.
Speaker:But I think it.
Speaker:In that sense, absolutely.
Speaker:You have to deal with that frustration and go, okay,
Speaker:we're back to square one.
Speaker:If you've moved to a new company or a new
Speaker:client or customer.
Speaker:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:I don't think there's any point beating ourselves
Speaker:up to say, why haven't we done this before?
Speaker:Already?
Speaker:The question should be, we now, now know we need
Speaker:to do this, how can we do this in the most efficient
Speaker:and effective way that doesn't break our teams?
Speaker:And Craig's really right, it is about resilience.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:But it, you know, it, it's, it's about breaking things
Speaker:down and, and taking those, those initial first steps
Speaker:really to getting it done.
Speaker:Just to circle back on one of the other points you
Speaker:made about the assessments that people are requesting
Speaker:and trying to get a feel of sort of where they are in
Speaker:their current, sort of mid, well before they even start
Speaker:on a maturity model, but understanding the state of
Speaker:things as they are from an accessibility perspective.
Speaker:I think there's the other flip side that audit
Speaker:or assessment doesn't necessarily do too much other
Speaker:than just tell you what, where you're going wrong.
Speaker:And I think that's, that's a negative view on a lot
Speaker:of consultancies if they're trying to give you audit upon
Speaker:audit, it's what, what else are you gonna do to actually,
Speaker:you know, like go beyond that
Speaker:and just rather than tell me what's going wrong?
Speaker:So, I've long held the belief that an assessment or an
Speaker:audit, whatever you choose to call it, is not just a list
Speaker:of accessibility defects.
Speaker:It's actually, if you scratch the surface, it's a map
Speaker:towards where, you know, a lot of these issues arise.
Speaker:So really just do a little bit of, you know,
Speaker:look at, look at what's what, what, what, what's
Speaker:failing and what's passing.
Speaker:And depending on, on you and your context and your
Speaker:team and your organisation, you'll start to see patterns.
Speaker:The patterns might be, do you know what it's, a lot
Speaker:of, a lot of stuff that's wrong with our site is
Speaker:around content editorial.
Speaker:It's, uh, it's, you know, the link text is not great.
Speaker:The alt text is not great.
Speaker:Uh, the heading structure's not great.
Speaker:And then actually you go, hang on a minute that's
Speaker:all done by our content editors using our CMS.
Speaker:Is there a problem with our CMS?
Speaker:Do we need to fix the CMS?
Speaker:Is there a problem with our, training for
Speaker:our content editors?
Speaker:Is there guidance we need to give them?
Speaker:Equally you might look at your assessment and go, hang on
Speaker:a minute, we can fix some of the really complex issues by
Speaker:fixing our components in our design system or in storybook.
Speaker:So an assessment is so much more than a bug list and
Speaker:there is a blog post in my head about this, it's been
Speaker:swirling around for many a year that I need to write.
Speaker:So, and you know, and then you touched upon kind
Speaker:of repeat assessments.
Speaker:There is a time and a place and an appropriate
Speaker:time and again, that comes down to context.
Speaker:Uh, if you're in that cycle of getting repeat assessments
Speaker:and you haven't caught up with the bugs from last
Speaker:year, then maybe you need to have a look at things
Speaker:and perhaps consider putting resource into different areas.
Speaker:However, it might be that you want a very light
Speaker:touch assessment simply to flag what passes and fails
Speaker:so you can update your accessibility conformance
Speaker:report once a year.
Speaker:So there, there's, there's assessments are, I think
Speaker:really good, but perhaps what we're not all doing
Speaker:really well is, is taking the findings from them and,
Speaker:and applying them in the best way that we possibly could.
Speaker:Yeah, no, perfect.
Speaker:And sorry to put you on the spot with that as
Speaker:well, but it's, uh, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker:So thank you.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:So, do you have any advice that you could give to
Speaker:advocates or professionals that are working within
Speaker:smaller companies who don't actually have that dreaded
Speaker:word, the budget or, they're trying to bring in more
Speaker:expertise or consultancy so they can't do that, but how
Speaker:can someone just sort of make an improvement without
Speaker:budget or sign off or buy in?
Speaker:Yeah, this is, this is a question that's really
Speaker:close to my heart because I'm very keenly aware that
Speaker:you know, you can't get a consultancy and sometimes you
Speaker:don't really have a budget to do your website, right?
Speaker:So just, and, and, and it's scary to think, lordy,
Speaker:you know, there's all this stuff and I've got to get
Speaker:my head around that as well.
Speaker:Um, one of our principles is inclusion.
Speaker:And that does mean, you know, trying to reach as
Speaker:many people who are on the side of, of delivering
Speaker:websites as possible.
Speaker:So my advice is, you, you, you can do this.
Speaker:You don't need to have a consultancy.
Speaker:Um and it start anywhere, uh, start small.
Speaker:Just remember, you don't need to fix everything
Speaker:everywhere, all at once
Speaker:the most important thing is really taking that first step.
Speaker:And the first step can be really small, but those first
Speaker:steps can be very important.
Speaker:So it might be just starting to read up
Speaker:about accessibility.
Speaker:Or having a conversation with somebody in your
Speaker:team, uh, or even somebody, uh, outside your team,
Speaker:getting yourself a mentor.
Speaker:I really fundamentally, fully recommend, there's
Speaker:lots of people who can do it.
Speaker:I, I do mentoring as well, and just starting to have
Speaker:those conversations, 'cause I find that there's always
Speaker:somebody somewhere who's done this before, has a strong
Speaker:motivation to do it and it's, and, and it's about teaming up
Speaker:and kind of, you know, making, building those relationships.
Speaker:So my, my advice for you is if you are sort of looking
Speaker:to make that first step and don't know where to do it, we,
Speaker:we've put together a, a a six day newsletter specifically
Speaker:with small organisations, sole traders in mind called
Speaker:accessibility unlocks.
Speaker:And, uh, it, it, as the name suggests, it's over six days
Speaker:and you get a, a nugget of learning in each each day to
Speaker:just dips you in a little bit
Speaker:so, it focuses on a different theme each day,
Speaker:so, who is accessibility for?
Speaker:How is it measured?
Speaker:How is it tested?
Speaker:What role does each person play?
Speaker:Each day, we include kind of, links to resources,
Speaker:videos, practical prompts, things to make you think and
Speaker:also quotes from the team.
Speaker:I love my team, so I have to put quotes from the team
Speaker:and then by the end of the series, you, you, you get a
Speaker:simple downloadable roadmap, which you can then kind of
Speaker:decant all your thoughts into, and that roadmap is that small
Speaker:step and that roadmap can be really simple it could be
Speaker:kind of, I'm going to start, I'm gonna sign up to this web
Speaker:a newsletter and read that every day, every, every week
Speaker:I'm gonna go and read this book through to, or I'm gonna
Speaker:go and have a conversation with my boss and I'm gonna
Speaker:put together a business case, or I'm going to see if I
Speaker:can find any free training resources for my team.
Speaker:It can be as small or as big as you like, and the other
Speaker:thing I think with, with that, those kind of little
Speaker:roadmaps is don't overdo it.
Speaker:You know, just put in things which are achievable and
Speaker:then you can update it and you can put other things in.
Speaker:So it's just making that first step really.
Speaker:And honestly it's far better to begin with something
Speaker:than wait for that perfect moment to do everything,
Speaker:which, which doesn't really generally happen.
Speaker:Yeah, I was gonna say, spoiler alert there,
Speaker:'cause I'm actually on day five of the, uh.
Speaker:The sixth later I was like, oh, now I know what's coming.
Speaker:But, it's quite, I shouldn't have said actually about
Speaker:the, uh, last bit at the end.
Speaker:Well, I, I'll, I'll act surprised when it
Speaker:comes through tomorrow.
Speaker:The, the, there's another, I mean, a huge amount of
Speaker:discussion, uh, with people that I've speak, been speaking
Speaker:to recently has been about the education piece, and
Speaker:that is gonna make everyone's lives in the future a lot
Speaker:better if we can implement inductions when people are
Speaker:joining companies to have a section on accessibility,
Speaker:which Heather Hepburn's doing at Skyscanner,
Speaker:which is phenomenal.
Speaker:They're also doing a lot of support, uh, modules at
Speaker:universities, within the sort of technical, uh, or
Speaker:STEM subjects just to ensure that there is a module or,
Speaker:or some mention of, of, uh, disability awareness or
Speaker:digital accessibility because
Speaker:even just having that small nugget and then that's just
Speaker:gonna grow exponentially, you would hope, you
Speaker:know, it's, it's, it took one thing for me to go.
Speaker:Oh my God, this is incredible and this really needs to
Speaker:happen and then you will get people like that, I mean,
Speaker:I'm a recruiter, you know, so people would be like, oh,
Speaker:you don't care about anyone.
Speaker:You just wanna bill but actually there, there are,
Speaker:you know, regardless of the walk of life or what
Speaker:work you do, there is so much you can do and there's
Speaker:so much free resources.
Speaker:Well, so very, you know, that's, hugely, valuable
Speaker:and, generous of TetraLogical to put that together.
Speaker:I'm really enjoying it as well and I, yeah, definitely
Speaker:encourage everyone to, to seek that out and I'll
Speaker:try and link to it on the episode as well, but it's, um
Speaker:there are some great resources out there, and I agree.
Speaker:There are some resources.
Speaker:You, you gotta pick the right ones, but there are
Speaker:some amazing resources.
Speaker:It's, there's almost, you're spoilt for choice.
Speaker:But yeah, I think a lot of, a lot of organisations and
Speaker:individuals are incredibly generous with their knowledge
Speaker:and their time and, and put it out there, so go consume it.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Perfect.
Speaker:Well, so that actually brings me to final thoughts.
Speaker:So it's, it's over to you, Henny.
Speaker:If there's anything you want to share or plug or if
Speaker:there's any, uh, upcoming events or initiatives,
Speaker:personal projects, anything that you'd like
Speaker:to discuss, then feel free.
Speaker:Oh, thank you.
Speaker:I suppose, I suppose my final thought is it's not overly
Speaker:original, uh, breaking our principle here, but, we as
Speaker:an organisation and myself, you know, as an individual,
Speaker:I've been thinking a lot about the intersection of
Speaker:AI and accessibility and in particular ethics within it
Speaker:you know, how can we use it to enhance what we do
Speaker:without it being unethical.
Speaker:You know, what are the risks of using ai?
Speaker:What are the risks of not using ai?
Speaker:You know, we have customers who say, we need you
Speaker:to guarantee you're not using ai, and we fully,
Speaker:fully respect that.
Speaker:So we are thinking quite heavily about that because
Speaker:of course there's, there's, you know, well documented and
Speaker:well discussed bias within ai
Speaker:um against, uh, not just people with disabilities,
Speaker:but, but all areas of life.
Speaker:Uh, and that is a problem and it's definitely a problem in
Speaker:terms of people relying on AI to give them answers to
Speaker:questions, and sort of the energy and and usage of ai.
Speaker:So, yeah, that, that's something that we've
Speaker:been looking into a lot as an organisation.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:And I think, uh, my, my kind of interest in it was,
Speaker:was great actually bringing it back to education.
Speaker:So together with our, our friends at Open Inclusion who
Speaker:do some phenomenal work around research, into accessibility,
Speaker:et cetera, they're doing, uh, supporting Sussex.
Speaker:Uh, university in Guildford on a, an AI for Digital
Speaker:Media Inclusion course.
Speaker:It's a doctorate course and I was fortunate enough
Speaker:to go along and do a guest lecture, and I, I can't tell
Speaker:you how happy I am to see a course like that out there,
Speaker:aI for Digital Media and Inclusion, I mean, that's got
Speaker:all the words, all the words that I would like to see.
Speaker:So, I mean, the fact that that
Speaker:even exist is a win.
Speaker:But I'm, I'm really excited to see what, what some of the
Speaker:graduates come out with, with that and, and to see that
Speaker:it's recognized that, you know, as part of a doctorate,
Speaker:which is phenomenal.
Speaker:So yeah, that would be my final thought.
Speaker:Amazing, more of that.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:And I'm sure we will start to see more and more of it
Speaker:and I hope that the EAA does actually provide a bit
Speaker:more of a, uh, appetite.
Speaker:We talk about, the accessibility maturity model.
Speaker:I think that it's, it's also just building on that,
Speaker:that appetite for it, you know, and understanding
Speaker:that there's, Yeah.
Speaker:Beyond the right thing to do.
Speaker:There is a, there is a business case there.
Speaker:I. There is, you know, if you want to be that, that
Speaker:insensitive and just talk about the business case or
Speaker:the return on investment, then it, that exists
Speaker:too, so there's actually really no reason people
Speaker:shouldn't be focusing on it.
Speaker:So yeah, it's, it's a win-win all round.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Well, thank you so much, Henny, all of
Speaker:that, all of your time.
Speaker:I've been really, really looking forward
Speaker:to this, uh, episode and this chat with you.
Speaker:So, I'm, I'm really grateful for all of what you're doing
Speaker:and, and for your time today.
Speaker:So thank you very, very much, and I'm sure we'll talk
Speaker:again in the near future.
Speaker:Thank you so much for having me, Joe.
Speaker:It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker:You're welcome.
