Global Accessibility Awareness Day 2025 and beyond
🎙️ GAAD 2025 Special: 10 Accessibility Leaders, 1 Powerful Conversation
To celebrate Global Accessibility Awareness Day 2025, host Joe James brings together an incredible panel of accessibility leaders from previous episodes of The Digital Accessibility Podcast for an unmissable group conversation.
Guests from eBay, Skyscanner, Tetralogical, Nomensa, Testlio, Stepstone Group, CurbCutOS, and more share practical insights, inspiring stories, and candid reflections across three core themes:
- How innovation and AI are reshaping accessibility tools and workflows
- What true leadership and culture shift looks like in organisations embracing accessibility
- The power of collaboration, community, and continuous learning in driving change
- Whether you’re just starting out in accessibility or you're leading a programme yourself, this energising episode is packed with wisdom, hope, and honesty from the forefront of digital inclusion.
Featuring:
Ronny Hendricks (Nomensa), Craig Abbott (Tetralogical), Helen Burge (Testlio), Paul Van Workum (Abra), Mark Lapole (eBay), Mimouna Mahdaoui (Stepstone Group), Grant Broome (Access Inc.), Heather Hepburn (Skyscanner) and Jeremy Grandstaff (CurbCutOS)
Tune in for insights, laughter, and a reminder that accessibility is not only possible — it's happening, and together, we’re making progress.
#GAAD2025 #Accessibility #Inclusion #DigitalInclusion #A11y #TechForGood
Transcript
Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.
Speaker:If you're looking to learn more about the field of
Speaker:accessibility, how to implement it within your role
Speaker:or your company, or to get advice on where to start or
Speaker:see how others have navigated complex issues that you may
Speaker:find along the way, then you're in the right place.
Speaker:I'm honored to be able to share these insightful
Speaker:chats with thought leaders, advocates, and practitioners
Speaker:of digital accessibility throughout this podcast,
Speaker:and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.
Speaker:As always, thank you so much for listening and I
Speaker:hope you enjoy the chat.
Speaker:Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast in
Speaker:honour of Global Accessibility Awareness Day 2025.
Speaker:We have an extra special episode where I'm joined by
Speaker:many of the previous guests of the podcast all on one call.
Speaker:We can have some back and forth discussions and share
Speaker:some positive results and news that we're seeing in
Speaker:the accessibility space.
Speaker:So, without further ado, I'd like to introduce
Speaker:our speakers, Ronny Hendricks, Head of
Speaker:Accessibility at Nomensa.
Speaker:Craig Abbott, Principal Accessibility Consultant
Speaker:at Tetralogical.
Speaker:Helen Burge, Director of Accessibility at Testlio.
Speaker:Paul Van Work Founder and Consultant at Abra
Speaker:and the Appt Foundation.
Speaker:Mark Lapole, Director of Accessibility at eBay.
Speaker:Mimouna Mahdaoui, Senior Manager at Stepstone Group.
Speaker:Grant Broome, Founder and Principal Accessibility
Speaker:Consultant of Access Inc. Heather Hepburn, Head of
Speaker:Accessibility at SkyScanner.
Speaker:And last, by, by no means least, Jeremy
Speaker:Grandstaff, VP of Business Development at CurbCutOS.
Speaker:I'm also joined by one of my colleagues and PCR Digital's
Speaker:Operations Manager Joyce, who will help to spotlight our
Speaker:speakers into their groups.
Speaker:So let's jump in.
Speaker:We're gonna start with some group discussions, , where
Speaker:I've tried to group our guests based on their expertise
Speaker:and industry background.
Speaker:Each group will discuss a targeted question.
Speaker:You'll each have about two minutes to talk, so
Speaker:give people a break from me, followed by a brief,
Speaker:sort of open discussion if anyone wants to jump in.
Speaker:So first off, we are going to our group, which
Speaker:is Helen Burge, Paul Van Work and Mark Lapole.
Speaker:I'd like to know, , if any what exciting innovations in
Speaker:technology or design, have made digital experiences more
Speaker:accessible in recent years?
Speaker:We are hearing a lot about AI and automation recently,
Speaker:but is there anything else that's been sort of brought
Speaker:to the forefront of design and tech that's pushing
Speaker:us naturally towards more accessible and inclusive
Speaker:products and services?
Speaker:Who's happy to, to, to go first on the question.
Speaker:I'll go, I'll go first.
Speaker:, Yeah.
Speaker:Spiel a bit.
Speaker:Ramble a bit.
Speaker:And it's funny, you, you mentioned AI and
Speaker:automation because, and then you said, other than
Speaker:that, sort of, what else?
Speaker:But that's all that's in my mind.
Speaker:Like, it's just so recency bias maybe, but like, I don't
Speaker:know that even two years ago we'd be thinking about
Speaker:summarising spreadsheets and, , presentations to
Speaker:make things more efficient for us, , delivering that,
Speaker:that sort of content.
Speaker:And so when we think about
Speaker:innovations, maybe need some air quotes a bit, but, , how
Speaker:we use this technology to help designers, developers,
Speaker:testers, maybe even processes overall really comes to mind.
Speaker:So I don't, it's a bit of a mashup of stuff in
Speaker:my head at the moment because we're, we're really
Speaker:sprinting toward June 28th for EAA, which some of your
Speaker:listeners may know about this little thing coming about.
Speaker:So, but when I think about tactical things that AI
Speaker:might be able to help with, I think about design and
Speaker:how, at least currently or recent years, we've really
Speaker:been thinking about how to raise awareness among our
Speaker:designers who maybe have a bit of a knowledge gap.
Speaker:So how do we leverage technology and tooling
Speaker:and integrate or inject accessibility into
Speaker:their worlds of working?
Speaker:How do we do that for our developers with maybe linting
Speaker:or recognising potential syntax errors or potential
Speaker:accessibility issues with how we're writing code.
Speaker:So that the code quality and consistency is better.
Speaker:But back on the design bit, how do we, can we leverage
Speaker:any of this to identify,
Speaker:and annotate for accessibility within Figma
Speaker:or other design tools?
Speaker:How do we use the technology to call out what those
Speaker:attributes or values should be so that that education
Speaker:continues to happen, but also informs our developers
Speaker:as they're building things, because we're still people for
Speaker:the moment, at least building these things and creating
Speaker:our sites and experiences.
Speaker:We don't know how much longer that may be.
Speaker:But then when it comes to testing, how do we leverage
Speaker:tooling and or AI to go in and test and simulate
Speaker:actual usage of a site?
Speaker:There's already a lot of things out there available
Speaker:that can do some simulating or emulating of keyboard
Speaker:behavior, activating controls, all the things that we as
Speaker:practitioners, , check for.
Speaker:But the next level of that is how does that AI actually
Speaker:identify those issues and fix them, and then retest.
Speaker:Fix, learn, fix, learn.
Speaker:And then ultimately, how do those tools start
Speaker:to talk to one another?
Speaker:If we call them agents and how do they, how do
Speaker:they then communicate?
Speaker:But I don't know, being a bit of an old in this industry,
Speaker:we still need the human bit of this at the moment
Speaker:at least doing that validation,
Speaker:understanding that output.
Speaker:Like how are we checking things to see that that
Speaker:output is actually valid?
Speaker:What gets rendered to the screen?
Speaker:How might these AI learn about the actual platform that we're
Speaker:intending to, , publish to?
Speaker:So a web interface slightly different
Speaker:from an iOS interface and Android interface.
Speaker:Whatever devices come out in the future, whatever
Speaker:platforms may emerge.
Speaker:How do we ensure that output is, is valid for
Speaker:those devices in that, in those environments?
Speaker:But the biggest thing in the head, in my head right
Speaker:now is the EAA stuff.
Speaker:So at a process level, which might sound a bit boring.
Speaker:We're still a small team, so how do we govern all of the
Speaker:policies and processes that we're putting in place so
Speaker:that we can sustain a more accessible eBay, at least in
Speaker:this current world of mine.
Speaker:But whatever company you end up working with, how do
Speaker:we, how do we ensure those workflows and the things
Speaker:that we hopefully injected along the way are, are being
Speaker:followed and not creating obstacles for other teams or
Speaker:conflicts, along the way.
Speaker:So that's my bit of ramble a bit.
Speaker:Just, just trying to figure out where, where we fit
Speaker:into existing workflows, existing tooling, , how do
Speaker:we leverage technology to do that more efficiently?
Speaker:, Lighten the load on the humans a bit, but not so much that
Speaker:we're eliminated, but like that sort of scary side of ai.
Speaker:Those are some things that come to mind for me.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Leveraging what we've already, already have and
Speaker:will hopefully continue to be a part of the whole process.
Speaker:It's, , yeah, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker:Paul, can I come to you next at all?
Speaker:Have you got, anything to, do you agree entirely or have you
Speaker:got anything else that you'd like to add with different
Speaker:sort of tech and innovation?
Speaker:Yeah, I can add the, yeah.
Speaker:For apps it's , sometimes a little bit different.
Speaker:'cause where you see that, for example, for, , for websites,
Speaker:you have the ACT rules.
Speaker:And you have like techniques, how to fix things, and you
Speaker:have failures and you have test scripts, and if you
Speaker:feed AI debt information, you can like automate things.
Speaker:But for apps, there's, there's no such thing yet.
Speaker:So what we see is that there's a, let's say apps
Speaker:are a few years behind, , and basically speeding up
Speaker:towards the same point.
Speaker:So it's going way faster, but also, , that's way challenger,
Speaker:way more challenging.
Speaker:So I prepared this meeting and I was thinking about
Speaker:like, okay, what's, what's innovation like?
Speaker:But for apps it's basically like getting those act rules,
Speaker:getting those techniques, getting those failures ready
Speaker:so that you all have the same way of doing things.
Speaker:And what I see is that, of course, like, like also the
Speaker:work of the annual with its 365 days of iOS accessibility.
Speaker:, The work that we did with the, with the abt.org
Speaker:platform, but also the work currently done with the
Speaker:mobile task force where we're gonna, where we are
Speaker:interpreting the guidelines for mobile, we'll make sure
Speaker:that across the world we are using the same, yeah, the
Speaker:same guidelines, let's say.
Speaker:And with apps, I see so many different ways of testing
Speaker:apps that it's not really an equal or like yeah, it's
Speaker:not really level playing field at this moment.
Speaker:So that's, that's something.
Speaker:So you need to have more knowledge.
Speaker:That's the first, , what I see the biggest challenge for,
Speaker:let's say bigger companies, is the lack of experience.
Speaker:So basically, if you have, I always use the example,
Speaker:you have 100 developers, let's say, let's say in a
Speaker:magical way, you're able to educate them and like let
Speaker:them use the process and let that, you're basically
Speaker:amazing at accessibility.
Speaker:After three months, there are 10, 10 new people.
Speaker:And those 10 new people, they never heard about
Speaker:accessibility because they don't learn it, learn it at
Speaker:schools, and that there are other companies, they didn't.
Speaker:So what you see now is that it's, it's shifting and it's
Speaker:like the bigger companies are, let's say, speeding up
Speaker:and doing trainings and, but it's, it's some years behind
Speaker:what we see on websites.
Speaker:, And what I see that with websites you can just
Speaker:like, yeah, there a lot of free tooling available
Speaker:and also paid tooling that have, has even more,
Speaker:, integrations possible with, with basically for apps.
Speaker:It's just coming.
Speaker:There's no way of automating app accessibility
Speaker:testing at this moment.
Speaker:So what, yeah, we see that that's a big challenge
Speaker:because if you are not able to, , trigger your developers,
Speaker:testers, designers at the very fundamental level,
Speaker:if they add something that they check it themselves on
Speaker:some the few basic points.
Speaker:If you can't do that, there's no feedback loop.
Speaker:The feedback loop is like three months later
Speaker:doing a big audit.
Speaker:So it's, it's hard to learn if you don't get feedback.
Speaker:It's hard to create awareness or to read into things if
Speaker:you don't get that trigger.
Speaker:And that's something that the currently with
Speaker:appsis , getting there.
Speaker:, But what you see is that because with websites
Speaker:it's much easier.
Speaker:It's, it's easier to create the knowledge and
Speaker:awareness in your teams.
Speaker:And with apps, that's the biggest challenge.
Speaker:So to summarise, more knowledge, more
Speaker:experience, and more tooling will be needed.
Speaker:And, , I think in the coming years, apps will catch up
Speaker:because it, it'll become more and more important.
Speaker:, Because apps, let's say the bigger companies have
Speaker:a website and an app, most people are using the
Speaker:app and not the website.
Speaker:So for.
Speaker:Big enterprise companies, the app is more important than
Speaker:the website, , quite often.
Speaker:, So it'll speed up at governments there's, , more
Speaker:websites and apps, and it'll change into more apps, , at
Speaker:the big enterprises.
Speaker:So, , the European Accessibility Act is, , moving
Speaker:the market in the right, I think in the right way, at
Speaker:least for, for us at Abra.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And that's great.
Speaker:I mean, you, we know you're doing so much great work
Speaker:in that space as well, in terms of trying to elevate
Speaker:that, that training and education on the mobile
Speaker:side of accessibility as well as the web
Speaker:so yeah, appreciate all you're doing and, yeah,
Speaker:we can all definitely learn more and, and hopefully
Speaker:it will catch up and, and be in a similar sort of
Speaker:position in the near future.
Speaker:So, Helen, I'm gonna come to you now, if you don't mind.
Speaker:Could, yeah, could we hear about sort of any,
Speaker:any positives that you've got in, in that sort of
Speaker:tech and innovation space?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:One thing that I think has been fantastic for
Speaker:the screen reader uses is the AI embedded inside.
Speaker:So things like being able to use object character
Speaker:recognition to read something where someone
Speaker:hasn't put alternative text.
Speaker:I do tell my team they have to disable that for
Speaker:testing because we're not allowed to make
Speaker:excuses for the developer.
Speaker:But it's great for the user.
Speaker:It does mean, I had in previous role a blind boss
Speaker:and I could email him a receipt without having to
Speaker:transcribe it 'cause he could use the OCR to read it, which
Speaker:did make me feel a bit lazy and cheeky.
Speaker:I did give him a synopsis, but he wanted to see all the,
Speaker:you know, but I do think that the technology changes
Speaker:in the assistive technology that users are using is
Speaker:making life easier for them.
Speaker:So long as the AI understands what a cat is.
Speaker:I think that's the issue, isn't it?
Speaker:How much we're training the ai.
Speaker:I know I did try and ask, AI to write some accessibility
Speaker:tests for me to see how much it understood the checkpoints
Speaker:and after having to correct it a few times, 'cause it really,
Speaker:I swear it was using a blog that someone had no clue about
Speaker:what these checkpoints are.
Speaker:I don't know the source, but I knew it was wrong and
Speaker:I was like, I'm not gonna spend time training it.
Speaker:My husband has warned me, like Mark mentioned Skynet's
Speaker:there, but, it is good if it's used in the right way.
Speaker:I do think, keeping in mind that the AI tools you're
Speaker:using might share information, private things like, anything
Speaker:you don't want shared, don't use with it unless you've
Speaker:got a specific application that is private and not
Speaker:in the shared, network.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:We as humans just need to realise that we should use
Speaker:tools in appropriate ways.
Speaker:And then it will help us with gaining knowledge,
Speaker:sharing knowledge and using some of the automation
Speaker:tools because I think it is possible to automate most
Speaker:things, but you can automate it poorly if you don't
Speaker:understand what you're doing.
Speaker:So I think as Paul and Mark both said, it's the human
Speaker:part of the understanding what's coming outta these
Speaker:machines, that if we don't understand it, it's gonna
Speaker:cause more of a headache.
Speaker:But when we've got there, I think it'll be epic.
Speaker:I'm not gonna say it's gonna reduce all the workload,
Speaker:it would just reduce some of the items that is often
Speaker:caught by automation.
Speaker:So it won't be things like, are the
Speaker:instructions meaningful?
Speaker:Does the alternative text make sense?
Speaker:It might do eventually, but for now it be is
Speaker:something that should be there that's subjective.
Speaker:There is always gonna.
Speaker:Require a human to think about it.
Speaker:But the AI will hopefully
Speaker:get us thinking about the harder issues and not
Speaker:wasting... I shouldn't say waste, putting a lot
Speaker:of effort into finding stuff that is easy for
Speaker:a tool to find for you.
Speaker:So I think that's the most recent changes.
Speaker:Five years ago I would've said automation was way
Speaker:off, and now I think it's, it's getting there.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:But like you say, I think like, I think to, to all of
Speaker:your points, the, the human element, keeping that alive
Speaker:in everything that we do is, I mean, it's, we can't avoid it.
Speaker:And I don't think that anyone's intention is
Speaker:to completely, you know, ensure that we only have
Speaker:robot overlords that are doing all the work for us.
Speaker:I mean, maybe it'd be nice, we could all just sit on a.
Speaker:beach and drink Pina Coladas and the robots do all the
Speaker:work for us, but, ideal world and all of that.
Speaker:So, no, I really appreciate that.
Speaker:Is there anything conflicting?
Speaker:I think that it was quite, I think it was, we were
Speaker:all in agreement there on those sorts of things.
Speaker:Is there anything that anyone wanted to, to add, at all?
Speaker:I think that if we look at, at AI and the possibility
Speaker:there, that if you can, if you put the full responsibility
Speaker:at the side of the user to use AI to be able to
Speaker:understand information, the, how the app works,
Speaker:how the website works, like that's not the right thing
Speaker:I think you should implement AI at the developer's
Speaker:site, that they can do the right thing automated
Speaker:fully, but that they're responsible for the end
Speaker:result because otherwise.
Speaker:If I will, if I make a contract with, with a
Speaker:company and it's like somehow translated with AI and,
Speaker:and it's like the amounts change who's responsible?
Speaker:So I, I, I, I think that you should always put it
Speaker:at the developer side.
Speaker:And then AI can also make a big difference
Speaker:because they can prevent probably a lot of the
Speaker:issues ever from happening.
Speaker:But I think that, , if I currently look at that,
Speaker:that the end user uses AI to fix things, that's quite
Speaker:risky because if, if there's an interpretation error,
Speaker:then the end user is also responsible for that and,
Speaker:and also making the wrong decision there probably.
Speaker:And that's something it's a bit scary, I think, as end
Speaker:user that you don't, cannot trust your output or, so
Speaker:that's, that's something I'm thinking about that
Speaker:should be at the developer side or at the tester side,
Speaker:like at the company side.
Speaker:It's like responsible for the website or the app.
Speaker:Mark, did you have anything as well to add on that?
Speaker:I was just gonna say there's, , even though
Speaker:there's some alignment in a lot of what we're saying,
Speaker:I think there's still that, that bit of skepticism
Speaker:in the back of our minds.
Speaker:So there's, I don't think there's anything
Speaker:wrong with that.
Speaker:It's just that maybe that's a bit of a timing thing.
Speaker:Like everything that's introduced, that's new and or
Speaker:like a lot of things that are introduced that's new and not
Speaker:quite sure how to interpret yet is, , we wrap our heads
Speaker:around those advancements.
Speaker:It's hard to comprehend that if things move like times
Speaker:two each year, let's say in 5 year and 10 year, like
Speaker:let's say in 20 years, like everything will be like you
Speaker:create a complete app within like few seconds probably.
Speaker:So that's, but you can't, I'm not able to, to, to
Speaker:comprehend that, that it's will be that way because
Speaker:it's going too fast.
Speaker:, Yeah.
Speaker:Interesting times.
Speaker:But would it be accessible if they create
Speaker:something in two minutes.
Speaker:Will it work?
Speaker:So next year we could just be a bunch of
Speaker:agents on this call.
Speaker:You could input a few prompts into something to
Speaker:create a podcast and done.
Speaker:How much editing do you have to do then?
Speaker:No, the agents took care of it and Joe's got all these.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Anyway, I don't even exist.
Speaker:I'm just an anomaly.
Speaker:I'm not actually a real person, so that's fine.
Speaker:That's why, that's the only way I'm trying to
Speaker:represent realness by eating a few bites of
Speaker:watermelon on the side here.
Speaker:So
Speaker:amazing.
Speaker:Thank you all so much for that.
Speaker:I really, really appreciate that.
Speaker:Awesome points.
Speaker:Very, very relevant.
Speaker:I'm sure that all the listeners will, will agree.
Speaker:And so we're gonna move, , on now to our next group.
Speaker:Thank you all so much.
Speaker:And to our next group is, , Mimouna Mahdaoui, Grant
Speaker:Broome, Heather Hepburn and Jeremy Grandstaff.
Speaker:And the question that I had for you all was, how have
Speaker:you seen businesses embracing accessibility as a core value?
Speaker:And if you have any success stories that you can help to
Speaker:inspire others to follow suit.
Speaker:So, , Mimouna, can we start with you please, , with
Speaker:your thoughts on this?
Speaker:Oh, I didn't expect to start.
Speaker:Thank you Joe.
Speaker:Well, I guess one of the things that I was thinking
Speaker:about, looking at this question and sort of
Speaker:like reflecting on my own journey in accessibility.
Speaker:And bringing that topic into my own organisation is
Speaker:that if we say like so many businesses have their own
Speaker:like company values, core values, whatever we want
Speaker:to brand them, very rarely would you have something
Speaker:that is like, we don't care basically about our audience.
Speaker:We don't care about different groups of users.
Speaker:You would really, really, rarely have that.
Speaker:But saying that it is your core value that you
Speaker:care about, inclusion, that you care about,
Speaker:disability inclusion in particular is a whole
Speaker:different thing in practice.
Speaker:And delivering on that is completely different.
Speaker:All demands, some work.
Speaker:And I think showcasing that in terms of business
Speaker:impact, driving awareness, being an advocate, not just
Speaker:tick those boxes and trying to meet compliance being
Speaker:spooked by the, , European Accessibility Act on
Speaker:the way and all of that.
Speaker:That actually for me, if you say it's, it's a core value
Speaker:it's something that we really care about as a
Speaker:business, you are not only, not just ticking those
Speaker:boxes, but you are really trying to build that culture
Speaker:across the entire business.
Speaker:You are not just funding a team.
Speaker:Hopefully you are funding a team to actually look after
Speaker:accessibility as well, which is in itself a big challenge.
Speaker:But you're also providing the chance to everyone
Speaker:across the business to be responsible somehow for
Speaker:accessibility, for disability inclusion, for advocacy,
Speaker:for driving awareness.
Speaker:It's not just the product and tech teams, it's not
Speaker:just, the finance team providing the budget.
Speaker:It's not just one team.
Speaker:It's really everyone.
Speaker:And I think by combining those forces and those different
Speaker:levels of influence, those different levels of impact,
Speaker:you can really drive that impact as such and not only
Speaker:have that pure business bottom line type of like, , outcome
Speaker:in a way, but actually like reputationally being able
Speaker:to make that difference and, and tell that you are trying
Speaker:to make that difference.
Speaker:So I think for me, if we say it's a core value, the
Speaker:proof is in the pudding in that sense where it's
Speaker:a culture that nobody is arguing anymore within the
Speaker:organisation, that it's something that you really live
Speaker:and not just say you live.
Speaker:So that would be my, my 2 cents on this one.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Think we can all agree on that.
Speaker:I'm gonna bring Jeremy in now, if you don't mind, just
Speaker:to sort of get your views on this, on this question.
Speaker:And hopefully you're in agreement with, with Min,
Speaker:but yeah, maybe you've got some different views.
Speaker:Well, I, I, so the question is an interesting one, for me
Speaker:on a number of levels, right?
Speaker:As a blind person using a screen reader and as someone
Speaker:who's, you know, has that seen disability for the last
Speaker:49 years of my 49-year-old life, up until I actually
Speaker:started working for a company where we can help solve the
Speaker:problem, accessibility for me was, I need you to do this for
Speaker:me so that I can do my job.
Speaker:And so when, when I saw this question and I thought,
Speaker:what are the organisations that I'm seeing embrace
Speaker:this as a core value?
Speaker:And, and I'll also caveat this by saying I live in
Speaker:the United States, which has a whole different thing
Speaker:going on right now than the rest of the world.
Speaker:And that's what makes this, very interesting for me.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I think it probably comes down to, I'm, I'm gonna
Speaker:say three to four 'cause I didn't write them out, so
Speaker:I, I think I'm gonna get it into three, but we'll
Speaker:try for four at the most.
Speaker:They understand the business case, right?
Speaker:Companies that are really leading here understand
Speaker:that when you improve something for a person with
Speaker:disabilities, you're actually fixing it for everybody
Speaker:and making it a better experience for everybody.
Speaker:And so for them, it's not the for, for leaders leading
Speaker:companies in this area.
Speaker:It's not the conversation that I'll have every once
Speaker:in a while, which is, yeah, Jeremy, I'm trying
Speaker:to sell you something.
Speaker:But you know, we don't really target people with
Speaker:disabilities, which is kind of offensive on its own right.
Speaker:But they really understand that there's a number
Speaker:of people in the world who are leaving buying
Speaker:power in a shopping cart.
Speaker:And it's 'cause they can't buy from you and get that
Speaker:case, they also understand the concept, and I'm sure someone
Speaker:else will talk about it, of baking it in from the get go
Speaker:and how that costs less money.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And, and they get those things.
Speaker:But I think there are two other things, maybe
Speaker:three, that actually the leaders stand apart.
Speaker:The first one is being able to reframe the dialogue.
Speaker:And the reason that I say that is because in the US
Speaker:that's a big part of what we're dealing with right now.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I am not allowed to use the word equity or diversity
Speaker:or inclusion when I'm talking about accessibility.
Speaker:And as a person who depends on accessibility for equitable
Speaker:opportunities, that's a really hard argument to do.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But reframing it as power, reframing it as opportunity,
Speaker:reframing it as claiming buying power, right?
Speaker:And, and looking at ways to do that.
Speaker:So that's one.
Speaker:I think the second one is, another one is looking at
Speaker:if you're doing automated audits, are you using
Speaker:multiple rule sets and multiple auditing, , engines?
Speaker:And by using those multiple rule sets,
Speaker:everybody's solution is always a little different.
Speaker:If you can find a solution that's using multiple rule
Speaker:sets to do automated audits, you just increased the amount
Speaker:of errors that you're gonna be able to find because we're not
Speaker:using this multiple rule sets.
Speaker:But the really key one, and I promise I'll bring
Speaker:this to a close because I feel like I'm talking too
Speaker:much, but the really key one, it's about the user
Speaker:experience I can talk about
Speaker:accessibility.
Speaker:I can talking about, I, I'm sorry.
Speaker:I can talk about accessibility.
Speaker:I can talk about doing it because it's the right
Speaker:thing to do for people with disabilities, but when I talk
Speaker:about helping create world class user experiences for
Speaker:everyone, light bulbs go off and I can't even see 'em,
Speaker:but I know they're going off.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:People get it and the ones who don't are probably
Speaker:the companies I don't wanna work with anyway.
Speaker:If I'm just being really blunt.
Speaker:So here, here, that's some thoughts.
Speaker:I think you nearly got a cheer from everyone there,
Speaker:Jeremy, so that's a, that's a, a great achievement.
Speaker:So thank you so much.
Speaker:And that's not even writing it down, so I
Speaker:hope I covered it all.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:You're just incredible.
Speaker:Love it.
Speaker:Thank you so much for sharing.
Speaker:Heather, can I, can I come to you, on, on your thoughts
Speaker:on the, on the topic as well?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Hey Joe.
Speaker:Hey everyone.
Speaker:Thanks for having me.
Speaker:It's great to be here.
Speaker:Well, I'm just gonna tell you a bit of a, a story about, um.
Speaker:How Skyscanner went from absolutely nothing to,
Speaker:well, for accessibility, being from nothing to a
Speaker:core value, where I am.
Speaker:So yeah, five years ago, before we started the
Speaker:accessibility program, there was nothing, it
Speaker:wasn't being worked on, it wasn't being talked about.
Speaker:It wasn't on any roadmap or radar or anything.
Speaker:So after we got the program up and running after a little
Speaker:while, I thought, wouldn't it be a great opportunity to talk
Speaker:to all the new people coming into Skyscanner, and get them
Speaker:while they're, they're fresh and keen, and actually tell
Speaker:them about the importance of accessibility and why they
Speaker:should be thinking about it.
Speaker:So I asked the people who run, , our global induction
Speaker:sessions, I went to them to say, Hey, any chance of
Speaker:a little slot in there, just a short one that I can come
Speaker:and talk and, they said, no, , we don't have time for that.
Speaker:So our global induction sessions happen every couple
Speaker:of months and it's when all of our new people come from
Speaker:all of our offices all over the world to Edinburgh for
Speaker:two days, and they get taught all about the company, about
Speaker:the business, and about the values and everything.
Speaker:So they didn't have, they didn't have time for just
Speaker:a little 20 minute chat on accessibility then moved
Speaker:forward a few years and they actually came to me and asked
Speaker:if I would please do a talk at Global Induction and could I
Speaker:also possibly run an empathy lab for one of the whole
Speaker:afternoons of the two days.
Speaker:So that was a lovely, lovely shift.
Speaker:And actually just feedback yesterday that I got about
Speaker:the Empathy Lab from the folks at the last induction was
Speaker:that it was the number one standout from the whole thing.
Speaker:So that was, that was really nice to hear.
Speaker:Yeah, it was great.
Speaker:And I must just add, um.
Speaker:When I do that talk, there, I'm one of four people and
Speaker:it's part of a bigger group now called Positive Impact.
Speaker:So that is accessibility, sustainability, de and
Speaker:i and communities, which is our charities team.
Speaker:And, the group is relatively new, but it's very, very much,
Speaker:a core value and a part of our core company strategy.
Speaker:We report every quarter to the exec team and
Speaker:ultimately the board.
Speaker:So I just love how it's gone from nah, we don't
Speaker:have time for that to, to what it is today.
Speaker:It's, yeah, it's been awesome.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:That's incredible and yeah, amazing work.
Speaker:'cause that's what a, yeah, complete shift.
Speaker:A 180 turn, you know, to go from not bothered or not
Speaker:interested to, and that, that feedback obviously
Speaker:is invaluable as well.
Speaker:So it's just so great that you can sort of use that to
Speaker:hopefully maintain that and it'll be something that's
Speaker:just part of everyone's induction moving forward.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Very important I think.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like, and that kind of goes back to Paul's point as well
Speaker:about, you know, if you've got a development team that
Speaker:have really worked hard, they care about accessibility,
Speaker:they've, you know, made the best product they can, that
Speaker:team may move on and then a new team may be hired.
Speaker:And I might be stepping on something that Grant
Speaker:is about to say actually, so I'm gonna shut up.
Speaker:But yeah, so Grant, I didn't mean to leave you last,
Speaker:but someone had to be.
Speaker:So I'm gonna bring you in now if you've, if you've got some
Speaker:thoughts on this, please.
Speaker:No, that's absolutely fine.
Speaker:, It was nice to hear, you know, everybody's viewpoints
Speaker:and as they were speaking, it was just resonating
Speaker:with my own experiences.
Speaker:So I've been in accessibility for quite a long time, and
Speaker:I've seen the progress of accessibility over the years.
Speaker:I think what we finding now is, is a lot of what maybe
Speaker:Heather's experience has been where you just get in so
Speaker:much more, management buy in now, because it is actually
Speaker:becoming part of core values.
Speaker:And businesses frame accessibility, in
Speaker:a different way now.
Speaker:And they give much more importance to it, than
Speaker:than what used to happen.
Speaker:And I think that's mostly apparent in meetings now where
Speaker:you'll turn up and there's senior people there and
Speaker:there'll be lots of people in the meeting because they're
Speaker:just interested in accessibility and
Speaker:they're interested in what you've got to say.
Speaker:And that's just happening, , more and more.
Speaker:And it's because it's just an important part,
Speaker:part of their brand.
Speaker:And then perhaps the, the second thing that, that
Speaker:I've noticed is just the, the level and frequency
Speaker:of engagement as well.
Speaker:You see that, instead of, I mean the, the, the traditional
Speaker:way of doing accessibility would be to build a product
Speaker:and then do the accessibility audit at the end.
Speaker:And that's changing probably out of necessity because it's
Speaker:very hard to pass an audit like that and you're finding
Speaker:that teams just demand more from you, as, as a provider
Speaker:of accessibility services
Speaker:and it's great to see that, it's just being
Speaker:taken more seriously.
Speaker:And, and that's the level that you want and that's
Speaker:what you want to... and that's really what you
Speaker:expect from teams that really do have accessibility as
Speaker:part of their core values.
Speaker:And that breeds a healthy culture, of course.
Speaker:So once you've got a healthy culture of accessibility, and
Speaker:I can think of, you know, a few examples of organisations
Speaker:that we've worked with where it's just part of their DNA
Speaker:is just, you know, it's part of their definition of done.
Speaker:We hear that said a lot.
Speaker:You know, accessful thing needs to be part of
Speaker:the definition of done.
Speaker:And you see with these successful agencies,
Speaker:that's absolutely the case.
Speaker:If a product isn't accessible, then it's not
Speaker:done and it doesn't go out.
Speaker:And I think that that is, you know, it's just
Speaker:absolutely great to see.
Speaker:But yeah, I don't think I got anything more than
Speaker:that to add to, to this conversation right now.
Speaker:But yeah, it's, it's just very encouraging to hear
Speaker:what's been said by the other people in this
Speaker:group because it really.
Speaker:That's perfect.
Speaker:I think it's, it is, it's nice to hear that positivity.
Speaker:And I think, you know, that's something that I wanted to
Speaker:bring through this episode, especially, you know, we've
Speaker:got everyone in one room
Speaker:it'd be miserable if we were all just complaining
Speaker:about how bad it is in accessibility right now.
Speaker:So, no, it's nice.
Speaker:We've got smiling faces.
Speaker:It's the best thing ever.
Speaker:The other thing I was gonna get a little bit political
Speaker:and maybe throw a spanner in the works now, but you
Speaker:mentioned about we're seeing a lot more buy-in and, and you
Speaker:know, more of the clients and companies that you work with
Speaker:you're seeing that at that management level and there's a
Speaker:bit of a step change in terms of the definition of done and,
Speaker:and, you know, it's actually an ingrained part of culture.
Speaker:Are we worried that with what's happening in the
Speaker:US sorry Jeremy, that that's potentially
Speaker:going to, maybe shift?
Speaker:Because obviously it's a very different environment
Speaker:and I think a lot of us in the UK used to look to the
Speaker:US and think, you know,
Speaker:it's a more sort of litigious environment.
Speaker:There's, there's potentially more, you know,
Speaker:litigation and, and things.
Speaker:And if that's gonna be changing, could that have
Speaker:a knock on negative effect to us and, and Europe or
Speaker:are we balancing out with the, the dreaded EAA.
Speaker:Yeah, I, I think we are insulated actually.
Speaker:I think, I don't, I don't expect that we'll be, have the
Speaker:same exposure to what's going on over in the States, which
Speaker:I, it just seems so extreme, you know, it's hard to get
Speaker:your head around it really.
Speaker:And I think that, yeah, I think with the EAA coming down
Speaker:the line, it, it's, it's so difficult to imagine that we
Speaker:will find ourselves in that same scenario and I just hope,
Speaker:I really hope that we don't.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Well, incredible answers again.
Speaker:So thank you all so, so much.
Speaker:If there is anything else, then please let me know and,
Speaker:I won't swiftly move on, but if you're all good, then we'll
Speaker:go to our next and final group before, some final thought.
Speaker:So finally, , we have Craig and Ronnie.
Speaker:So the question I would like to ask you both is
Speaker:from a either a public sector, 'cause I know that
Speaker:both of you have done a lot of work in that field.
Speaker:And consultancy viewpoint what's been the most inspiring
Speaker:sort of shift in that leadership or policy that
Speaker:you feel and feel has driven real change in recent years?
Speaker:I feel like I'm probably gearing you both up
Speaker:to talk about the EAA.
Speaker:So let's hopefully, hopefully you surprise me.
Speaker:But, Craig, I'll come to you first if you don't mind.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I think the EAA is definitely something
Speaker:that is driving change.
Speaker:There's no doubt about that.
Speaker:I think, I don't know if it's necessarily an inspiring shift
Speaker:or an inspiring kind of change
Speaker:I think the EAA is definitely causing organisations to
Speaker:take note and do more work and those sorts of things.
Speaker:But I would say that from what I've observed, it seems to be
Speaker:more fear-based than because they've been inspired by it.
Speaker:So I definitely think with legislation, there's,
Speaker:there's a place for that like that, you know, it does,
Speaker:it does drive that change
Speaker:but, it doesn't always kind of come with the right
Speaker:intentions, I suppose, from the people that are trying
Speaker:to implement it, I think.
Speaker:But I mean, there has been, there has been a lot of good
Speaker:stuff with legislation and, and those sorts of things.
Speaker:I mean, , along with the EAA I mean, obviously
Speaker:that's the first time we're kind of seeing that
Speaker:crossover into private sector stuff, which is, well
Speaker:it's, yeah, I mean, it's the first time it's really
Speaker:impacted private sector.
Speaker:So it's, it's really good to see that.
Speaker:And I think we're also seeing more kind of harmonisation
Speaker:across legislations.
Speaker:I mean, the.
Speaker:Like WCAGs now in the Americans with Disabilities
Speaker:Act, there never used to be, it was kind of alluded to,
Speaker:like if you got sued for it, that's the standard they'd
Speaker:use in court, but it wasn't actually in the legislation.
Speaker:So I think those sorts of things are definitely helping
Speaker:the harmonisation of it and the new legislation.
Speaker:But I think for me, the, I think the most inspiring thing
Speaker:that I'm seeing in terms of, in terms of the leadership
Speaker:side of things, I think it's just actually seeing people
Speaker:step up and, and doing that kind of leadership role and
Speaker:accessibility, well doing that accessibility role in an
Speaker:organisation, I think there is slow culture change happening.
Speaker:I think it's definitely slow, but it is there.
Speaker:And I think it's, it's largely down to the leadership and
Speaker:the work that gets done by the likes of the people
Speaker:that are on this call.
Speaker:I think, accessibility's always just been
Speaker:seen as compliance.
Speaker:It's that box tick and exercise, and the
Speaker:legislation, I suppose, often reinforces that.
Speaker:But I am starting to see a shift to more
Speaker:kind of sustainable accessibility practices.
Speaker:You know, we're seeing more, we're seeing more
Speaker:things like inclusive design principles, cognitive
Speaker:accessibility guidelines, neurodiversity policies.
Speaker:More people are getting hired.
Speaker:I think, , like W3C are doing their, their draft
Speaker:and cognitive accessibility guidance, which is a
Speaker:known gap in WCAG, which is something that the
Speaker:legislation isn't gonna fix
Speaker:so I think people are waking up to the fact
Speaker:that accessibility is much more than the code base.
Speaker:It's looking more broadly across the organisation
Speaker:at things like policies at things like processes,
Speaker:at things like training.
Speaker:It's like Paul alluded to earlier.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:If you've only got a few members of staff that do your
Speaker:accessibility, 'cause they're passionate about it and
Speaker:they leave the organisation, all of that accessibility
Speaker:knowledge leaves with them.
Speaker:So, that's the way it always was.
Speaker:And I think if we think about large organisations
Speaker:where you've got a lot of governance and you have,
Speaker:things like security policies and mandatory security
Speaker:training and GDPR compliance and these sorts of things,
Speaker:like imagine if you had one person that just did all of
Speaker:your security training, , all of your security policies,
Speaker:and then they just left,
Speaker:like organisations would never let that happen,
Speaker:but they always have done that with accessibility.
Speaker:So yeah, I, I have noticed things are starting to change.
Speaker:I mean, organisations are starting to hire
Speaker:accessibility specialists.
Speaker:We are seeing more and more job adverts come up for
Speaker:accessibility roles I mean, you're always sharing them.
Speaker:They're not always paying the right amounts, which I
Speaker:know me and you've spoken about, and that's a...
Speaker:Nothing to do with me.
Speaker:But, yeah, we are seeing them come up at least.
Speaker:And I think even those organisations that are still
Speaker:trying to tack it onto other roles, like at least they're
Speaker:acknowledging the need for accessibility now, which is
Speaker:a, a much better place than where I was at five years
Speaker:ago, when I was writing job descriptions for DWP because
Speaker:we'd never hired accessibility specialists before.
Speaker:So, yeah, I think in, in terms of leadership, I do
Speaker:think the most inspiring shift that I've seen is
Speaker:the fact that people are actually leading on this
Speaker:stuff now and they're getting the buy-in to do it.
Speaker:And that is changing, organisations and, and
Speaker:the kind of landscape of, of accessibility
Speaker:as a whole, I think.
Speaker:Definitely, I think that there is, there is a bit of
Speaker:a, there, there's obviously the growth in what, you
Speaker:know, everyone on this call has been doing over that
Speaker:period of time as well.
Speaker:You know, you've been, you've had to slog it out.
Speaker:You've had to have that resilience that we've
Speaker:spoken about in previous episodes as well to, to keep
Speaker:driving and pushing for that
Speaker:so it's a, it, it's like a everyone pat on the back
Speaker:moment, really, not me.
Speaker:I'm not taking any credit again.
Speaker:But it's, it is thanks to that, that you're starting
Speaker:to see that, I think.
Speaker:So it's nice to focus on those positives.
Speaker:I know that there is an awful lot that we could focus
Speaker:on that that isn't going our way all the time in,
Speaker:in this sort of community.
Speaker:But, that's, it's just great to hear that it's being seen
Speaker:broadly across the board.
Speaker:And Ronnie, bringing you in now, hopefully you are
Speaker:seeing the same sort of thing or if, if there's anything
Speaker:in particular else that, that has sort of inspired,
Speaker:, you know, any leadership or, or policy change.
Speaker:Well, I think Craig put it very well in that, one of
Speaker:the things, like I've been in this space for over two
Speaker:decades and been working a lot with governments and
Speaker:it, like Craig said, it's always been either like on
Speaker:the back foot somewhere, somebody somewhere did a
Speaker:little thing and that's it.
Speaker:And
Speaker:living outside of the UK, like people in our government in
Speaker:the Netherlands have always looked to the UK as, as like
Speaker:a decent example on how to do these kinds of things.
Speaker:Even looking at the Gov UK design system, but , also
Speaker:now, like within the UK government, there's not
Speaker:enough, but there's a way more accessibility focused
Speaker:roles within departments.
Speaker:And we're slowly starting to see that move happen
Speaker:in, in the EU as well.
Speaker:I think I've, I've, like, I've seen three or four
Speaker:just this year already within the Netherlands.
Speaker:There were a couple last year.
Speaker:And it just shows that organisations are taking it
Speaker:more seriously and, and are embedding those roles better
Speaker:in their organisations.
Speaker:From a consultancy point of view, I'm also happy
Speaker:to see agencies similar to Nomensa and Tetralogical,
Speaker:like following that suit, like I know we do a lot of
Speaker:education in that part, and I know Tetralogical do as well.
Speaker:So like, instead of just telling people or, or
Speaker:giving them an audit result saying, this is
Speaker:what you're doing wrong.
Speaker:We're, we're all actively.
Speaker:Trying to instill knowledge and maturity within our
Speaker:clients, because we all realise that that's the only
Speaker:sustainable way forward.
Speaker:I don't want to keep, honestly, don't want to, I
Speaker:don't want to keep working with the same clients over and
Speaker:over and over again because that's boring to me and it
Speaker:doesn't yield any progression.
Speaker:So building maturity with and having people in
Speaker:those organisations that you can actually, well,
Speaker:you can support them in building that maturity.
Speaker:They can, they can create their own network and their
Speaker:own governance inside of the organisation, and sure,
Speaker:you can support them with, with expert knowledge,
Speaker:but it's, it's building their capabilities and, and
Speaker:we're, we're seeing that those type of engagements
Speaker:more and more and more.
Speaker:And not only would it within the.
Speaker:UK, like we're, we're, we're having those types
Speaker:of things happen in the Netherlands, in France,
Speaker:in Germany like there's...
Speaker:and that, that, that's good to see.
Speaker:It also sparks a bit of hope for the EAA.
Speaker:Like, it, it, like, mind you, it took the government sector
Speaker:eight years to get to this point, at least under the
Speaker:web accessibility directive.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:They, they, so, by, by now under the directive, like
Speaker:most organisations are, are on their third audit cycle
Speaker:to keep their accessibility statements in check.
Speaker:And it's finally they're realise, Hmm, maybe we
Speaker:need a more sustainable way of solving this problem.
Speaker:So hopefully that, like businesses tend
Speaker:to be more efficient.
Speaker:So you'd hope that they have a bit of a quicker
Speaker:adoption rate in that sense.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Yeah, learnings, learnings across the board, I would say.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:And I just wanna sort of re-clarify something.
Speaker:I'm sure Ronnie, you love working with your clients
Speaker:over and over, just probably not on the same issues
Speaker:because you're like, come on, we helped you with them.
Speaker:But no, amazing.
Speaker:I mean, across the board, I think throughout the
Speaker:whole episode, you know, everyone's touched on
Speaker:that education piece and we're all still learning.
Speaker:I definitely am, I know nothing.
Speaker:But we're all still learning every day, and there's gonna
Speaker:be new challenges and, and new things that are gonna pop up.
Speaker:It's tech, you know, everything's gonna change
Speaker:and, who knows, you know, maybe there is hope in, in
Speaker:our AI and robot overlords one day just saying, do you know
Speaker:what, it's absolutely fine.
Speaker:But I, I just feel that that's possibly that's... You
Speaker:need to have that appetite for, continuous learning
Speaker:when you are in this field.
Speaker:But my opinion.
Speaker:I think, just to touch on that point as well, and
Speaker:something that Ronnie kind of, was talking about in terms of
Speaker:getting bored, doing the same things or, I think there's
Speaker:a lot of, like, we see the same accessibility issues
Speaker:come up time and time again.
Speaker:And there are things that are really easy to find
Speaker:I mean, you know, you still see color contrast
Speaker:fails and you can just run an automated tool and
Speaker:find them straight away.
Speaker:And I think it's, I think it's really interesting
Speaker:when you get a, like a, a real challenge and problem
Speaker:where, you know, there's a, a screen reader that has a
Speaker:particular bug with a certain thing and you're trying
Speaker:to find ways around it.
Speaker:And I think it's, if, if we can get the education
Speaker:piece right and, and get that sort of, it's like the,
Speaker:the maturity model, right?
Speaker:Where you've got the steps and whatnot.
Speaker:I think if you can get to the point where.
Speaker:Accessibility maturities at a certain level where everyone
Speaker:can kind of do the basics.
Speaker:Then it frees everybody up to work on those really
Speaker:interesting, challenging problems, I suppose,
Speaker:where, you know, there's particular nuance in, in
Speaker:the screen reader or the technology that's being used.
Speaker:But yeah, I think, when everyone, everyone's just
Speaker:churning audits out, I think everyone gets a bit sick of
Speaker:just finding the same things.
Speaker:I think.
Speaker:So I was having a conversation yesterday about the web
Speaker:aim, 1 million websites as well, and I know that a
Speaker:lot of that it can just be a kind of maybe information
Speaker:dump and it is the, the main, the the automated
Speaker:things that can be found.
Speaker:There might be a lot of false positives as well
Speaker:with that kind of reporting.
Speaker:But it does seem to be the same four to five
Speaker:issues that come out every single year that that's
Speaker:what we're reporting on.
Speaker:So yeah, if it's that fundamental level that those
Speaker:things get fixed, it's still gonna be an incremental
Speaker:increase in accessibility overall, isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah, I think that's, that's it.
Speaker:Like unfortunately, it, it all hangs on education.
Speaker:Like the reason we're seeing those types of
Speaker:issues and we're seeing them time and time and
Speaker:time again, is because people simply don't know.
Speaker:And like, yes, we all do a lot of outreach and we do a
Speaker:lot of education, but there's, from that regard, there's
Speaker:still so much, so much to do.
Speaker:There's
Speaker:dozens of people every month that come to our training
Speaker:sessions that have never heard of accessibility before, and
Speaker:they all work in digital.
Speaker:It's like they're, they're designers for digital,
Speaker:they're, they're developers, web app, you name it.
Speaker:Like they've never considered it or have certainly never
Speaker:had any like, serious piece of education on it.
Speaker:It's not covered in any curriculum or whatever.
Speaker:So, so there's, there's.
Speaker:Unless we start focusing on that area and, and
Speaker:tackling it from the source.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We're gonna see that loop happen.
Speaker:Maybe everyone that ever gets a job ever should just
Speaker:be going to SkySkanners inductions and Heather can
Speaker:just, you know, give them that intro from day one,
Speaker:you know, regardless of what company they work for.
Speaker:So, thank you guys.
Speaker:Thank you so much.
Speaker:It's really, really, really appreciate you
Speaker:being on the call and for all those insights.
Speaker:So I'm gonna bring everyone back in now
Speaker:for our final round.
Speaker:I'd like to ask each of our speakers, , to share a one
Speaker:sentence takeaway or a quote or a lesson learned, to
Speaker:keep that hope and vision for the future of accessibility.
Speaker:So I'm gonna come to Grant Broome first,
Speaker:if you don't mind.
Speaker:Yeah, thanks.
Speaker:I would just say accessibility is very hard, so just keep
Speaker:making progress and focus on progress over perfection.
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Helen, have you got, a quote or a, a takeaway to share?
Speaker:After all this talk I have to admit, it's opened my
Speaker:eyes that we're all one big family and when it comes to
Speaker:accessibility, we might love each other and hate each other
Speaker:you know, the infighting between companies.
Speaker:But what it comes down to is we are all looking for
Speaker:the user and trying to make something better for them,
Speaker:even if it means using different tools we may
Speaker:not be comfortable with.
Speaker:So I applaud everyone for opening my eyes
Speaker:to a few new ideas.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Oh, thank you Helen.
Speaker:Paul Van Workum i'm gonna come to you next.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I want to make some conclusions and it's
Speaker:like, it's getting better.
Speaker:It's getting better.
Speaker:I'm only in the accessibility field for a few years,
Speaker:but it's getting better.
Speaker:But yeah, we should together work on getting it better,
Speaker:easier, quicker and with a little bit more fun.
Speaker:And that's that's what I would like to wish everyone.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:I actually really like that.
Speaker:That should be a tagline.
Speaker:Accessibility, it's getting better.
Speaker:Still some hope at least, isn't it?
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:It's hard and it's going to take some time, but yeah,
Speaker:it's hard and it'll take some time, but it's getting better.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Mark Lapole, gonna come to you next.
Speaker:Right, so if any of your listeners are just starting
Speaker:out, just get started.
Speaker:Like don't, don't be overwhelmed with all
Speaker:the tools we're hearing from some experts.
Speaker:We have ranges of experience.
Speaker:Just get started and make some movement.
Speaker:And I'll reiterate Helen's bit just to remember, no
Speaker:matter what we're using or what technology or AI comes
Speaker:about, that there's always a person at the end of the
Speaker:thing that you're building.
Speaker:So keep that person in mind.
Speaker:For whatever it's you're building.
Speaker:'cause we're all different in some way and we consume
Speaker:content differently.
Speaker:So keep that in mind.
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Jeremy, if you've got a one-liner.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Or four, it's fine, don't worry.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I appreciate that.
Speaker:I'm gonna just put this out there.
Speaker:First of all, starting the conversation around
Speaker:accessibility can be really difficult.
Speaker:My recommendation is ask the question, why is accessibility
Speaker:even important to you?
Speaker:Why are we having the conversation
Speaker:we're having today?
Speaker:And just let them talk.
Speaker:They will talk themselves right into it.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:But here's the other piece that I wanted to share, and,
Speaker:and Joe, I'm gonna do my best to make this very short and,
Speaker:and as powerful as I can.
Speaker:Because as I was listening to us having this conversation,
Speaker:I was reminded very early in my career, I used to work with
Speaker:biking and walking advocacy organisations, and they
Speaker:were always separate, right?
Speaker:Bike Massachusetts, Walk Boston, and they always
Speaker:competed against each other.
Speaker:But the ones who did it really well, it wasn't about biking
Speaker:and walking, it was creating safer places for people to
Speaker:get to their destination.
Speaker:It was creating
Speaker:networks of transportation options.
Speaker:It was about equity.
Speaker:It was about, you know, creating a transportation
Speaker:system that got people to where they wanted to go.
Speaker:And it was really interesting because the
Speaker:car people would jump on board with that argument.
Speaker:And they would help to support it.
Speaker:And so when I mentioned earlier, bring it
Speaker:back to the user.
Speaker:I'm not joking.
Speaker:We are making improvements as a field.
Speaker:I think we can, I think part of this conversation is around
Speaker:learning how to do better, but I think it's also about how do
Speaker:we reframe the conversation.
Speaker:If I try to have a conversation with somebody,
Speaker:you should make your stuff more accessible.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:When I have the money, I'll get to that.
Speaker:But if I say, you should make sure that all of your
Speaker:users are able to access a world class user experience,
Speaker:how can anybody look me in the eye and say no to that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Just a thought.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I mean, I love, that's a very long one-liner, but I love it
Speaker:and it, it is very relevant.
Speaker:So thank you so much, Jeremy.
Speaker:Next I'm gonna come to Mimouna Mahdaoui if you've got a quote
Speaker:or an inspirational paragraph.
Speaker:I feel like I'm gonna be like I have to share that
Speaker:kind of like meme with my face in the middle of it.
Speaker:And then that could be low as you said that.
Speaker:I think what I would say, and that's a little bit like what
Speaker:was said earlier, advice to the newbies in this industry
Speaker:and this field of work, 'cause I still feel like a
Speaker:newbie in this, is that we all need to be patient to
Speaker:a certain extent and I'm one of the least patient
Speaker:persons on this planet.
Speaker:But change and culture change can take time.
Speaker:So just remember that every step forward is a good step
Speaker:forward and just keep going basically, even if sometimes
Speaker:it doesn't feel like it's enough, it is a step forward.
Speaker:So go for it.
Speaker:Absolutely love that.
Speaker:Hopefully it's a step forward in the right
Speaker:direction as well.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean forward not backwards.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Perfect.
Speaker:So Heather, have you got something to share please?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I have a hopeful vision that Ronnie actually
Speaker:touched on already.
Speaker:But I'm really hoping to see accessibility built into
Speaker:higher education courses so that graduates leave uni or
Speaker:college or bootcamps with accessibility knowledge.
Speaker:I think that will be such a game changer for
Speaker:our entire industry.
Speaker:So yeah, I'm, I'm excited for that.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah, can't start it early enough.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I know that there is someone as well that I'd like
Speaker:to give a shout out to.
Speaker:Her name is Helen Wilson, and she's starting at the
Speaker:key stages for so primary education and introducing
Speaker:people to be a bit more knowledgeable about working
Speaker:with or understanding people who may have an
Speaker:impairment or disability
Speaker:so even earlier, it's just, yeah, it'll be incredible
Speaker:to see that go through the, the curriculum.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:Craig, Craig Abbott, have you got something to, to share?
Speaker:Yeah, I dunno about a vision, but I think in
Speaker:terms of a takeaway, I think like as Grant says,
Speaker:like accessibility's hard, and I think a good point
Speaker:to take away from this is that AI isn't gonna fix all
Speaker:your accessibility problems
Speaker:so just to kind of reiterate what Mark said, just
Speaker:get started, like, take an interest in it, but
Speaker:more importantly, take responsibility for your
Speaker:part of the thing because whether you're a designer
Speaker:or a developer or you know, you're writing Jira tickets
Speaker:or whatever, you've got a part to play in terms of making
Speaker:sure accessibility gets done
Speaker:so, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So we doing a bit, if I, if I could just
Speaker:jump in there as well.
Speaker:AI isn't gonna fix it and overlays aren't
Speaker:gonna fix them either.
Speaker:I'm just wondering whether anyone else
Speaker:was gonna mention that.
Speaker:Yeah, it's meant to be a positive episode.
Speaker:Let's not give them the time of day.
Speaker:No, I appreciate that.
Speaker:Ronnie, are you gonna come to you next?
Speaker:, Yeah, well I had Hannah took my spot away.
Speaker:No, no shade so I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually cross
Speaker:daggers with Grant a bit 'cause I would say
Speaker:accessibility isn't that hard.
Speaker:It's hard.
Speaker:He does have a point.
Speaker:Don't get me wrong.
Speaker:It can be very hard, but I would argue that most
Speaker:of the things that we can solve that make better and
Speaker:accessible experiences for people at large scale aren't
Speaker:that hard, but it does require a certain level of
Speaker:automation, a certain level of education, a certain level of
Speaker:awareness through education.
Speaker:So, so, yeah.
Speaker:Yes, accessibility is hard, but it doesn't have to be.
Speaker:Doesn't need to be.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:And last, but by no moment no means least
Speaker:we're gonna go with Dani Devesa Derksen-Staats.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:, Can you hear me?
Speaker:They can.
Speaker:So yeah, I want a t-shirt with all of them.
Speaker:Like if they gimme a pound every time I, I said
Speaker:progress over perfection, cultural change takes time.
Speaker:Just get started.
Speaker:It's not that hard.
Speaker:It can be hard.
Speaker:I have a short one and another don't want, if it's
Speaker:okay, like the short one.
Speaker:Yeah, of course.
Speaker:I dunno, I dunno who said that, but I, I repeat it
Speaker:over and over as well.
Speaker:I saw someone say accessibility is
Speaker:not extra steps.
Speaker:It's steps missed.
Speaker:And I know that every time that someone says like,
Speaker:well, but it's going to take so much extra work.
Speaker:I really come to this one.
Speaker:And there's another one that is from Whitney is,
Speaker:usability and accessibility are twins separated at
Speaker:birth, same goals, but like two brothers in a fable
Speaker:they took different paths.
Speaker:Accessibility took a legal rights path.
Speaker:This gave it power, but not a lot of love.
Speaker:Usability took a user research path.
Speaker:This gave it a deep, deep insight, but
Speaker:not a lot of power.
Speaker:What happens when this two meet?
Speaker:Can we get deep insights and great power?
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The melding of two worlds or twins separated at birth.
Speaker:I mean, that's a, a great analogy.
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Incredible.
Speaker:Well, I wish I could stay on this call all day and
Speaker:all night with you, but unfortunately we all actually
Speaker:still have jobs to do.
Speaker:So, I'm gonna leave it there, but thank you all so
Speaker:so much for your time, all your wonderful insights,
Speaker:sharing with us all so openly as well and just yeah,
Speaker:giving us all of this time.
Speaker:So, you are all incredible.
Speaker:And just genuinely incredible people.
Speaker:You're dedicating your working lives and careers for the
Speaker:betterment of the web, and let's not forget for the user.
Speaker:I hope you've all enjoyed the chat, made some more
Speaker:connections, hopefully in the space, and we continue to
Speaker:grow together as a community.
Speaker:So thank you to all of our listeners.
Speaker:Wishing everyone a very happy Global Accessibility Awareness
Speaker:Day or GAD 2025 and hopefully see you on the next one.
Speaker:Thanks again.
