Episode 17

full
Published on:

28th Apr 2025

Zoe Portlock - Accessibility Lead at Hargreaves Lansdown

🎙️ The Digital Accessibility Podcast – Zoe Portlock

In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, we sit down with Zoe Portlock, Accessibility Lead at Hargreaves Lansdown, who brings a powerful mix of user-centered design expertise, lived experience, and strategic leadership to digital accessibility in the financial services sector.

From her role embedding accessibility into HL’s design and research functions to speaking at global events like axe-con, Zoe is helping shape a more inclusive approach to digital finance.

We discuss:

  • Building accessibility into process and culture – how Zoe has worked to make accessibility a standard part of HL’s products and services.
  • Creating inclusive research – the evolution of HL’s accessibility panel and how it helped shift accessibility research into the core of their UX practice.
  • The accessibility community – why connection with other specialists has been a critical part of Zoe’s journey, and which networks she recommends.
  • Lived experience and leadership – how Zoe brings personal insight into her professional work, and how she balances advocacy with objectivity.
  • Advice for new starters – practical tips for organisations just beginning their accessibility journey, and how to start small but meaningfully.

Whether you’re building accessibility into a legacy system or designing a product from scratch, Zoe’s approach offers useful, realistic strategies for embedding inclusion into digital design.

Follow Zoe Portlock:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoemportlock/

Follow Joe James:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/

Twitter (X): @A11yJoe

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PCRDigital

Transcript
Speaker:

Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility podcast.

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If you're looking to learn more about the field of

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accessibility,

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how to implement it within your role or your company,

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or to get advice on where to start or see how others have

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navigated complex issues that you may find along the way,

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then you're in the right place.

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I'm honoured to be able to share these insightful chats

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with thought leaders,

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advocates and practitioners of digital accessibility

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throughout this podcast and I hope you'll find it a useful

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resource.

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As always thank you so much for listening and I hope you

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enjoy the chat.

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Today, I'm excited to welcome Zoe Portlock,

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the accessibility leader at Hargreaves Lansdowne.

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With a strong background in user-centred design and a

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passion for digital inclusion,

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Zoe has been instrumental to embedding accessibility within

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HL's design and research processes.

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She's spoken at industry events like AxeCon and is an

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active member of the accessibility community,

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championing inclusive digital experiences.

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So welcome to the podcast Zoe, it's great to have you.

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Thank you, thanks for having me,

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it's a real honour to join the line-up that you've had on

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here.

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I just feel privileged,

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I'm starstruck every week to be honest, so every month,

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but really appreciate your time.

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Jumping straight in,

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as always I'd really like to find out sort of background,

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your sort of intro into accessibility,

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just a quick overview because I know my intro might not

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have been all-encompassing.

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Yeah sure, so Hi, I'm Zoe,

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accessibility lead at Hargreaves Lansdowne.

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I've been doing this for over six years,

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absolutely love it, I'm

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disabled myself and very much bring that experience in day

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-to-day, mixture of chronic illness,

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physical disabilities and our diversity and yeah,

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feel really lucky to be part of this community and

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industry.

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I'm always happy to talk about it.

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about what we've been doing at HL.

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Amazing, thank you.

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And yeah,

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so I guess your work with embedding digital accessibility

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at HL, Hargreaves Lansdown ,

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you've played a really key role in driving accessibility

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forward within the organisation.

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So I know that a lot of people may have already heard some

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talks and things on how you've done this,

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but could you share like key steps and strategies that

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you've used to make accessibility like a standard part of

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HL's processes, their products and their services?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I have quite a few things to say on this.

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So I really feel like disabled voices should be at the root

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of our efforts.

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So very much believe in the nothing for us without us

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mantra.

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So for me,

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like every accessibility journey has to start with buy-in

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and whether that is from the teams around you or whether

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that is with leadership,

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what really helped me was securing.

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and sharing those client stories, real clients.

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So they can just be untouchably impactful.

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They really, it just means giving visibility.

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It means that you're putting a face to that, you know,

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one in four people have a disability in the UK statistic.

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And especially when the service in my case is linked to

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people's savings and to their pensions,

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it's so important to have a human voice and face behind

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that.

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So to help me capture those client stories,

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so that I can really thank people for reaching out,

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because I do feel like we don't, if you have been wronged,

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or you have been blocked for completing a process as a

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disabled person, that company doesn't owe,

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you don't owe them more of your time to tell them the

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details of it.

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So when people do reach out, I just want to say like,

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thank you, I listen, I will act on this,

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and build those into relationships.

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So I have like a client facing accessibility inbox for

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this.

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And that that's just been such a good foundation to be able

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to give real client cases.

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But generally, my,

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the start of my approach was very grassroots,

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just to build up some interest on the ground,

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but then securing an exec sponsor.

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So if that's not necessarily just for budget,

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but also for momentum,

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and for representation in the rooms where it happens and

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where it matters.

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So like, for example, through my executive sponsor,

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we've been able to embed different accessibility capability

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requirements at each level of an engineering career

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development framework.

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So things like that,

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or being pulled into really big procurement contracts to

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make sure that this new system that they want to do all of

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the HL HR processes on is actually usable by disabled

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colleagues.

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So if it's not not even needs to be about budget,

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even it's just someone advocating for you in those rooms.

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But really, I started it started side of desk,

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and I just have this big passion and interest in how the

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different ways that humans can interact with digital

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technology in a way that meets their needs,

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and that is just in-containable.

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I find it so fascinating and cool.

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So, very early days,

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I put together these presentations with demonstrations of

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different assistive technology using our real website as

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the material.

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I remember one thing, the very first thing that I do,

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just to kind of hook people's attention,

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is explain about skip to main content links and how

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important they are,

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and have colleagues guess that if it wasn't there,

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how many times would someone have to press tab to get

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through the Mega-nav to the content.

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It was 156 times back then, so that would be brutal.

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Who has the time?

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I know.

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That is why that Skip to the Main Content link is in place.

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But it just opens eyes.

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And I find that the same with colour contrast.

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Once you tell people they can't unsee it,

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but that mega-nav |menu is now down to 16 tabs for the

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whole thing.

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So happy to say.

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But really, like,

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eye-opening stuff that's going to change people's views and

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open it up,

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that view of accessibility on a day-to-day scale as well.

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But really,

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I'd run that session with different disciplines,

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different product squads.

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Frankly, anyone that would listen to me, I'm autistic.

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And I think that accessibility is a special interest of

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mine.

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And it's why I have so much energy for this role,

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this industry, and this topic.

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And that energy that I can give to it has seemed to have

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been pretty infectious.

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So that's been good.

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But we've got a community.

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So we created a working group and an ambassador program,

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bringing together motivated colleagues across the business

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to work together in a way that improves our accessibility

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and really feel like we're making a difference for people.

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And those two initiatives are still running almost five

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years on now.

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We're still touching new ground and reaching new areas of

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the business.

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And in more recent times,

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when Hargreaves Lansdown have built their design system,

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I've been able to be part of that to relook at all the

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branding and make sure that the way we use our colours is

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accessible and discourage colour combinations that are not

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reliably readable.

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We even changed the brand font because it wasn't very

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accessible.

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I actually had some feedback come in.

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Someone said, oh, you're a financial services company.

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You earn enough money.

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to not be printing your letters in grey ink.

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And it's not that we were printing in grey ink,

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it was that the font was so thin that it always looked

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grey.

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Wow.

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So we've been able to influence those kinds of things and

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we also have compulsory e-learning for every single

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colleague so that they can learn the content basics for

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accessibility and how to use the brand excessively and

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communicate with each other in accessible ways.

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That's been a really big initiative that has had a really

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big impact over 2,500 people completed that.

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So it's not a small piece of work but also a good amount of

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impact.

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And now I'm mostly focused on supporting and enabling

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product squads and formalising discipline-specific

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standards and rather than...

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working on awareness anymore.

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I like to think we're past that step and now it's about

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giving people what they need to share the responsibility of

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accessibility and really own it as part of their job roles.

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But that is a six-year journey in probably just a few

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minutes with those highlights.

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Yeah, it's been really amazing, honestly.

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That's incredible and that's the thing, I mean,

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so many touch points and then even when you mentioned the

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font,

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it's funny because my wife gets letters quite consistently

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from Hargreaves Lansdown her workplace pension.

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She's like, oh my god, all these letters,

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but I hadn't noticed.

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I actually thought it was grey ink as well and it was

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something I was going to bring up off-call,

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but I'm glad you brought it up.

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But that's really interesting as well that it's literally

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the font size or how bold it is or how thin it is that can

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change something.

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And I guess that kind of also touches on the crossover when

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it's how much impact you can have from a digital

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perspective, but then that's hard print as well, you know,

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like the graphic design side of things as well.

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So that's really interesting.

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But you've obviously done so, so much, which is awesome.

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It takes years to change a font in every place ever.

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It was a fantastic piece of work.

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We did a lot of focus groups with disabled people and used

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a lot of client feedback over the years for a really good

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result.

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Yeah, brilliant.

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I think as well, is it the font in your branding as well?

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The actual name Hargreaves Lansdown on how that appears.

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Had that branding been changed?

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There's been rebrands as such over the years,

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but it's more our main body font that's in all the letters

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and all website and every touchpoint ever has taken us many

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years.

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It's bringing it to the fore, I suppose, isn't it?

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Like those incremental changes, but it's so apparent,

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you know, if you can, if you,

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if there's such a huge change and it's everywhere.

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That must feel like such a huge achievement.

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So yeah, awesome work.

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Awesome,

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so the second question that was sent over was about your,

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the accessibility research and your AxeCon panel,

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or the talk, sorry, that you gave at AxeCon,

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about creating an in-house research panel,

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comprising of Hargreaves Lansdown clients,

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which you touched on just then as well,

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clients with accessibility needs.

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Since then,

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I believe it's evolved a bit and the accessibility research

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is really embedded within the main sort of research

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function.

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So I know you've already done a talk on it and things

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might, but things might have changed,

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but could you sort of talk about that,

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if there's been any transition and any challenges?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So I presented something I was really proud of,

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AxeCon 2024.

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I think it was Capturing Disabled Voices,

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who's the name of the talk.

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I was really proud of it,

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but it changed direction very soon afterwards.

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So it's been odd when I get to discuss it with people,

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because people do bring it up to me and it's always so

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lovely when people have watched that talk and then I have

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to kind of say, actually that has now disbanded,

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something that I was shouting from the rooftops about and

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really encouraging.

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So really this all kind of comes down to one of those

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phrases that we have in the accessibility industry that is

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doing your job well is making yourself redundant.

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Ultimately the idea that if you're doing things right,

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accessibility should become totally integrated in your

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business processes.

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It's accessibility by design that you shouldn't need an

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accessibility expert in the room to make sure that disabled

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people's needs are considered and provided for.

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So what happened is that we moved that research panel from

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being like a side entity, a specialist almost extra,

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extracurricular into their day-to-day processes so that all

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the researchers could feel comfortable and confident enough

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to make sure that those voices are represented in the big

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pieces of research that we do,

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especially on stuff that is higher impact like the way the '

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contact us' area and the help area,

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all of that like we really need those voices especially

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then to make sure that we're supporting people right.

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So since it's just moved to be part of the general wider

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business user research processes and still very much

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working with them we do regular accessibility reviews of

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like the consent forms,

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the communications that go out to participants,

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the platforms that are used for signing a consent form for

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doing the research itself like the video calls but also

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things like the compensation or the almost incentives or

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rewards that you give people's time you know that is in the

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form of a high street voucher.

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vouchers, or supermarket vouchers,

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and that platform needs to be accessible.

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Otherwise, you know, you're rewarding people who,

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it's unfair,

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you're able to give some compensation to some people,

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but not others.

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So yeah, yeah, but we're still very much working together.

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So there is not a panel as such anymore.

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But it is not a bad thing,

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because those voices are very much still being heard,

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but with less active coordination on my part.

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And I still get to have really helpful conversations and

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client cases through that inbox that was used to help build

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the panel.

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But yeah, this happens in accessibility,

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you've got to sometimes let things fly free from being your

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baby, and things you set up to just being the norm,

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like that is the goal at the end of the day.

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That's what you want.

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for all of this and any accessibility project or

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initiative,

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but it just happened so soon after that talk that I was

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like, oh, okay, I guess that's out of date now.

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Oh, no, sort of pulled from under your feet a little bit.

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That's got to feel a little bit disconcerting,

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but at the same time, obviously, like you say,

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it's a huge positive, I think,

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because there's so many times where I have these

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conversations where I'm just like,

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but it should just be done anyway.

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And then it's like,

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I don't mean that to sort of belittle or undermine the hard

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work that needs to be done in the area,

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in the space of accessibility, but it's frustrating,

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I think, when things aren't accessible,

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because if they were done right the first time around,

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then yeah, no one would have jobs in this field,

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but it would actually be for the greater good.

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But yeah, I mean, that's, I mean,

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what a great achievement again,

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that it's sort of part of in-house processes and it's sort

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of being done, I'm sure that, like you say, time to time,

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you're stepping in and just like,

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just double checking you're still following processes and

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how things should be done.

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Yeah.

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Brilliant.

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Good stuff.

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And then,

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so next was about the sort of the strength in the accessibility

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community,

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which kind of speaks to that last point and the panel of

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the research processes and things.

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It's a really, really powerful aspect within this space.

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I feel so ingrained within it as much as I'm someone that's

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a recruiter and helping people find jobs within the space.

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I'm super passionate about accessibility and I think

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everyone within the community is as well.

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And how has, for you,

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how is connecting with other accessibility leaders and

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specialists influenced the work that you do at HL and the

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sort of direction of the program that you've helped to

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implement?

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I guess on top of that as well is if there's any key sort

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of resources or or groups that you'd like to share with the

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listeners, and then we can link them as well.

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So with that one, yeah,

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it felt like everything changed when I met a group of

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accessibility leads.

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Like it was game changing.

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It felt like the before days and the after days,

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once I had, once I was active in this community,

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the lessons that I've learned through a lot of people that

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have already been on this podcast and different champions

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groups and roundtables that we've hosted or attended,

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those lessons take years of internal work to gain

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otherwise.

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Like understanding what the relationship with a third party

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is like beyond a sales rep.

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You don't know that unless you've onboarded and completed

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work with them.

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You can ask very specific questions,

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you can even ask negotiation tips or compare coverage or

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contracts or anything like that to be like, oh yeah,

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I found this,

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I wish I'd invested more in this area or this was a problem

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I ran into down the line that I could have known about

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sooner.

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That understanding,

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just absolutely game-changing and like you said,

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everyone in this area is so passionate.

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They understand the burnout,

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the fight that you have to push forward every day,

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the nuances of such a complex discipline that is very much

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tied to disability rights and equality.

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On a personal level,

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it's been so nice to meet other disabled professionals,

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at conferences seeing other people with walking aids or

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service dogs and accommodations in place.

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It means a lot to me.

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It really does.

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Ultimately,

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we're all trying to do something pretty revolutionary,

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especially if you start the journey yourself,

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like I was lucky enough to.

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So trying to influence sometimes a global business,

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a massive business.

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We're UK-based,

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but I know people who are working for companies that have

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presence all over the globe and we're just convincing them

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to try and do the right thing.

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And it's not that they don't want to,

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it's almost that they don't know about it in the same way.

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It is pretty revolutionary when you look at the impact it

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can have as well.

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So the community completely leveled up my confidence and my

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instincts, the value I could see in my own work.

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It's one of the best things that's ever happened in my

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career.

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And it's so nice to get to share the pieces of work that

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I've poured all myself into as well.

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It really feels like both ways,

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like getting to share our two-year accessibility strategy,

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all the initiatives, all that experience.

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It's so amazing what you can gain from the community.

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community.

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But it also feels so nice to put back into it as well.

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But definitely a really good place to start is the

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Champions of Accessibility Network on LinkedIn.

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That is a fantastic group of people.

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They have monthly video calls with different speakers.

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I've presented in that and it's such a lovely supportive

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community.

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But there's also,

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it's like a Slack channel as well that's really good for

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technical questions.

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And all of us are so happy to introduce you to different

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people.

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I've met, yeah, so many people through like, oh,

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do you know about this person yet?

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Have you met them?

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Let's do an intro.

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Like that community.

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It's just, yeah,

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I can't believe I ever did it myself without, without them.

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And especially when it's,

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I'm very lucky to have a team and a lot of people are just

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one person and they might not even be on accessibility 100%

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of the time.

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So just to have a space to talk to people,

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it can be really lonely before you get deeply involved.

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You're trusting your instincts.

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You're trying to do all you can, but yeah,

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finding that group of people who are doing the same thing,

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the same fight, just absolutely game changing.

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Yeah.

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Oh, incredible.

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And yeah, I mean,

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I'm part of the @A11ySlack and the CAN group as well,

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and been very privileged to put my two cents in on one of

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those calls in the past, which it was just great.

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:

And then I huge imposter and I think loads of people in the

455

:

space.

456

:

I think it's a part of, um, there are so many people,

457

:

like you say, that are one man bands or one person bands,

458

:

um, that are doing it all on their own.

459

:

And then where do you get that feedback from other than,

460

:

Oh, shall I ask chat GPT?

461

:

Is this correct?

462

:

Don't do that.

463

:

Um, or, you know,

464

:

so if you've got that community where you can go to other

465

:

people that have done this or, um, and I guess it's,

466

:

it's a free resource as well.

467

:

Um, whereas I,

468

:

obviously there are amazing consultancies out there that

469

:

specialize in this.

470

:

And if they're,

471

:

if they're paid and they're brought in house,

472

:

they will have experience from my multitude of different

473

:

clients you'd hope where they've done that sort of stuff

474

:

before.

475

:

And then you can learn from that experience as well.

476

:

But I think alternatively and the, the,

477

:

not that the way that you can gain that information without

478

:

the expensive resource or without having to get more buy in

479

:

and more budget from an executive sponsor is, yeah,

480

:

just reach out.

481

:

I mean, everybody's so friendly and it's just,

482

:

it is like you say,

483

:

game changing because I've worked in tech recruitment for

484

:

eight years and I've been doing accessibility as part of

485

:

that for the whole time.

486

:

But when I wasn't focusing purely in this space,

487

:

it was so hard to find proper groups of people that would

488

:

share because it's, it is very,

489

:

everyone's trying to get ahead of one another, you know,

490

:

tech changes so, so often,

491

:

which is another reason why we need accessibility

492

:

specialists to be on their game as well,

493

:

because everything's changing.

494

:

But, yeah, it's one of those,

495

:

it's just a fantastic community, so I couldn't agree more.

496

:

Sorry to just double down on everything you've just said,

497

:

but yeah.

498

:

All good.

499

:

Awesome.

500

:

So then the,

501

:

it's a really sort of shift as well with this next

502

:

question,

503

:

and it's balancing sort of personal experience or lived

504

:

experience, as some people may refer to it,

505

:

with the sort of professional advocacy.

506

:

I think a lot of imposter syndrome on my side is because I

507

:

don't identify as someone that is living with a condition

508

:

or a disability.

509

:

So I find it quite hard to speak on behalf of others as

510

:

much as I try to advocate for.

511

:

accessibility and the reason why it's so important.

512

:

But as someone with lived experience of various

513

:

disabilities, as you mentioned, or conditions,

514

:

how have you how do you navigate the balance between

515

:

bringing your own personal insights into your work,

516

:

but maintaining that sort of objective and professional

517

:

approach within a financial services company of all places

518

:

as well?

519

:

Totally.

520

:

Yeah, I've been on a real journey with it,

521

:

with how much I put in with myself.

522

:

So, like initially,

523

:

that lived experience played a real big part in my impact,

524

:

I think that visibility, that education,

525

:

just being in the office,

526

:

having a very different chair to other people,

527

:

having a very different keyboard and desk setup or monitors

528

:

that are tinted purple, just visibility, like my glasses,

529

:

I have purple tinted glasses for Irlen syndrome.

530

:

So I found that that visibility can make a really big

531

:

difference.

532

:

And your early advocates or allies are often people who are

533

:

either disabled themselves or have a very close by loved

534

:

one, or child or sibling or friend or family member,

535

:

often to get that first buy in.

536

:

That visibility of disability is really important and

537

:

powerful.

538

:

And there's so many people in this community that don't

539

:

identify with having access needs or disabilities.

540

:

So I would say maybe like a third of us maybe have lived

541

:

experience.

542

:

So don't worry too much.

543

:

You're doing good.

544

:

We need able bodied or neurotypical people to help with

545

:

this.

546

:

It wouldn't be a big enough influence if it was just us.

547

:

So props to you.

548

:

Your concern on that too much.

549

:

But yeah, so I used to lean on my experience a lot,

550

:

like in a personal note though.

551

:

asserting those needs and rights and directly linking it to

552

:

your role is a lot of significant emotional labour and it

553

:

can also feel like if you face challenges,

554

:

if you face pushback or blockers when you've tied it up

555

:

with your identity that can feel personal and it's not but

556

:

when you're putting all you have in and part of that is

557

:

being visible,

558

:

being in the room and speaking up when your initiatives

559

:

don't get prioritised or you're not engaged with on certain

560

:

things it can feel can feel more personal than it might for

561

:

other jobs I would say.

562

:

And that could all add up and it's very easy to naturally

563

:

fall into focusing on colleague accessibility which you

564

:

know making sure that other people are having reasonable

565

:

adjustments put in place,

566

:

advising on what assistive technology might be helpful,

567

:

and advocating that they get official training rather than

568

:

it coming to you for tips.

569

:

Once it's colleague, it gets really personal.

570

:

And at some point, I had to draw a line and kind of say,

571

:

all right,

572

:

I need to lock in on client accessibility as much as

573

:

possible and support product teams rather than being super

574

:

close to disabled employees at HL.

575

:

I consult here and there absolutely.

576

:

And I also do cross-platform like you mentioned earlier

577

:

with like letters,

578

:

but it's hard not to get super sucked into diversity

579

:

networks.

580

:

And all of that, like I set one up,

581

:

but I had to hand it over because it's just not

582

:

sustainable.

583

:

And I learned to, you know,

584

:

lean into those real client stories.

585

:

That's a way to take you out of it a bit and make it about

586

:

your products and your client base.

587

:

But it's a careful balance for sure.

588

:

And I can still lean into my background and my community

589

:

when close colleagues come to me for like personal advice,

590

:

whether that's parents exploring a diagnosis of something

591

:

for their child,

592

:

or even what do you do to manage chronic eye strain?

593

:

What can I access?

594

:

What are my options?

595

:

You know, what can I learn from you?

596

:

But you really can't do it all,

597

:

especially when you work part-time.

598

:

And I had to kind of learn to protect my piece.

599

:

But it's also amazing to get a chance to represent the

600

:

community and teach people this nuance.

601

:

And we were talking a little earlier about etiquette and

602

:

language and nuance and just the reality of what language

603

:

can mean at the same time,

604

:

making people feel not too scared to speak at all.

605

:

It's okay to ask how you identify if talking earlier about

606

:

identity first or person first language.

607

:

So whether you would say person with a disability or a

608

:

disabled person and what groups especially tend to have a

609

:

really strong opinion on that or as a user researcher how

610

:

you start how you ask or if you mirror the language

611

:

someone's giving you and that kind of thing.

612

:

It's been really valuable but at some point you really have

613

:

to kind of lean on those connections that you've been

614

:

building with through a research panel or an inbox because

615

:

it's not sustainable I mean you almost run the risk of

616

:

becoming Dr Zoe Portlock as well like you say if people are

617

:

asking for how do I get a diagnosis on this or almost

618

:

risking asking you to diagnose them.

619

:

If you're associated with that, you know, that space, then,

620

:

and then it's like, well, I don't,

621

:

it's a lot of pressure on you,

622

:

because not only do you have a job to do,

623

:

you're obviously very empathetic towards people, you know,

624

:

if you see someone struggling, you're like,

625

:

I want to help them, and what can I do, but then it's,

626

:

yeah, you've got, again, I think you worded it perfectly,

627

:

protecting your peace.

628

:

I think it's,

629

:

it's a really wise thing to have to try and do.

630

:

Yeah, and I say this as well, generally,

631

:

that I can't separate myself from my disabilities,

632

:

and I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't want to.

633

:

But then I still need to speak about it enough to arrange

634

:

reasonable adjustments, and all of those kinds of things.

635

:

So it's such a balance.

636

:

But I think, yeah,

637

:

the risk of burnout is much higher when you're,

638

:

you're involved in every part of accessibility in an

639

:

organisation.

640

:

But I do love getting to represent the reality of things

641

:

sometimes, like breaking down, actually,

642

:

how many people who,

643

:

I'd say registered as visually impaired,

644

:

that's a whole other thing.

645

:

But how many people actually read Braille, or use Braille?

646

:

And the numbers are so much smaller than people might

647

:

think, because then you're like, well,

648

:

when and how would someone learn Braille?

649

:

Well, you know, they might learn it at school, it's like,

650

:

well, they might have had to go to a specialist school,

651

:

which means they may have had those challenges earlier in

652

:

their life,

653

:

they may have been born blind or born visually impaired.

654

:

And if you acquire that in your adult life,

655

:

where do you go to learn Braille?

656

:

Who helps you learn Braille?

657

:

And how that into...

658

:

with technology,

659

:

with mobile screen readers becoming so helpful and strong

660

:

and present and looked after,

661

:

that the use of those is easier to learn than a physical

662

:

language as such.

663

:

Yeah.

664

:

So all of those nuances,

665

:

we just kind of assume sometimes that people know these

666

:

things that are the top level understanding of a

667

:

disability, but actually there's so much more to that.

668

:

Yeah, sorry.

669

:

And with BSL as well,

670

:

the amount of people who are day-to-day users of that and

671

:

the amount of people who have learned it for the early

672

:

stages of their child's development,

673

:

to use it as to communicate, that...

674

:

when and if that child becomes verbal and develops that way

675

:

of communication, it drops off that usage.

676

:

And what that does to statistics of who is learning BSL,

677

:

how common is it to using complex conversations and not

678

:

just about basic needs that you may use to help communicate

679

:

with the child early on.

680

:

I called it all of these fits, all of that nuance.

681

:

I love getting to to dive into it and talk about it.

682

:

It's fascinating stuff.

683

:

It is absolutely.

684

:

And when you mentioned about Braille and bringing it,

685

:

you know, into the digital accessibility side of things,

686

:

when I was fortunate enough to be at Mimouna,

687

:

Madaoui has got a fantastic workshop that she's doing at

688

:

Stepstone Group.

689

:

And there was a discussion about questioning the group,

690

:

you know, how much do you think a Braille display,

691

:

a refreshing Braille display costs?

692

:

And, you know,

693

:

the cost of accessibility to the user is phenomenal.

694

:

You know,

695

:

thousands of pounds for a refreshing Braille display you

696

:

can spend and even to create Braille books.

697

:

It's such an almost ancient, it's not ancient,

698

:

but a very old school technology.

699

:

And the cost to print Braille is insane.

700

:

It's just why is it?

701

:

I mean,

702

:

I know that obviously there's this scarcity in the market.

703

:

Maybe it's not as high demand,

704

:

so there's not been that innovation.

705

:

But there's every every industry is innovating.

706

:

So why aren't we focusing in,

707

:

why isn't there more innovation in that sort of space in

708

:

terms of those?

709

:

Yeah.

710

:

I have a hot take on that with the cost of everything.

711

:

People generally don't understand how expensive wheelchairs

712

:

are,

713

:

even the most basic example and where that funding comes

714

:

from, because.

715

:

it is a postcode lottery whether you get a grant towards

716

:

the cost or not and you have to choose between a some

717

:

schemes you have to choose between having help towards an

718

:

electric wheelchair or towards a car and that's one of the

719

:

best schemes out there but yeah the cost of things so I

720

:

have a bit of a theory which is that so JAWS the screen

721

:

reader is very expensive and there is a free version ish

722

:

you know an alternative MPDA I think that some technology

723

:

is priced up because they rely on employers to cover that

724

:

cost when they put that in place so they don't almost the

725

:

price of stuff isn't necessarily expected to be the

726

:

individual paying that It could be access to work.

727

:

It could be disabled students allowance.

728

:

It could be the employer covering it.

729

:

Like, I think there's something there with that.

730

:

I hope they're not expecting people to drop thousands a

731

:

year on an updated license.

732

:

And that's with the rise of the internet and smartphones.

733

:

It's amazing that that kind of technology now isn't only

734

:

accessible through those expensive routes.

735

:

It's built in and it's good quality.

736

:

So it is interesting to see that shift over time.

737

:

But yes, the cost of stuff.

738

:

People just, unless you have that insight,

739

:

they just don't know.

740

:

But it's thousands and thousands to get the things you need

741

:

to do to be able to leave the house half the time.

742

:

Just like how,

743

:

I was on the waiting list to have help towards an

744

:

accessible bathroom adjustment for five years.

745

:

Like, what do you do in that time?

746

:

And the nuance of dealing with care agencies even,

747

:

or how people assume that you don't have a job or don't

748

:

work.

749

:

Or if you are working that you're actually volunteering.

750

:

Like, there's so much there.

751

:

And I love to be able to explain that to people and kind of

752

:

give them a little insight into it.

753

:

Because I wish those kinds of things were more common.

754

:

There's a lot in the news right now around benefits and I

755

:

won't get into it.

756

:

But if people knew the reality of what it's even like right

757

:

now,

758

:

half of the stuff that is being said would not be said.

759

:

And that's,

760

:

it's another sort of point on sympathy versus empathy as

761

:

well.

762

:

I think a lot of there's,

763

:

I read a lot in that sort of language when it comes from

764

:

the government and schemes and things around benefits where

765

:

they're sympathetic,

766

:

but they're not in any way shape or shape.

767

:

form empathetic they're not putting themselves in the shoes

768

:

of others and even trying to understand the struggles

769

:

they're just oh I feel for you but you know our deficit

770

:

that we've created is more important but anyway sorry we'll

771

:

try not to get too political.

772

:

I'm trying not to get too political when this was recorded

773

:

things were going DOWN but I will reign it in as I do at

774

:

work.

775

:

I think this is recorded but yeah not a good time but we we

776

:

will see we will see and that's why I think another you've

777

:

probably actually given me the title for the episode where

778

:

you said accessibility is like a revolution and I do think

779

:

that that's the case and it's they're risking it for a full

780

:

full on full full frontal assault of uh yeah accessibility

781

:

professionals,

782

:

let's rise up.

783

:

A revolution that should have never needed to happen in the

784

:

first place, and that's part of the problem.

785

:

But, you know, it's good,

786

:

but it does sometimes feel revolutionary,

787

:

and that's exciting to get to be part of that,

788

:

but also frustrating that it's even needed.

789

:

So there's a lot going on when you work in this area,

790

:

but it's also absolutely brilliant,

791

:

and I can't imagine doing anything else with my life.

792

:

And super rewarding,

793

:

as much as at times it might feel that you're not getting

794

:

anywhere with things, or things are falling on,

795

:

they're just not happening, and you're pushing and pushing,

796

:

but I think there are always going to be, I mean,

797

:

what you've spoken about over the six years with HL as

798

:

well,

799

:

and it's nice probably to reflect and think, oh yeah,

800

:

do you know what, I've actually achieved so much.

801

:

But brilliant,

802

:

and I guess that brings me to our final question,

803

:

which is advice for organisations who are just starting

804

:

out, shouldn't be,

805

:

but they are just starting out on their accessibility

806

:

journey,

807

:

and if there's any advice you'd give for like step one,

808

:

you know,

809

:

what's the smallest thing they can do to really sort of

810

:

build internal capability and engaging with the community?

811

:

I love that.

812

:

I think, especially if it's from scratch, your advocate,

813

:

your lead in this,

814

:

you need to have a real good foundational knowledge in

815

:

order to be able to teach the people around you,

816

:

in order to know when training is good quality,

817

:

if you're investing in it,

818

:

you need to have a foundation of knowledge.

819

:

And being 2025, there is so much out there already,

820

:

but that foundation of knowledge will propel you forward,

821

:

it can help you hire the right people,

822

:

it can help you know when to lean into different aspects.

823

:

aspects of the business case for different people,

824

:

and that foundation,

825

:

it can be built in a whole range of ways,

826

:

and it does not need to be formal training.

827

:

It doesn't, you know,

828

:

there's years and years of Deque's AxeCon conference

829

:

recordings available right now, including my own,

830

:

not to plug, but yeah,

831

:

there's years of really niche talks that are beyond just,

832

:

this is why this is important,

833

:

and this is what alt text is.

834

:

It is niche industry stuff.

835

:

The different tracks being success with accessibility in an

836

:

organisation.

837

:

Honestly, AxeCon, when I first discovered that,

838

:

mind was blown, and I learned so much.

839

:

And it can also help empower your teams and different

840

:

disciplines as well,

841

:

because there will be stuff there for them.

842

:

It's not all expert level stuff, there is some beginner,

843

:

but it just, it's really in depth,

844

:

really in depth and it's brilliant,

845

:

it's a brilliant resource.

846

:

But also joining things like the accessibility,

847

:

the champions of accessibility network on LinkedIn: 'CAN'.

848

:

Reaching out, making use of that community online.

849

:

So posting in that group, joining that Slack channel,

850

:

all of those kinds of things.

851

:

And like I said, you know,

852

:

I do come from a super privileged position in this

853

:

industry.

854

:

I work for a financial services company who back me in what

855

:

I'm trying to do.

856

:

I have had budget to work with third parties.

857

:

I was even able to build a team. Karl Goldstraw, shout out,

858

:

my fellow accessibility expert at HR.

859

:

Love that man.

860

:

Yeah, legend.

861

:

Tackle it all together.

862

:

But, you know,

863

:

I've been so lucky to be doing this job 100% of my time and

864

:

to have to be able to hire someone in to do it with me.

865

:

But there's so much out there because like I said,

866

:

I'm in financial services,

867

:

but loads of people come at this from charities or local

868

:

organizations or public services.

869

:

And you're not alone in that.

870

:

You can find other people working for similar places and

871

:

see what worked for them,

872

:

how they've kind of made the most of the resources that

873

:

they have or don't have.

874

:

You know, budget will be it.

875

:

I'm so privileged to speak a bit like this.

876

:

But yeah,

877

:

there's just a lot of people out there doing it with very

878

:

different levels of buy in, different levels of resource,

879

:

different levels of influence.

880

:

And together, you can really learn so much.

881

:

So, you know,

882

:

put aside a Friday afternoon every week and just dive in

883

:

and soak it all up whilst establishing those feedback

884

:

channels so that you can build those stories because

885

:

bringing that excitement and knowledge a lot.

886

:

alongside a real client, a real person telling you,

887

:

maybe on a video call or a call recording about how you're

888

:

letting them down and not letting them have agency and

889

:

autonomy.

890

:

The combination of those two things can actually get you

891

:

places.

892

:

So yeah, I'm so grateful for the community.

893

:

It literally changed everything.

894

:

And I could not be recommending diving in enough.

895

:

I love this topic.

896

:

I love this industry and community.

897

:

And like you say, there is so much, I guess,

898

:

that I would jump in there then to say, yeah,

899

:

if you're going to dive into the AxeCon free resources,

900

:

the on-demand stuff, start with Zoe's talk,

901

:

which was Capturing Ddisabled Vvoices,

902

:

which there's a lot of talk about shifting left.

903

:

There's a lot of talk about starting everything earlier in

904

:

the design and development process.

905

:

But I think that the research is actually,

906

:

probably where it should all start.

907

:

Because before you actually even put pen to paper or start

908

:

creating wireframes or any kind of design,

909

:

what are you actually designing for?

910

:

Who are you designing for?

911

:

What needs to be considered?

912

:

So the only way you're gonna find that out is by capturing

913

:

disabled voices and starting that research early on.

914

:

So yeah,

915

:

I know it's tricky because it can be a bit of a minefield.

916

:

I felt very overwhelmed with a lot of the information.

917

:

It's amazing that there's so much on there.

918

:

But when you're registered to Deque's AxeCon,

919

:

and you look through, I'm like, where do I start?

920

:

Where do I begin?

921

:

Is this relevant?

922

:

I'm just trying to sort of pick the bits out.

923

:

But I guess if you've got a specific problem,

924

:

then you can probably search within there and find

925

:

something that's relevant to yours as well.

926

:

Also, Scope are fantastic.

927

:

We're talking about identity and nuance,

928

:

the way that they advocate and communicate.

929

:

I will always start there.

930

:

So Scope for business especially is a really good angle in

931

:

terms of making influence on accessibility.

932

:

I would so recommend Scope and also recommend the social

933

:

model and the medical model of disability and being aware

934

:

where those influence and promoting,

935

:

but it's not necessarily the medical diagnosis, for

936

:

disabled people, it is the systems around us.

937

:

100%, amazing.

938

:

Well,

939

:

I'm going to make sure that there's going to be links to

940

:

all of those resources as part of the info on this episode,

941

:

so brilliant.

942

:

And then if you've got any final thoughts,

943

:

so if you'd want to share anything, if there's any,

944

:

I don't know, events or upcoming initiatives.

945

:

So even if you just want to have a little rant,

946

:

you can get political for a little bit, that's fine.

947

:

Well,

948

:

I suppose I'd start with the next step for me is we're

949

:

getting the opportunity to rebuild and restart our app and

950

:

website.

951

:

I'm so excited to be in there and not a blocker,

952

:

not talk about technical there or not cause too much

953

:

trouble, but just do it a gold standard from the beginning.

954

:

I'm really energised by that at the moment,

955

:

and I know there's privilege to that as well.

956

:

I'm so fortunate to be involved with the right things at

957

:

the right time.

958

:

But if I am to say anything else,

959

:

I suppose if you're listening still,

960

:

feel free to add me on LinkedIn.

961

:

If you are in the Southwest of England or Bristol,

962

:

let me know.

963

:

We like to organise regular face-to-face meetups and I can

964

:

loop you into those things.

965

:

But otherwise,

966

:

thank you for listening to me vent and rant and fangirl

967

:

about this industry for however long this podcast has been.

968

:

I couldn't have said it better myself.

969

:

Thank you, Zoe.

970

:

Yeah, just really appreciate everything you're doing,

971

:

everything you've done and the time you've given to me as

972

:

well.

973

:

I really,

974

:

really appreciate you being on the podcast and it's been so

975

:

lovely getting to know you and your colleague, Karl,

976

:

sort of in the last few months, really.

977

:

I've known of you and I've fangirled myself from a

978

:

distance,

979

:

but now it's really nice to actually get to talk to you and

980

:

I feel extremely privileged that I get to.

981

:

So thank you for sharing everything and being so candid and

982

:

open.

983

:

And yeah, I'll see everyone on the next one.

984

:

Great, thank you!

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About the Podcast

The Digital Accessibility Podcast
Interviews with Digital Accessibility Leaders
In The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Accessibility Leaders are interviewed by Joe James about the importance of digital accessibility in business and society.

Joe is a Digital Accessibility Recruiter at PCR Digital with an inquisitive mind and a passion for the space.

Tune in for key insights, personal accounts, and takeaways about the importance of digital accessibility, told by experts.

Contact: joe.james@pcrdigital.com
PCR Digital: https://www.pcrdigital.com/

About your host

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Joe James

Hi! I'm Joe. I'm a Technical Recruitment Consultant who's worked in a huge variety of industries. Having worked to hire specialists for one of the world leaders in digital accessibility, my own passion for and interest in the field has grown.

My aim is to chat with thought leaders and advocates within the space to raise more awareness of the field in general and help to understand what we can all be doing to ensure all areas of the web/technology are accessible to everyone.