Amy Low - CEO of AbilityNet
The Digital Accessibility Podcast – Amy Low
In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Joe James is joined by Amy Low, CEO of AbilityNet, a UK charity that has been transforming lives through technology for over 25 years.
Amy shares her unexpected journey into accessibility, moving from a career in commercial property and global operational leadership into the charity sector, where she now leads an organisation dedicated to making the digital world more inclusive.
We discuss:
- A non-traditional path into accessibility: How Amy’s career in sales, operations, and transformation shaped her approach to leadership at AbilityNet.
- Empowering individuals and organisations: The role AbilityNet plays in supporting both disabled people and businesses to remove digital barriers.
- Embedding inclusion beyond products: Why accessibility is as much about people and culture as it is about technology.
- Opportunities in inclusive hiring and training: Where Amy sees the most potential for lasting change in the workplace.
- The impact of accessibility work: Practical ways to create measurable, positive outcomes for communities and organisations.
This conversation offers a unique perspective from a leader who bridges commercial insight with social impact, showing how accessibility can be embedded at every level of an organisation.
Follow Amy Low:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-low-abilitynet-accessibility-digital-inclusion/
Follow Joe James:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/
Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/A11yJoe
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PCRDigital
Visit PCR Digital:
Transcript
Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.
Speaker:If you're looking to learn more about the field of
Speaker:accessibility, how to implement it within your role
Speaker:or your company, or to get advice on where to start or
Speaker:see how others have navigated complex issues that you may
Speaker:find along the way, then you're in the right place.
Speaker:I'm honored to be able to share these insightful
Speaker:chats with thought leaders, advocates, and practitioners
Speaker:of digital accessibility throughout this podcast,
Speaker:and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.
Speaker:As always, thank you so much for listening, and
Speaker:I hope you enjoy the chat
Speaker:Today i'm really excited about our guest, someone who
Speaker:spent over a decade driving inclusive practices and
Speaker:making digital accessibilitya reality across industries.
Speaker:I'm joined by Amy Low, the CEO of AbilityNet, a UK
Speaker:based charity that's been transforming lives through
Speaker:tech for over 25 years.
Speaker:Amy's background spans both commercial and the
Speaker:charity sectors with a deep expertise in strategy,
Speaker:communications, and building inclusive communities.
Speaker:She's also a certified professional in accessibility
Speaker:core competencies, or CPAC, a champion of embedding
Speaker:inclusive principles, not just in products, but in
Speaker:people and culture too.
Speaker:We're gonna be diving into the real impact of accessibility
Speaker:work and how AbilityNet is empowering individuals and
Speaker:businesses alike, and where the biggest opportunities lie
Speaker:when it comes to inclusive hiring and training.
Speaker:So welcome to the podcast, Amy.
Speaker:Thank you and thanks for having me.
Speaker:It's an amazing podcast and you've had some
Speaker:fantastic guests in the back catalog, so I'm honored
Speaker:to be joining the party.
Speaker:The Honour is all mine and our listeners I'm
Speaker:sure will be very happy that you are with us.
Speaker:So thank you again.
Speaker:Can't wait.
Speaker:So I guess we'll kick things off.
Speaker:as always, we'd like to hear about, the sort of
Speaker:background of our guests.
Speaker:So could you tell us about a bit about your journey
Speaker:and what led you to, to work in the accessibility space
Speaker:and eventually take on the, the CEO role at AbilityNet?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Well, my journey into accessibility feels pretty
Speaker:non-standard, although talking to others in the space and
Speaker:listening to some of your previous podcasts, it does
Speaker:seem that it is quite common.
Speaker:I didn't come from a techie or a charity leader background.
Speaker:I studied languages at uni, and then I spent over 15
Speaker:years working in commercial property, so predominantly
Speaker:for the Regis Group who were the world's largest
Speaker:provider of flexible offices.
Speaker:Whilst I was with them, I worked in a range of sales
Speaker:and operational leadership and transformation roles,
Speaker:firstly in the uk and then later as part of the global
Speaker:performance improvement team covering Europe, the
Speaker:Middle East, and Africa.
Speaker:I guess I've always needed to feel a strong purpose
Speaker:from the work that I do.
Speaker:And when I was at Regis, this meant empowering organisations
Speaker:of all shapes and sizes to achieve their objectives and
Speaker:goals wherever in the world they wanted to operate and of
Speaker:course, technology played a really important role in this.
Speaker:I guess I learned ever such a lot along the way about.
Speaker:what makes organisations and people tick and how
Speaker:to deliver results and make impactful change.
Speaker:And when my daughter was quite small, I was
Speaker:finding travel, you know, increasingly challenging and
Speaker:wanted a change, I guess.
Speaker:And when I joined AbilityNet, it was a bit
Speaker:of a wild card opportunity.
Speaker:Put to me by a somewhat visionary
Speaker:recruitment consultant.
Speaker:She saw a, a sort of a tenuous fit between my skillset and
Speaker:what the charity was looking for and put me forward
Speaker:for the role of service delivery director and this
Speaker:involved looking after all of AbilityNets, delivery
Speaker:departments, including its digital accessibility
Speaker:consultancy team, now
Speaker:at that point, I didn't know anything about
Speaker:accessibility at all.
Speaker:and as I researched the opportunity, I kind of
Speaker:became aware of these amazing assisted tools that disabled
Speaker:people could use to access digital, which I didn't know
Speaker:anything about but then I also learned of these barriers that
Speaker:existed in the digital world and were preventing equitable
Speaker:access, even if people had the tech that they needed.
Speaker:And I guess this really pulled me up short.
Speaker:And I was kind of hooked by the mission and, and the role
Speaker:that AbilityNet could play in driving positive change.
Speaker:And then I really wanted the job.
Speaker:so.
Speaker:Thankfully the recruitment panel saw something in me
Speaker:and offered me the role and the rest is history.
Speaker:I've now been with a AbilityNet for nearly 10
Speaker:years, as you said, it's been the most amazing and rewarding
Speaker:experience as well as
Speaker:being a huge learning curve.
Speaker:I mean, every day definitely feels like
Speaker:a school day even now.
Speaker:I was honored to step up and take on the role of
Speaker:chief executive late last summer and just really
Speaker:feel super privileged to work in such an incredible
Speaker:sector and organisation.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:Well, amazing.
Speaker:And, yeah, I guess a bit non-conventional, the,
Speaker:the entry into the space.
Speaker:And as a recruiter, obviously I'm trying to
Speaker:make those connections.
Speaker:So it's great that that person, that recruiter
Speaker:saw that, in you.
Speaker:And it's, it's interesting 'cause a lot of
Speaker:recruitment, unfortunately, is keyword searching.
Speaker:So you could have been very easily overlooked
Speaker:if you didn't have the word accessibility
Speaker:or, or any sort of
Speaker:experience in, in your background, but it's nice that
Speaker:they saw, obviously you had lots of transferable skills
Speaker:and, and things to, that you could, take to the role at
Speaker:AbilityNet initially as well.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean that the others that were in the mix did
Speaker:have much more sort of.
Speaker:Conventional backgrounds, but luckily I, I, I managed to
Speaker:persuade them to take me in.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Well, yeah testament to you and your, your
Speaker:ability to interview.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:And it's obviously an, an excellent match, 10 years
Speaker:and you're now CEO of the company as well, of the,
Speaker:the charity and it's, yeah, just incredible what you've
Speaker:been doing over those, those last 10 years, which has
Speaker:sort of been when I've been aware of the space, so, yeah
Speaker:amazing what you've done.
Speaker:And it's, it's got a very unique blend of, of sort of
Speaker:charitable work, so supporting individuals with disabilities
Speaker:and advising global businesses on accessibility.
Speaker:So, do you see much evolution in, in the charity's mission?
Speaker:It's, it's very digital first in, in the world to date.
Speaker:and, and the rise of things like ai, sorry, but
Speaker:remote working as well.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, just for listeners who haven't come
Speaker:across AbilityNet before, our vision is a digital
Speaker:world accessible to all and for us that means
Speaker:individuals having access, adaptations, and skills
Speaker:to benefit from digital.
Speaker:organisations creating digital experiences that are optimized
Speaker:for the widest audience.
Speaker:And it also involves convening and supporting a community
Speaker:of practice to deliver this.
Speaker:And we've been doing this work for over 27 years
Speaker:now, so we've supported countless individuals and
Speaker:thousands of organisations, including some of the
Speaker:biggest brands on the planet.
Speaker:And you know, your reflecting your time in
Speaker:in the sector, Joe, a lot of progress has been made
Speaker:in that time, however.
Speaker:We are undoubtedly living in a really disrupted and
Speaker:volatile world, aren't we?
Speaker:and with the rate of change and innovation accelerating,
Speaker:it feels like our mission's never been more relevant,
Speaker:especially as digital begins to blend into the
Speaker:physical world as well.
Speaker:So one of our core values is innovation and when you
Speaker:sort of start to delve into innovation, it's amazing
Speaker:how much of, how many of the tools that we all use today.
Speaker:Came out of efforts to remove barriers for disabled people.
Speaker:and assistive technology's always been exciting and
Speaker:groundbreaking, but AI has come along and blown
Speaker:the doors off in terms of the art of the possible.
Speaker:And of course, this is incredibly empowering
Speaker:and transformative for individuals.
Speaker:And one of our key roles at AbilityNet is ensuring
Speaker:that people actually know about the tools that are
Speaker:available to support them.
Speaker:you know, in the services that we offer to end users,
Speaker:one of the most commonly heard quotes is, I wish
Speaker:I'd known about this before
Speaker:this, this is going to be just life changing for me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But sort of staying on ai, it obviously has, many,
Speaker:many positive use cases, but also immense potential
Speaker:to further exclude people.
Speaker:And AbilityNet has a mission and a duty.
Speaker:To make sure that accessibility requirements
Speaker:are understood and baked into the fantastic world that,
Speaker:that work that's taking place in the innovation space as
Speaker:well as in, you know, your, your average day-to-day
Speaker:digital developments.
Speaker:And I think the threshold to get involved in developing
Speaker:digital tools is, is becoming lower and lower and it's just
Speaker:making sure that guardrails are in place to prevent a mass
Speaker:proliferation of inaccessible digital experiences.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:so, sorry, go on, Joe.
Speaker:No, just on that, just on that point, just very
Speaker:briefly, it's, you are right.
Speaker:I think everyone now has the opportunity to become
Speaker:a, content producer.
Speaker:You know, we've all got social media profiles and
Speaker:things, so even on that smaller scale, not necessarily
Speaker:building products and, and websites, but yeah, so every,
Speaker:everyone's got their voice, but we wanna make sure that
Speaker:everyone's being considered.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:That's it.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:And, and I think there's a policy piece here.
Speaker:So some of the work that we do feeding into government policy
Speaker:and wider research is really helping the voices of disabled
Speaker:people to be represented.
Speaker:I think this is so important.
Speaker:It, if not the most important thing because.
Speaker:Unfortunately the populations working in tech do still
Speaker:lack diversity with disabled colleagues underrepresented.
Speaker:And that has a knock on effect on the ability of
Speaker:teams to know how to produce accessible experiences.
Speaker:So, so I think that's a really important area to think about.
Speaker:So you talked about evolution of our mission, and of
Speaker:course it is ever evolving to keep pace with change,
Speaker:but some of the fundamental areas that we impact,
Speaker:remain pretty similar, I would say awareness.
Speaker:Still an enormous challenge.
Speaker:We've got a really big job on our hands with
Speaker:our charitable activities to support digitally
Speaker:excluded and disadvantaged people to embrace tech.
Speaker:And then within organisations, despite working, you
Speaker:know, with a wide range of organisations on
Speaker:this over many years.
Speaker:It's such a very picture and in many organisations
Speaker:there's just this fundamental gap in understanding and
Speaker:confidence, which I think sometimes can, can, mean
Speaker:that people stick their head in the sand, they don't
Speaker:wanna do the wrong thing, so they don't do anything.
Speaker:and that's, a massive own goal, obviously.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Geez.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:you, you're so right.
Speaker:And that's the thing.
Speaker:It's the fear of of, of not knowing the right thing
Speaker:to say sometimes as well.
Speaker:I think that that's a huge education piece right.
Speaker:At the, at the forefront of accessibility is, is
Speaker:that education on how to speak to people with
Speaker:disabilities as well.
Speaker:I think there are, there's an ever increasing.
Speaker:Case in our lives and as we all grow older as well,
Speaker:that we'll come into contact with more people that
Speaker:experience an an impairment or have a disability or,
Speaker:we, we get that ourselves even with the temporary
Speaker:side of things as well.
Speaker:So it's, yeah, hoping that that work can be done, sort
Speaker:of more naturally, but, but the need to raise that
Speaker:awareness from the people that are in the know is really,
Speaker:yeah, really important.
Speaker:I think accessibility is quite often owned at a
Speaker:middle management level.
Speaker:and as a consequence, often the further up the tree you go
Speaker:in an organization, the worse that sort of situation gets,
Speaker:you know, and so having those discussions at the top table
Speaker:is quite important as well.
Speaker:Especially if you are going to properly embed
Speaker:digital accessibility in an organisation.
Speaker:It's a huge change management piece, and, and I think a
Speaker:lot of people underestimate that task and, and making
Speaker:sure that they're able to do that groundwork with
Speaker:stakeholders and get that goodwill and, and sort of.
Speaker:Spend adequate time on really agreeing where it
Speaker:is they want to get to.
Speaker:I know with the organisations we work with, increasingly
Speaker:we spending time working with clients to really
Speaker:coalesce stakeholders around a clear vision and ambition.
Speaker:Sometimes people say they wanna do something about
Speaker:it, but they're not really clear on what that is.
Speaker:so spending some time there, getting that down
Speaker:in their words and, and really, you know, getting
Speaker:that motivation going and then looking to those
Speaker:organization-wide roadmaps, you know, what do they need
Speaker:to do next to encourage challenge and motivate
Speaker:people to take action.
Speaker:And then from a practical sense, it has to live
Speaker:across the organisation.
Speaker:So if it's not a part of process flows, if it's not
Speaker:baked into policies and made as straightforward as
Speaker:possible, you are always gonna be reliant on the
Speaker:goodwill of individuals and it's just not sustainable.
Speaker:No, you're right.
Speaker:And all too often we hear that people do accessibility
Speaker:as a side of desk thing.
Speaker:It's something that they do because they've personally
Speaker:had that experience or awareness, but they don't have
Speaker:the clout, maybe, I suppose, in their role, within an
Speaker:organization to, to push for it or gain that buy-in and.
Speaker:They're doing great things, but then that
Speaker:can also just get lost.
Speaker:So once someone leaves an organization, they may have
Speaker:done some incredible things, but if a, say a developer or
Speaker:a designer comes in to replace that person that doesn't
Speaker:have that viewpoint, it can all just get lost and, and
Speaker:back to square one almost.
Speaker:So you are so right.
Speaker:I think, yeah.
Speaker:Baking it in across the organization is, is
Speaker:so key, to, to, well.
Speaker:Meaningful change.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:Otherwise a lot of energy can go into something
Speaker:that just rolls back.
Speaker:And I think sometimes these side of the desk
Speaker:heroes carry a hell of a lot on their shoulders.
Speaker:But also then there's this temptation within
Speaker:organisations to say, oh, you know, oh me,
Speaker:digital accessibility.
Speaker:Mary looks after that.
Speaker:And you know that naivety of.
Speaker:This is something that needs to live in everybody's
Speaker:work plan and just become part of quality assurance
Speaker:as much as anything else.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, so true.
Speaker:And, and that nicely brings us onto the next
Speaker:sort of, question around training and inclusion.
Speaker:So I know that ability, that Net does a lot
Speaker:of work supporting the education and training.
Speaker:Across the board.
Speaker:So from empowering students with disabilities to
Speaker:helping companies build that into their train,
Speaker:their own training modules.
Speaker:so what would you say the key, the key sort of
Speaker:ingredients would be for building a truly inclusive
Speaker:learning environment?
Speaker:both in education, but also in the workplace?
Speaker:It is really interesting.
Speaker:I mean, accessibility in the learning space
Speaker:is a fascinating area.
Speaker:l and d can be highly innovative and is
Speaker:often a newly adopter of new technologies.
Speaker:so many learning professionals that we meet who are.
Speaker:Just building their understanding around digital
Speaker:accessibility can start off by being a bit dismayed,
Speaker:because they, you know, they'll quickly discover that
Speaker:some of the tools they're using might be excluding some
Speaker:audiences, but on the flip side could be highly engaging
Speaker:and optimized for others.
Speaker:so I think the key to inclusive learning
Speaker:environments is, once again, awareness.
Speaker:clear communication and also accepting that it's all right
Speaker:to offer options to meet the learning and accessibility
Speaker:needs of diverse audiences.
Speaker:I dunno if you've come across Universal Design
Speaker:for Learning principles.
Speaker:I have very briefly, but yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, they'd seem eerily familiar to you because
Speaker:they're really close cousins to accessibility principles
Speaker:and you know, as with many contexts when you bake.
Speaker:Accessibility into the learning environment
Speaker:from the outset and offer different choices and ways
Speaker:to engage with learning.
Speaker:It tends to just make it richer and bring
Speaker:benefits to everyone that's experiencing it.
Speaker:I mean, when it comes to materials.
Speaker:Two, that relates specifically to learning
Speaker:about digital accessibility?
Speaker:I'd say some of the key ingredients that we look
Speaker:to inject to maximize impact and learning
Speaker:firstly, is storytelling, cannot over overstate the
Speaker:importance of, of, you know, lived experience
Speaker:to underlying messages.
Speaker:live demos, they, they speak a thousand words.
Speaker:Just showing people what a great experience looks like
Speaker:versus a terrible experience.
Speaker:And, I think people have a lot of questions.
Speaker:When it comes to digital accessibility, but again,
Speaker:going back to what we were saying earlier, there's a
Speaker:nervousness to ask them.
Speaker:So allowing plenty of time for q and A is important,
Speaker:allowing different methods to ask questions.
Speaker:We often have an anonymous way to ask questions
Speaker:'cause people are worried.
Speaker:Getting things wrong and giving people practical
Speaker:exercises to do.
Speaker:because again, it's a real learn by doing space.
Speaker:I think, our team absolutely love delivering training
Speaker:with, with most groups, you'll see light bulbs start
Speaker:to go off above people's heads and they get this kind
Speaker:of look in their eye and you think you can't wait.
Speaker:To run out the door and, and go start
Speaker:fixing things, can you?
Speaker:but I, I think it's really important before we move
Speaker:on there, to, to say that for effective learning to
Speaker:take place, it's important that training isn't just
Speaker:a tick box exercise.
Speaker:You know, it must form part of a wider change program.
Speaker:Otherwise the learning, even if it's really excellent,
Speaker:has got nowhere to go and people might stick
Speaker:back into, you know, how we've always done things.
Speaker:So when we're working with organisations, we always
Speaker:try to shape strategic learning interventions that
Speaker:that form a part of their overall maturity journey.
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:I've lost headphones.
Speaker:Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker:I'll just put my hands up for the editor so you can find,
Speaker:did the sound go funny then?
Speaker:No, it was fine.
Speaker:I'll be able to get that.
Speaker:Oh,
Speaker:I've lost you.
Speaker:Odd.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:And then when you pressed the button, it hung up on you.
Speaker:Oh, so, so that was all right.
Speaker:Was it?
Speaker:You don't think we need to redo that there?
Speaker:No, it'd be fine.
Speaker:We've got a, a, funnily enough, an AI model that, it
Speaker:enhances all of the sound.
Speaker:Oh,
Speaker:there we go.
Speaker:Oh my God.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I'm not touching them again.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I'm not gonna smile too much.
Speaker:Just bit echoy in this room, so I thought I'd be
Speaker:better off of headphones, but there we go.
Speaker:No, it's fine.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But the, the sound will be fine.
Speaker:We can actually, we can enhance it.
Speaker:So it actually sounds like we're using a, a proper
Speaker:studio and microphone.
Speaker:So I fool that.
Speaker:I know ai, one of the good things I can actually
Speaker:understand myself then.
Speaker:awesome.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So from that bit I was just going to mention, right.
Speaker:I'll try and, however be yes, the lived experience part,
Speaker:That's all amazing.
Speaker:I think one, one part that really stuck out for me, I was
Speaker:having a conversation just, on Thursday last week with
Speaker:someone who, mentioned how, how important, the, obviously
Speaker:the lived experience part is, and in that discussion
Speaker:we were saying that sometimes the imposter phenomenon or
Speaker:imposter syndrome in people that work in this space is
Speaker:because they feel that they, they don't have any legitimate
Speaker:personal experience, so they always feel they're
Speaker:talking on behalf of others.
Speaker:And what, it was Ben, Ogilvy actually from Touch in the us.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And he, he was saying that he, he's more than happy
Speaker:to lend stories, stories of things that have impacted
Speaker:him directly and that, like you say, the storytelling
Speaker:element is so important.
Speaker:And the live demos I think is a wonderful idea.
Speaker:I'm definitely someone that learns more from seeing or
Speaker:doing, and as much as I love.
Speaker:The idea of sitting down and reading a a book, sometimes
Speaker:it just doesn't go in.
Speaker:and I, I find myself rereading the same page a few times.
Speaker:attention spans quite poor these days, but, yeah, I
Speaker:think that that's, it's a wonderful thing and it's,
Speaker:it, I've learned so much from these conversations that
Speaker:I've had on the podcast and, and, you know, helping to
Speaker:hire people in the space and,
Speaker:Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I'm a
Speaker:professional myself in, in that, but I've gained an
Speaker:awful lot of knowledge and experience through others.
Speaker:so I think that's a wonderful way to go about things.
Speaker:And I bet it is the stories that has made it sick.
Speaker:'cause it, it certainly was for me, you know, when I
Speaker:was trying to learn about accessibility at a, a
Speaker:frenetic pace, when, when I took the job and, you know,
Speaker:just asking people to really explain it to me, you know,
Speaker:like I'm two years old, you know, and, and that just.
Speaker:You know, people sort of were like, okay.
Speaker:But then it led to them starting to tell stories,
Speaker:show me things, and, and then everything starts
Speaker:to kick into place.
Speaker:Does that, yeah.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:And you actually, you start to then identify things
Speaker:that, oh, actually this has directly impacted me or
Speaker:family members, you know, and it makes me think about
Speaker:my parents and my uncle.
Speaker:My uncle lives with Down Syndrome and severe autism,
Speaker:and it's, that's just so natural and normal for me
Speaker:because I've grown up with, with, you know, people with
Speaker:disabilities in my life.
Speaker:And I didn't really see it as, oh, you're gonna struggle
Speaker:to use technology, or you're gonna, you know, access your
Speaker:online bank account, you know.
Speaker:It is like actually it brings it much closer
Speaker:to home and, Normalizes things, it's not so scary.
Speaker:Then when you, when you sort of get familiarity.
Speaker:Yeah, we've got lots of team members who obviously
Speaker:have a lot of professional experience, but lived
Speaker:experience as well, and I think that can be really
Speaker:powerful in the learning space is people being
Speaker:able to talk from their professional viewpoint,
Speaker:but also sharing, sharing their own stories, so yeah.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Perfect.
Speaker:And that's the, I mean, community, and collaboration
Speaker:was another key topic that I was hoping to discuss.
Speaker:And that's one of the things that stands out about your
Speaker:leadership is that focus on the collaboration.
Speaker:So whether it's through Tech Share Pro, the conference,
Speaker:or partnerships with other organisations, it feels like
Speaker:you're always looking to just bring people together.
Speaker:It's much less divisive as, as you see in a lot of other
Speaker:sort of tech if, if it's tech first like communities.
Speaker:But, we have discussed recently how welcoming and,
Speaker:and collaborative the, the accessibility community is.
Speaker:So, do you feel that that is just essential to driving
Speaker:accessibility forward them?
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:And I think, interestingly, collaboration is
Speaker:another of our core values, that AbilityNet.
Speaker:And, you know, we consider it to be a strategic
Speaker:imperative if we are gonna make serious progress towards
Speaker:our vision of a digital world accessible to all.
Speaker:you might have heard the African proverb that goes, if
Speaker:you want to go fast, go alone.
Speaker:If you want to go far, go together.
Speaker:And I think this is most definitely true in the
Speaker:accessibility space.
Speaker:And you know, we are so proud to partner and collaborate
Speaker:with an amazing range of organisations and individuals
Speaker:that share our mission.
Speaker:you are so right.
Speaker:We love to take opportunities to convene the community.
Speaker:Our annual digital accessibility conference,
Speaker:tech Share Pro takes place every November.
Speaker:It's a hybrid event, and it's in its ninth year this year.
Speaker:It's attended by accessibility professionals and dare I
Speaker:say, rock stars from, you know, around the globe.
Speaker:And for me it's a massive high point of my year.
Speaker:I just buzz off that coming together to, to talk
Speaker:about what we've achieved and also to think about
Speaker:what we need to do next.
Speaker:I think when you and I first met, we talked about how
Speaker:lonely leading accessibility can feel inside some
Speaker:organisations, and we are lucky enough to have this
Speaker:really collegiate community.
Speaker:and, and you see how it brings strength and support and
Speaker:motivation, to, to folks who are doing the work to continue
Speaker:when the going gets tough.
Speaker:you know, the generosity as well that I see in the
Speaker:collaborative activities we both take part in and
Speaker:benefit from at AbilityNet is pretty humbling.
Speaker:Like you say, when you compare it with perhaps
Speaker:some other sectors.
Speaker:And I feel really lucky to work in this world.
Speaker:Oh, amazing.
Speaker:Well, we're lucky to have you in the, in the community
Speaker:and in the sector, and it's, it is, it's very humbling.
Speaker:And, and seeing all of that generosity and that kind of
Speaker:ends up leaching into other parts of your life as well,
Speaker:because if you're doing it for work, you know, you,
Speaker:you spend most of your, your, your life working.
Speaker:You know, you get two days off at a weekend if you're lucky.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and it's, I mean, yeah, it's.
Speaker:It's so nice to see because I have worked in other
Speaker:areas of technology and it's very much if you're
Speaker:working in a a greenfield sort of project and you.
Speaker:Trying to beat the competition.
Speaker:That's all gonna be under NDAs.
Speaker:It's locked away.
Speaker:No one else can know about it.
Speaker:We make strides with the strides forward with,
Speaker:with open source, sort of code and things like
Speaker:that, which is excellent, but it's always when.
Speaker:Someone else has had their use out of it.
Speaker:But with this, it needs to be driven together, I think.
Speaker:And yeah, you do just see people saying, oh,
Speaker:I figured something out.
Speaker:Why don't you use it on yours?
Speaker:You know, it's gonna help you too.
Speaker:And I do think that feeds into the, there is difficulty
Speaker:I think, sometimes where people unfortunately have
Speaker:the incorrect viewpoint of accessibility because it's
Speaker:for, I mean, we live in a, a, in England we live in,
Speaker:you know, a country where we're very, very fortunate
Speaker:to have things like the NHS.
Speaker:And people will unfortunately make the connection of
Speaker:if you're living with a disability or impairment, or
Speaker:you have a condition, you have access to free healthcare.
Speaker:So sometimes they liken that too.
Speaker:If something needs to be done to make things accessible for
Speaker:you, then it should be free.
Speaker:But actually, there's a cost to everything and it's still
Speaker:very much like you say, with the innovation, it's at the
Speaker:forefront of technology.
Speaker:So why shouldn't it be paid for, you know?
Speaker:And actually, there's real value in that and return
Speaker:on the investment too.
Speaker:But I'm, I'll digress.
Speaker:I, I could speak on that point all day long.
Speaker:I hear you.
Speaker:But anyway, so, I guess the next part would be,
Speaker:naturally I have to, or a recruitment consultant.
Speaker:I say too often people get bored with it.
Speaker:But, working within this field, I'd love to sort
Speaker:of get your thoughts on.
Speaker:on the, the, the hiring gap, I suppose, and, and
Speaker:that there are limited sort of skills, in this space.
Speaker:but what more do you think could be done to ensure
Speaker:that companies are, are sort of ready to support
Speaker:a more diverse workforce that includes people with
Speaker:impairments or disabilities?
Speaker:I mean, despite the growing awareness, there
Speaker:is that gap in terms of.
Speaker:The recruitment practices as well and, and people being
Speaker:able to apply for roles that they know that they could do.
Speaker:There's, there's just not enough disabled professionals
Speaker:represented in tech roles, which is a, a fact.
Speaker:but is there any advice you could give to employers
Speaker:that want to build more inclusive teams and, and
Speaker:what's the starting point?
Speaker:Sorry.
Speaker:I know it's a very long question.
Speaker:No, not at all.
Speaker:I mean, this is an area that I feel really passionately about
Speaker:the disability employment gap is pretty stubborn.
Speaker:I did see something recently that said representation
Speaker:of disabled people in tech roles is improving.
Speaker:So we are definitely starting to see traction.
Speaker:And you know, I think a lot of that is skills
Speaker:based and, and it is that, people are identifying
Speaker:great candidates, they are flexing their recruitment
Speaker:processes and their working policies to, to accommodate
Speaker:different ways of working.
Speaker:And they are, reaping the benefits.
Speaker:you know, at AbilityNet we've got a really high fraction
Speaker:of, of disabled colleagues and we are all the richer for it.
Speaker:and, and this directly translates into the quality
Speaker:and depth of support that we can offer to customers
Speaker:another one of our core values is inclusion.
Speaker:as you, as you might expect, and our HR department, our
Speaker:line managers and the team at large have got a really
Speaker:good grounding, inaccessible inclusive practices, not.
Speaker:Just in recruitment, but right along the employee journey.
Speaker:and, and, and no one sort of assumes they've got it nailed.
Speaker:We, we work with the wider team to gather feedback and,
Speaker:and continually co-design processes and improvements.
Speaker:I think this is another area where there's a
Speaker:lot of nervousness.
Speaker:It can be hard to determine priorities to get started.
Speaker:So, I would advocate always listening to
Speaker:feedback and looking for some quick wins there.
Speaker:There's usually loads of things that you can do inside
Speaker:your organization that cost nothing and is gonna make
Speaker:a lot of difference for disabled colleagues, but.
Speaker:The wider team as well.
Speaker:Again, it goes back to what I was saying when we were
Speaker:talking about learning, flexibility and choice is
Speaker:the most important thing.
Speaker:you may also identify some more fundamental changes
Speaker:that might need more effort, but are gonna have
Speaker:a really large and visible impact on an organization's
Speaker:employee experience.
Speaker:And, and that's really key.
Speaker:Reputationally can be really good for your
Speaker:brand as an employer.
Speaker:I think having an understanding of
Speaker:barriers is key.
Speaker:going round to recruitment.
Speaker:you'll probably be able to tell me this anyway, but
Speaker:you know, having a really clear set of instructions
Speaker:about what's gonna happen in a recruitment process.
Speaker:When it's gonna happen, high performance
Speaker:is gonna be scored.
Speaker:That kind of thing obviously is beneficial for everybody,
Speaker:but for perhaps neurodivergent candidates or candidates
Speaker:living with anxiety, you might struggle filling
Speaker:in the gaps around vague instructions and expectations.
Speaker:it that will be really, really important.
Speaker:And again, considering.
Speaker:Things like time to process.
Speaker:When you're asked a question, you know, the person who
Speaker:comes up with the quick and slick response isn't
Speaker:necessarily, you know, better than somebody who has to
Speaker:think a while, and often that candidate who gives it
Speaker:proper thought and responds.
Speaker:Is probably coming back with a more fully
Speaker:thought out response.
Speaker:But, you know, we've probably all had some
Speaker:biases in the past when we haven't thought about that.
Speaker:So things like providing questions in advance or giving
Speaker:people, you know, 15 minutes to read the questions and then
Speaker:asking them is going to give you a, a better sense of who,
Speaker:who the right candidate is.
Speaker:I
Speaker:mean, we, we de developed a diagnostic tool
Speaker:specifically for this, called the disability
Speaker:inclusion Gap Analysis.
Speaker:And it, again, it's got, it's a bit like our maturity model
Speaker:for digital accessibility within an organisation.
Speaker:But what you are really looking at is how mature
Speaker:are you at each stop in the employee journey.
Speaker:So recruitment, onboarding.
Speaker:General ways of working, meetings and events,
Speaker:performance and career development, which is a
Speaker:really important area.
Speaker:There is a bit of a glass ceiling, that
Speaker:disabled colleagues tend to butt up against.
Speaker:And, and a lot of that can be to do with how development's
Speaker:done within an organisation.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:It's just, a helpful way for people to benchmark where they
Speaker:are and get some ideas about where they want to go next.
Speaker:And, Integrity is our fourth company value.
Speaker:So it was really important for us to walk the walk.
Speaker:So we put ourselves through that gap analysis
Speaker:and we keep focused on where we can improve.
Speaker:I think another thing I, I can't remember what
Speaker:the stat is, you might know this, but disabled
Speaker:candidates have to apply for a large multiple of roles
Speaker:compared with non-disabled candidates before.
Speaker:Stay secure a role.
Speaker:And, whilst it gets some criticism here and there,
Speaker:I do think the disability confidence scheme is a
Speaker:good thing to sign up to.
Speaker:if you go for the level three accreditation, as we
Speaker:have done, you get external validation from another
Speaker:level three organisation.
Speaker:So that's a really valuable reflective process and that.
Speaker:Is a really good indicator then to candidates that they
Speaker:should be able to expect a positive experience with
Speaker:that organization if they did apply for a role there.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:And I love that your, the commitment there as well is,
Speaker:is not just like you say.
Speaker:On the hiring side of things or the recruitment side,
Speaker:because you could be doing all the right things and
Speaker:bringing people in, but if you're not actually set up
Speaker:as a business to support people with their needs or
Speaker:any adjustments that might be required, then you're actually
Speaker:failing people all the same.
Speaker:which I've heard some real horror stories throughout
Speaker:the years of people that have been offered a job
Speaker:and they are great at it, but they just couldn't
Speaker:access the systems that they were using internally.
Speaker:So you turn up for work and you can't actually
Speaker:log on or you can't.
Speaker:See the screen or whatever it might be.
Speaker:And even down to the physical element, I've had some
Speaker:people that have turned up to work in an office and
Speaker:it's on the third floor with no lift access, and that's
Speaker:just not an accessible working environment for them.
Speaker:So it's I love that you are, yeah.
Speaker:The, the, the process doesn't end at congratulations, you've
Speaker:got the job, but yeah, I think the stat, I mean it's a
Speaker:bit skewed is around 60% more jobs, but I think that it's
Speaker:actually higher than that.
Speaker:I think that's, you know, that would be a. A, an
Speaker:unfair average to state that it's 60% more, especially
Speaker:in the current market.
Speaker:I think the jobs market at the moment is
Speaker:very hard for people.
Speaker:There's an awful lot of competition.
Speaker:and it's, again, it's the, the non awareness of, of people.
Speaker:They might think that hiring teams may think
Speaker:that, someone without.
Speaker:A requirement for an adjustment to be made may
Speaker:do a better job, but that's, it's not, not always, most
Speaker:times, often not the case.
Speaker:So, yeah, I think again, I mean, it all comes
Speaker:back to awareness.
Speaker:So it's, it's one of those awareness and an education.
Speaker:and I hope that we'll see a, a change, but
Speaker:that's, it's, yeah.
Speaker:It's amazing that you've got that, that process
Speaker:throughout AbilityNet.
Speaker:And if, if I was to advise an organization which fit
Speaker:to focus on, I would say onboarding is actually really,
Speaker:really key because setting people up for success is.
Speaker:You know, again, there are some stats which I can't
Speaker:pull off the top of my head, but about, you know, if,
Speaker:if your onboarding isn't satisfactory, you are very,
Speaker:very likely to leave that organization within 12 months.
Speaker:And, you know, you put all that effort into
Speaker:recruitment and then think, oh, why, you know,
Speaker:why didn't that work out?
Speaker:But again, communication, having a range of ways of
Speaker:working that people can choose from, assistive technologies,
Speaker:all of those things.
Speaker:You don't have to have a specialist process
Speaker:for disabled candidates.
Speaker:It, it just can be something that, you know,
Speaker:that dialogue that you're opening up with everybody.
Speaker:What do you need to help you perform at your best?
Speaker:and that spending that time will pay dividends with
Speaker:that doubt and from, from personal experience as well.
Speaker:The people that are gonna be.
Speaker:Best, equipped at telling you what they need are
Speaker:the people that have the requirements themselves.
Speaker:So if you're just not asking the question,
Speaker:then you're just setting yourself up for failure.
Speaker:There's a lot of schemes like access to work
Speaker:and, people living with, disabilities will understand
Speaker:exactly what they need.
Speaker:So you can't just make assumptions either.
Speaker:So you're right, the onboarding, asking the
Speaker:right questions as early on as possible, you can just,
Speaker:yeah, make sure that things.
Speaker:Run smoothly.
Speaker:You are a hundred percent right.
Speaker:but amazing.
Speaker:So Amy, I can't believe it already time's flying,
Speaker:but before we wrap up, is there anything that you are
Speaker:especially excited about at the moment or is there any new
Speaker:initiatives that AbilityNet or any personal projects,
Speaker:just any final thoughts, really anything that you
Speaker:are you'd like to share?
Speaker:Well, there's always lots of things that I'm excited about.
Speaker:so I won't give you the full list or we'll
Speaker:be here all night.
Speaker:I'm obviously very, very excited about Tech Share Pro
Speaker:2025 that's taking shape now.
Speaker:the themes that we have this year, CX customer experience,
Speaker:I'm really excited about that.
Speaker:It's.
Speaker:Area where accessibility should be entirely
Speaker:baked in, but that isn't always the case.
Speaker:So we're gonna be unpacking, you know, how do you bring
Speaker:those two communities together and, and in increase
Speaker:and improve collaboration?
Speaker:'cause that's got a big impact on the customer.
Speaker:And, and the employee side.
Speaker:I think the, the whole CX piece and there's some
Speaker:really exciting innovation going on in that area.
Speaker:AI and accessibility of course is a theme, and
Speaker:again, we've got lots of exciting people sort of
Speaker:liming up with different perspectives on that.
Speaker:So really keen to see those conversations start to unfold.
Speaker:Accessibility leadership is an area that we'll be
Speaker:covering and neurodivergence and accessibility.
Speaker:so it's gonna be really, really great.
Speaker:Tickets are on sales, so, really look, and I think you
Speaker:are coming this year though.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:Yay.
Speaker:I can't wait.
Speaker:It's gonna be, it's something I've been meaning to get
Speaker:to for many years and, yeah, very grateful to
Speaker:my boss that she's helped to fund my ticket, so
Speaker:I'll definitely be there.
Speaker:Brilliant stuff.
Speaker:on the accessibility leaders side, there's a, there's a
Speaker:project that we're working on that I'm really excited
Speaker:to get off the ground, which is an accessibility
Speaker:leaders peer group, which we plan to launch very soon.
Speaker:As I mentioned earlier, I think accessibility can
Speaker:feel like a bit of a slog at times and, and folks in
Speaker:the sector really value time together to problem solve
Speaker:and encourage one another.
Speaker:So we are looking that the program will be sort of
Speaker:part training, part peer support, part coaching and
Speaker:mentoring with a bit of all important socializing.
Speaker:Thrown in.
Speaker:So we'll be sending out some expression of interest
Speaker:invitations fairly imminently, if not already done at
Speaker:the time of listening.
Speaker:So any listeners that are interested, keep your eyes
Speaker:peeled on LinkedIn or in your inbox for more information.
Speaker:so I don't know that, what else?
Speaker:I think the digital inclusion work that we do within
Speaker:AbilityNet, it feels like what's been, coming out
Speaker:from government and through London Tech Week and this
Speaker:huge sort of emphasis on digital as a way to solve a
Speaker:lot of the challenges that we're experiencing in this
Speaker:country, and it's really, really important that.
Speaker:Digital inclusion is considered in there.
Speaker:There were so many people who still don't have access
Speaker:to a device data or, or skills and confidence.
Speaker:And some of the work that AbilityNet's doing supported
Speaker:by, fantastic organisations like BT Group, Capgemini
Speaker:and others is really pushing into that space.
Speaker:So, wanna be doing a lot more of that as, as time goes on.
Speaker:Oh, amazing.
Speaker:Oh, it just sounds like, yeah, there's, there's always so
Speaker:much going on, like you said, and it's, it must just be
Speaker:amazing being at the forefront of a lot of that as well.
Speaker:'cause you'll be one of the first to hear about
Speaker:certain things that are happening in the space.
Speaker:And it's, probably quite difficult to, to not shout
Speaker:about it all the time.
Speaker:But definitely my soapbox is well overused, well overused.
Speaker:I guess, I guess my final thought today is an analogy
Speaker:that people may have heard me used multiple times before,
Speaker:but it's so accurate, is that working in accessibility
Speaker:can literally feel like, maintain, you know, just
Speaker:when you think you've got to the top, you go round a
Speaker:corner and there's further peaks sort of stretching above
Speaker:you that you need to scale.
Speaker:and I found another quote actually that I love that
Speaker:really encapsulates it for me.
Speaker:It's a Haitian one this time.
Speaker:I think I pronounced that right.
Speaker:and the quote is Beyond the mountains, more mountain and.
Speaker:And I guess it means that actually life itself is an
Speaker:ongoing struggle, right?
Speaker:But that's what makes it so meaningful.
Speaker:And you know, when we go back to, the analogy of
Speaker:mountaineering, it can also be really exhilarating.
Speaker:And, you know, when you look a across the mountain, there's
Speaker:so many other great people who are scaling it with you.
Speaker:so although we've.
Speaker:Always got a ton of work still to be done.
Speaker:I do think we all deserve those moments where we can
Speaker:kind of stand together at a viewing point and admire
Speaker:what's behind us and how far we've come before we then
Speaker:look around and and plan the next stage of our journey.
Speaker:And I mean every single Yeah, you're right.
Speaker:Accessibility's never gonna be done.
Speaker:There's no full stop at the end of it.
Speaker:'cause things will always change and it's, it's
Speaker:an interesting one.
Speaker:So now I've got a feeling I'm gonna have to start looking
Speaker:for people with the job title.
Speaker:Accessibility Sherpa.
Speaker:Yeah, because you're gonna be guiding people
Speaker:up those mountains.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:That is a good job title.
Speaker:We'll have to, we'll have to start getting the
Speaker:JD together, won't we?
Speaker:That's it a hundred percent.
Speaker:As long as you've got your climbing boots, then join on.
Speaker:amazing.
Speaker:Well, Amy, thank you so much, for joining me today.
Speaker:And for everything you know, the conversations,
Speaker:the time you've given me, it means an awful lot.
Speaker:And, I just really appreciate everything you are doing
Speaker:and AbilityNet is doing.
Speaker:and I just hope that today's conversation sparks more of
Speaker:that awareness and action.
Speaker:I hope, I think that's a, a key thing as well.
Speaker:So just thank you as always, and to everyone
Speaker:that's listening.
Speaker:Oh, thanks Joe.
Speaker:And yeah, have a great rest of the day and thanks for
Speaker:having me on the podcast.
Speaker:Oh, more than welcome.
