Chris Holloway - Head of Accessibility Recite:Me
The Digital Accessibility Podcast – Chris Holloway
In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Joe is joined by Chris Holloway, newly appointed Head of Accessibility at Recite:Me, a technology leader renowned for its digital inclusion tools.
Chris brings deep experience from his years at PwC and across the broader digital accessibility sector. He shares insights on building high-performing accessibility teams, demystifying reputation issues around accessibility overlays/toolbars, and how community and intent drive sector progress.
We discuss:
- A journey through consulting and tech: Chris’s move from PwC to Recite:Me and what motivated him towards a career in Accessibility.
- Team building and community: How Chris hires and nurtures new accessibility talent, and the essential skills he seeks out.
- Overlay tooling and sector reputation: Why overlays spark controversy, lessons learned from past industry missteps, and how Recite:Me looks to drive meaningful change.
- Client engagement and sector transformation: How leading companies can genuinely embed accessibility instead of mere box-ticking.
- Practical tips for accessibility assessments, guidance on interpreting standards, and how Chris’s public content empowers practitioners and organisations via platforms like LinkedIn.
- Looking ahead: Chris’s hopes for the future of digital inclusion and the projects and changes that excite him for the year to come.
Follow Chris Holloway:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-holloway-accessibility/
Follow Joe James:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/
Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/A11yJoe
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PCRDigital
Visit PCR Digital:
https://www.pcrdigital.com/
Transcript
Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.
Speaker:If you're looking to learn more about the field of
Speaker:accessibility, how to implement it within your role
Speaker:or your company, or to get advice on where to start or
Speaker:see how others have navigated complex issues that you may
Speaker:find along the way, then you're in the right place.
Speaker:I'm honored to be able to share these insightful
Speaker:chats with thought leaders, advocates, and practitioners
Speaker:of digital accessibility throughout this podcast,
Speaker:and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.
Speaker:As always, thank you so much for listening and I
Speaker:hope you enjoy the chat.
Speaker:Today's guest is someone whose journey spans some
Speaker:of the biggest consultancy and tech organisations in
Speaker:the accessibility world.
Speaker:I'm joined by Chris Holloway, recently taken on the role
Speaker:of head of accessibility at Recite Me after years of
Speaker:delivering huge impact at PWC.
Speaker:Chris's experience covers everything from
Speaker:accessibility strategy and audits to digital tooling
Speaker:and technical innovation.
Speaker:we're gonna dive into Chris's journey, the inside
Speaker:story on accessibility tooling, which some people
Speaker:will refer to as overlays, team building, reputation,
Speaker:intent, and, so much more.
Speaker:So welcome to the podcast, Chris.
Speaker:Hi, Joe.
Speaker:Thanks for having me, I think.
Speaker:No, don't be worried.
Speaker:It's all good.
Speaker:so I guess, as, as always, we'll just
Speaker:start at the beginning.
Speaker:So, a couple of questions really, but, what originally
Speaker:led you to specialise in accessibility, and then more
Speaker:recently, what encouraged you to sort of take the leap from
Speaker:a role working at a very, you know, globally recognised
Speaker:brand, PricewaterhouseCoopers or PWC to the head of
Speaker:accessibility at Recite Me.
Speaker:It's a big question, isn't it?
Speaker:It's a really big question.
Speaker:So yeah, why, why did I get into the industry?
Speaker:I think that's the starting point.
Speaker:if I'm honest, like many people, it wasn't
Speaker:something that I left school to go and do it.
Speaker:It's something that, you know, you kind of find
Speaker:yourself doing one day.
Speaker:for me, I just had a genuine interest in,
Speaker:in technology anyway.
Speaker:so, you know, from my perspective, always, always
Speaker:been really interested in kind of learning about
Speaker:how technology works, why we're using it.
Speaker:and then for me, I just happened to be, if I'm
Speaker:honest, in the right place at the right time to get the
Speaker:right, the right technology in front of me and just, I
Speaker:just had a really good, you know, real interest in it.
Speaker:So, how did I start?
Speaker:I was sat there, working in a team where we
Speaker:looked after some of the software packages at PWC.
Speaker:So it was kind of how we, how we bring things in, how
Speaker:we give software to staff.
Speaker:So, so for me it was, it was just kind of working out, um.
Speaker:How I could get the screen reader work in, and then
Speaker:more importantly, what, what is it that I've just fixed?
Speaker:You know, who, who's, who's this for?
Speaker:Can I meet the person?
Speaker:and yeah, I, I kind of got introduced to, to one of the
Speaker:partners at the time who was, who's using this software.
Speaker:and he just gave me a really good insight to kind of asking
Speaker:why, why do we need this?
Speaker:And obviously, that person had vision impairment at the
Speaker:time, and obviously that was gonna help them go forward.
Speaker:So I realised actually that there was technology
Speaker:sitting between somebody being able to do their job
Speaker:or potentially not, and being completely excluded
Speaker:from what we were doing.
Speaker:So, that's kind of where I started then.
Speaker:Then I kind of asked the question of like, well,
Speaker:what, what else is there?
Speaker:What, what else have we got in in the firm that
Speaker:actually we're, we're trying to do our best with?
Speaker:and it, it, it quickly, you know, kind of that got to
Speaker:that point where we had.
Speaker:Screen readers.
Speaker:We had, you know, different technologies
Speaker:for literacy support.
Speaker:You know, we had different settings
Speaker:that were any laptops.
Speaker:and then I, I realised after that I was thinking, this
Speaker:is exactly where I want to be, is I love doing this.
Speaker:and then I got this extra bit that I wasn't expecting was
Speaker:technology and then people, so you had kind of, you know, two
Speaker:things that I really enjoyed.
Speaker:I love talking to people and understanding how they work
Speaker:and what they're doing and how I, you know, I can help them.
Speaker:and I realised actually really quickly that I had
Speaker:two interests that were like, really well aligned.
Speaker:So, yeah, I, I kind of moved into to looking after.
Speaker:Assistive technology in the firm.
Speaker:So I looked after all the licensing, any road blockers,
Speaker:anything I could fix at the time to help people.
Speaker:So, I, I kind of did that for a, a long while.
Speaker:and then obviously moved into kind of more around,
Speaker:you know, learning about accessibility, actually really
Speaker:understanding, I get why we've got the technology now,
Speaker:but why is that technology now not working with that?
Speaker:What's the problem?
Speaker:So, it was kind, it felt like a little bit of a natural
Speaker:progression 'cause I kind of went from understanding
Speaker:why we're doing this to, okay, well I need to get
Speaker:involved in how we'd now fix other things so that the
Speaker:technology is accessible and it actually works with it.
Speaker:So that was kind my evolution into that.
Speaker:and it just went from there.
Speaker:It absolutely went from there.
Speaker:Kind of learned more, wanted to get involved in more stuff.
Speaker:Got got involved with a lot of the communities, accessibility
Speaker:communities, which kind of, it, it just opens an
Speaker:eye up into everything that you can be involved in.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:For me, it was kind of, that was what I wanted
Speaker:my career to be in.
Speaker:So it's been in that for, just overall 11 years now.
Speaker:it's been amazing.
Speaker:I've seen a lot of progress in, in the tools and the
Speaker:technology that's around it.
Speaker:why w leave PWC?
Speaker:I think that's kind of, that, that's a
Speaker:question that I've seen.
Speaker:I've been asked that loads.
Speaker:And I think, you know, for me, what PWC is an absolutely
Speaker:fantastic place, with how it supports the staff and,
Speaker:you know, the technology they've got access to.
Speaker:and you know, for me it was kind of like, great, we've
Speaker:now got that into position where it's stable, it's
Speaker:doing what we needed to do.
Speaker:but for me it was kind of what's next.
Speaker:And for me, obviously one of the things that I think
Speaker:the, the industry, the accessibility industry suffers
Speaker:a little bit for is that we have an accessibility team.
Speaker:You have individuals in your teams that are kind of
Speaker:part of that, the team can only ever get so big because
Speaker:once it gets to that point where it's kind of, okay,
Speaker:we've got the accessibility team, you generally
Speaker:don't then have another accessibility team that
Speaker:sits next to it or another.
Speaker:it tends to be kind of, you've got that hub and spoke effect.
Speaker:You've got that main area where you've got access
Speaker:split champions, your specialists in there.
Speaker:what does that do for, for people that
Speaker:are actually perhaps looking for progression?
Speaker:it means that if you've already got somebody
Speaker:potentially, you know, as a lead or a head of, or
Speaker:directorship or anything like that, it actually
Speaker:becomes really difficult then to, to kind of navigate
Speaker:away from that, to go and do something else to
Speaker:perhaps get promotion or, you know, seek progression.
Speaker:So that was kind of, where I was looking at, I was
Speaker:kind of looking at where could I go to where I could
Speaker:actually deliver some impact, really grow what we need to
Speaker:be doing in the industry.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Stay within the industry and stay with the people I knew.
Speaker:stay with your tribes.
Speaker:That's kind of what I've done.
Speaker:So, I've stepped obviously into something that's
Speaker:completely different, but also something that,
Speaker:now I'm kind of four to five months into it.
Speaker:I absolutely love it.
Speaker:and you know, for me it's just given me an opportunity to,
Speaker:to kind of move in, really look at our roadmaps, really
Speaker:understand where, where our strategy needs to go.
Speaker:also layering on the things that I've known and I've
Speaker:trusted over the years, and that is that everything you do
Speaker:must be focused around people.
Speaker:is a people first approach.
Speaker:Accessibility, for me is it's, it's solely about
Speaker:making sure that people.
Speaker:Are able to do and be the best that they can possibly be.
Speaker:So yeah, moving over to Recite Me, it's given me an
Speaker:opportunity to, to shape the focus a little bit, shape
Speaker:some of the strategy, that's kinda where we're going next.
Speaker:but also perhaps challenge some of the things that
Speaker:we, we, you know, we might need to change or adjust.
Speaker:which I've, I've absolutely loved doing.
Speaker:So, yeah, it's also given me the opportunity to, to
Speaker:kind of stay in touch with a lot of the network that
Speaker:I had, including yourself, Joe, last night we went out.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:but yeah, for me it's just, you know, that's what I
Speaker:love about the industry.
Speaker:I love that culture around that.
Speaker:didn't wanna lose that.
Speaker:So I think for me, moving across, to Recite Me just
Speaker:is, is given me the option to kind of expand a little
Speaker:bit, but also make sure that.
Speaker:I still get to do what I love doing, so, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, it does.
Speaker:I mean, it's the thing, I think when we look at, I mean
Speaker:obviously recruiter head on, when I look at people that are
Speaker:specializing in accessibility, there are those sort of
Speaker:nooks and crannies almost.
Speaker:It's like, oh, okay, you are mostly on the audit
Speaker:side or testing, and then, oh, you are, you know,
Speaker:creating, you're innovating and, and making technology.
Speaker:And then like, I guess it's, it's really familiar territory
Speaker:for you because a lot of your stuff has been working on sort
Speaker:of internal tooling and, and the assistive technologies
Speaker:and things like that, which is, you know, I guess to
Speaker:put it really plainly, like sort of what Recite Me is
Speaker:and what they're, you know, what they were created to,
Speaker:to do and to build is, is sort of technology that helps
Speaker:people, you know, navigate the web and technology.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:And then, so recently as well, I know, so.
Speaker:Making immediate impact as you do.
Speaker:you recently grew your team, you hire, you made a
Speaker:new hire, and I believe you tapped into your own sort
Speaker:of network as well, that you say, you know, obviously
Speaker:that you've, you've managed to, to keep in touch with,
Speaker:to find the right person.
Speaker:So naturally, as a recruiter, I'm gonna ask you, so what's
Speaker:your sort of approach to building teams and the
Speaker:importance of that community?
Speaker:And sort of, sorry for four questions in one,
Speaker:but what sort of skills in particular, would you
Speaker:say matter for candidates in this space when they're
Speaker:trying to sort of break into the accessibility field?
Speaker:So one thing I would say is, um.
Speaker:I absolutely loved that recruitment process.
Speaker:It was so fun.
Speaker:you know, being able to kind of reach out to
Speaker:people and go, great.
Speaker:How, how is it that you work?
Speaker:You know, oh, we work slightly differently.
Speaker:So I love that approach, you know, and that's great.
Speaker:so I, for me, I can't take all the credit.
Speaker:So we've got, an internal, recruit as well, Leslie,
Speaker:who is absolutely fantastic.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So, from her perspective, it was around kind of
Speaker:approaching that from an inclusive perspective
Speaker:and, you know, I went down that path as I, I, as I
Speaker:came in to recite as well.
Speaker:So really, really good path in.
Speaker:I think probably what, what I looked for, when
Speaker:I, when I'm looking at adding people to the team or
Speaker:bringing people into your, your kind of bubble, um.
Speaker:You've really got to look after that.
Speaker:and one of the things that I was really keen on
Speaker:doing when, when I started was bringing people in
Speaker:that are, that genuinely care about this stuff.
Speaker:You know, they've, they've got a genuine
Speaker:passion for accessibility.
Speaker:They may have, some lived experience as well, you
Speaker:know, that might be themself, so it might be family
Speaker:or friends around them.
Speaker:so for me, I, I needed people that come into the
Speaker:team that really gets it.
Speaker:You know, they're not coming in, to, to kind of have
Speaker:to go back and learn that.
Speaker:so I think for me, there's certain things that you
Speaker:can, you can bring staff into and you can upskill
Speaker:them, you can do that.
Speaker:So things like WCAG for example, great.
Speaker:You, you can bring somebody in.
Speaker:as long as they've got those, those kind of fundamentals,
Speaker:they've got the core values, they understand why
Speaker:they're here, they get the context around it, and they,
Speaker:they've got some disability confidence themselves.
Speaker:the other stuff can come.
Speaker:You know, learning about WCAG
Speaker:yes, it'd be lovely if you had somebody that that kind
Speaker:of understood that great.
Speaker:Of course you would be looking for somebody.
Speaker:However, what I was really keen on is I didn't want
Speaker:people that are almost the WCA dictionary.
Speaker:It's, it's, it's no good.
Speaker:It's no good for me because we've got tools that can
Speaker:help with that stuff.
Speaker:We've got frameworks out there that can do that.
Speaker:just because, you know, every single WCAG standard, it's,
Speaker:it's fantastic if you do, but if you can do that, but then.
Speaker:Not have those people skills to connect in
Speaker:with clients that really genuinely need our help.
Speaker:and you just quote, WCAG standards to them and you
Speaker:just don't understand why.
Speaker:for me, that's, that feels like a complete backward step.
Speaker:one of the things I also wanted to do as well, and
Speaker:I dunno if this is something that that generally goes
Speaker:across the board, is I actually brought my team
Speaker:in to help me with that.
Speaker:so I brought people that are already in my team
Speaker:into those interviews to really ask the questions
Speaker:that they need help with.
Speaker:so rather than it be kind of me go through the interview,
Speaker:interview process or perhaps if somebody externally
Speaker:do that for me and then go, oh, I've, I've hired
Speaker:somebody, and there we go.
Speaker:They just get, you know, injected into
Speaker:your team and that's it.
Speaker:that's completely, that feels like a completely
Speaker:well the wrong approach for me?
Speaker:I wanted to make sure that we had somebody that came
Speaker:along that felt like they fitted in to start with,
Speaker:and they were kind of, we were ready to bring them in.
Speaker:They knew who we were, they were comfortable
Speaker:with us, we were really comfortable with them.
Speaker:and actually, do you know what?
Speaker:It, it, it luckily worked out that way.
Speaker:So we've got, a couple of, I've got a couple
Speaker:of team members now, so Abby and, Avenie.
Speaker:and what we were really focused on was actually
Speaker:bringing somebody in that, you know, fitted our core values
Speaker:as a firm, really understood what we were trying to do as a
Speaker:team, but also challenged us.
Speaker:I didn't want, somebody else to come into the team that
Speaker:was gonna just sit and go.
Speaker:It's great, Chris.
Speaker:Let's do that.
Speaker:I, I wanted somebody, I wanted somebody to
Speaker:come into the team.
Speaker:I want still people in the future as well to come
Speaker:in, and challenge that, that status quo, bring new
Speaker:ideas in and perhaps after wise, you know, and perhaps
Speaker:bring their experience in with that as well.
Speaker:because I think that's the only way we can do it.
Speaker:That's how we're gonna get better.
Speaker:So, yeah, it's been, I, I've, I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
Speaker:I, again, I can't take all the credit 'cause I had Leslie
Speaker:helping me, but, you know, it's something that I think
Speaker:if we're doing that wrong and you're not asking those
Speaker:questions and you're just bringing people in 'cause
Speaker:you think that they've, their CV looks good, I think
Speaker:it's the wrong approach.
Speaker:So, just to kind of caveat a little bit on that as
Speaker:well, is, is I think it's really important how you,
Speaker:how you bring people in, in terms of, you know,
Speaker:your interview process, so.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I've in the past, not in any of the companies
Speaker:that I've got roles with, which is fortunate.
Speaker:but I've been to interviews in the past where I've
Speaker:walked out and gone.
Speaker:I really don't wanna work there.
Speaker:I don't, if I get the role, that's great.
Speaker:I don't want to work there because the way that
Speaker:I've been interviewed.
Speaker:So, you know, I was really, you know, when I went through
Speaker:the interview stage, I was kinda like, look, how can we
Speaker:make sure we are not putting people on the spot in an
Speaker:interview and expect them to, to quote the WCAG to me, okay?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But how are we also bringing somebody in that I give them
Speaker:the opportunity to really show me what they can do?
Speaker:so the approach was, you know, for us, we, we go in with kind
Speaker:of an informal discussion.
Speaker:Is this right for you?
Speaker:Is it, is this right for us?
Speaker:We, we, are we on the same path here?
Speaker:You know, do you understand what we're looking for?
Speaker:is there anything else that you perhaps think that our
Speaker:role should do that we are not, that you'd love to
Speaker:discuss in a bit more depth?
Speaker:and then we move into obviously, you know, kind
Speaker:of through that approach.
Speaker:It's kind of what's the next steps.
Speaker:It's kind of a more informal discussion.
Speaker:we start to talk about, you know, what our core
Speaker:values are, what the actual job will be doing.
Speaker:and in that case, what we did do in, in, in two
Speaker:instances is we've adjusted that role slightly.
Speaker:we've worked out and we've understood that
Speaker:that person, you know, we, we've got this role.
Speaker:But actually they would be really good doing
Speaker:this as well, or perhaps not so good in that.
Speaker:So let's tailor the role.
Speaker:so you know, we can tailor the role.
Speaker:And then I think it's really important as well, a lot
Speaker:of people doing kind of task-based activities and
Speaker:going, here we go, you've got this and you need to
Speaker:join a call and we need to, you need to walk through an
Speaker:accessibility audit with us.
Speaker:do you know what, I would absolutely die if I had
Speaker:to do that on the call, if I'm honest with you.
Speaker:without any prep or just being on the, being put on the spot.
Speaker:I could probably do it, but it wouldn't be fun.
Speaker:would that put me in a better position to, to really show
Speaker:somebody what I can do?
Speaker:Absolutely not.
Speaker:It really wouldn't.
Speaker:so what I did was I set a, a task and I, I
Speaker:strongly believe this is the right way to do it.
Speaker:I set a task.
Speaker:I just wanted 20 minutes of their time, 20 minutes
Speaker:of time I built, to help a few, colleagues,
Speaker:a website that just had accessibility issues on it.
Speaker:The really obvious ones, some of them not so much.
Speaker:and I just said, look, you know, do you know what?
Speaker:I'm not gonna set you any templates.
Speaker:I'm not gonna tell you how to do it.
Speaker:What I want you to do is time box yourself.
Speaker:I don't want two hours of an audit on this.
Speaker:And I was very clear.
Speaker:I said, listen, in your own time, spend 20 minutes
Speaker:on, on this website.
Speaker:All I want you to do is I want you to write down
Speaker:what you can find, in your way of doing it.
Speaker:And then I want you to come to me and just give
Speaker:me a priority order of what you would tackle first.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And why, why would you do that?
Speaker:and I just think that was the best approach.
Speaker:I, I felt it gave somebody the opportunity to step back,
Speaker:work in their own environment, perhaps drag out some of the
Speaker:tools and, you know, crazy WCAG artwork they've got on
Speaker:the wall or whatever it is.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:And it just gave them the opportunity to go away and,
Speaker:you know, and, and kind of spend some time doing that.
Speaker:and I think the key to that is trust.
Speaker:what I trusted them to do at that point was only
Speaker:spend 20 minutes on it.
Speaker:I don't need more of your time.
Speaker:But also, if you've gone out to different resources or
Speaker:you've had some help from somebody else, or you needed
Speaker:something, tell me about it.
Speaker:I wanna know about it.
Speaker:So, that's what we did.
Speaker:So I got, a couple of those back.
Speaker:one of them, one of them was Abby.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Abby and our team.
Speaker:but actually it was kind of like, I can
Speaker:see what you're doing.
Speaker:That's great.
Speaker:I love what you're doing.
Speaker:some of it didn't quite align with what we do.
Speaker:And actually do you know what I've, since, since that person
Speaker:has joined, we've actually adjusted some of the things
Speaker:that we've, we would do to go.
Speaker:You know what?
Speaker:That's a really way, that's a great way of doing it.
Speaker:That's why are we not doing that?
Speaker:Let's adjust it.
Speaker:Yeah, let's make sure that works.
Speaker:Or, you know, there's, there's certain bits that I've been
Speaker:really key on to go, well, do we really need to do that?
Speaker:Actually, let's not do as much of that.
Speaker:Let's think about it again.
Speaker:So, yeah, for me it's just, giving, giving
Speaker:people that approach.
Speaker:I don't want a cook a, a cookie cut effect of
Speaker:just employing another person that's the
Speaker:same as the last one.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:I don't think that any that helps anybody.
Speaker:but I think it's also really, really key to, to just really
Speaker:give people the opportunity to, to sign kind of shine.
Speaker:I think that approach also gave us the opportunity to, to
Speaker:have, make sure that the way that we were recruiting and
Speaker:being, bringing people into the firm is really inclusive.
Speaker:It's really open.
Speaker:So, you know what we were doing throughout that process
Speaker:and I was asking, you know, upfront was, listen, is there
Speaker:anything I can do to help you through this process?
Speaker:Is, are there any adjustments I can help make?
Speaker:Do you need a bit more time to answer some of the questions?
Speaker:great.
Speaker:If you do, that's fine.
Speaker:Tell me.
Speaker:It's not gonna influence how, how the process goes,
Speaker:but what it does allow me to do is go, this person
Speaker:is an extra half an hour.
Speaker:Let's not rush this interview.
Speaker:Let's add half an hour on the end.
Speaker:in fact, while we've done that, let's give everybody
Speaker:the opportunity to do that if they need to.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I think that was the, the fair way of doing it.
Speaker:And I think, you know, what we got out of it
Speaker:was real transparency.
Speaker:somebody that wanted to come into the firm, somebody
Speaker:that was happy to come in.
Speaker:and yeah, I, I really, I stumbled by it.
Speaker:I think that's, kind of our approach.
Speaker:I'm gonna do it again.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:I think that's, yeah, it's great points there as well.
Speaker:And so I wrote a few things down as well, so it was more
Speaker:around, obviously Leslie Credit where it's due.
Speaker:That's brilliant.
Speaker:I'm pleased to hear that there's a, an excellent
Speaker:recruiter out there and supporting you doing that.
Speaker:that when you mentioned about just having the fundamentals
Speaker:and then it's actually being able to put that into
Speaker:practice, like when it, I do make a joke quite often about.
Speaker:you know, if I'm speaking to a new client and they need
Speaker:help sourcing someone, and I, you know, the first question,
Speaker:what do you need them to do?
Speaker:Or what, what knowledge do they need to have?
Speaker:And usually I make the joke of reciting WCAG
Speaker:2.2 in its entirety.
Speaker:And obviously that's not, I mean, it's great like you
Speaker:said, to have that recall.
Speaker:but without putting it into practice or being able to
Speaker:translate that to people that won't be aware of it,
Speaker:it's kind of a useless skill.
Speaker:Not useless, but you know what I mean.
Speaker:but no.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:And then the, yeah, I mean that interview process
Speaker:where the, where you are upfront as the recruit, the
Speaker:recruiting party to make sure people are comfortable and
Speaker:you be the one to approach.
Speaker:Would you like any, is there anything we can do to make
Speaker:you feel more comfortable or any adjustments we can make?
Speaker:Because I do think that the owner should be on
Speaker:the, the hiring side.
Speaker:I think that you should be the one to approach that.
Speaker:'cause I've, people will feel uncomfortable.
Speaker:They shouldn't, but they will feel uncomfortable
Speaker:about feeling like this is gonna jeopardize my chances.
Speaker:They're gonna think I need more time in day to day.
Speaker:But actually it's a really anxiety sort of driving
Speaker:scenario regardless of how comfortable you
Speaker:might be with the person that's interviewing you.
Speaker:You're gonna be nervous, you're gonna be anxious.
Speaker:And I mean, I'm a very anxious person anyway.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So like interviews are, are a nightmare for me.
Speaker:So I'm always, I'm very conscious of that.
Speaker:And then I try and project that when I'm speaking
Speaker:to my own candidates to say, you know, it's fine.
Speaker:Just let me know and 'cause I would feel the exact same way.
Speaker:I totally agree.
Speaker:I mean, also what you gotta think about is, you
Speaker:know, what's the whole purpose of an interview?
Speaker:What's the purpose of an, in the idea of an interview
Speaker:is so that you get a really good understanding of what
Speaker:that person is about and they get understand to what
Speaker:you're trying to do as well.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Why would I want somebody really stressed out and
Speaker:not giving me the best?
Speaker:It's just, it goes against everything
Speaker:that we would wanna do.
Speaker:So, you know, for, for us as well, that's why I was kind
Speaker:of like looking at, you know, how would this person work?
Speaker:I want to see how they're working.
Speaker:But I do, we do that in under pressure in the day jobs.
Speaker:We absolutely don't.
Speaker:If you're gonna do an audit or you're gonna go out and, you
Speaker:know, go and give some, some consultancy to somebody, you
Speaker:would go, not so much guarded and armed, but you'd go there
Speaker:prepared, you'd make sure that everything was set up so that
Speaker:you know you could deliver the best to, to that client
Speaker:or the customer, whoever it is that you're working with.
Speaker:You wouldn't do that by just walking into a discussion
Speaker:where they're just gonna fire millions of questions at you.
Speaker:Very true.
Speaker:You wouldn't, we have been in positions that, that happens.
Speaker:however, it's, it's not your general day to day
Speaker:run of the mill is that you wouldn't necessarily walk
Speaker:into an interview every day.
Speaker:So for me it's like, how do I see that
Speaker:person actually working?
Speaker:Can I get a glimpse of that before we go
Speaker:through the process of, of onboarding them?
Speaker:and I think that's what I got.
Speaker:So I was really pleased.
Speaker:perfect.
Speaker:Yeah, cool.
Speaker:Shows good leadership as well, rather than being
Speaker:a boss, you're a leader.
Speaker:You're someone that's actually enabling people.
Speaker:You know, you are, you are bringing them along
Speaker:and that, that, you know, is quite evident in what
Speaker:you've said there as well.
Speaker:And I love the fair task and that it's short.
Speaker:You're not taking too much of people's time, as long as you
Speaker:are getting an idea of what they're capable of as well.
Speaker:And absolutely it's a two-way street.
Speaker:You know, it, you want people to want to work with you.
Speaker:'cause otherwise you're gonna have to go through the
Speaker:recruitment process again.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I think, I think as well as part of that is it's,
Speaker:it's so important to just keep people up to date.
Speaker:Let people, you know, let people know what's going on.
Speaker:because, you know, I've been in positions before, not so
Speaker:much, you know, recent, but you're kind of, you apply for
Speaker:a role, you get really excited about it, you get emotional,
Speaker:you put that emotion into what you're trying to do.
Speaker:You go to an interview, you do everything you
Speaker:possibly do, and then you never get any updates.
Speaker:And, you know, that could be really upsetting for,
Speaker:for people that are, you know, in a position where
Speaker:they're, they're trying to get into the industry, they're
Speaker:trying to do a role, they're really trying, but they're
Speaker:not getting anything back.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:so I, I, you know, for me as well, what I,
Speaker:what I'm interested in doing is actually giving useful
Speaker:feedback to people that perhaps didn't quite make it.
Speaker:And that that wasn't because they weren't
Speaker:good enough for the role.
Speaker:I had one role.
Speaker:so for me as well, it's kind of, you know what,
Speaker:I need to have somebody that is the right person.
Speaker:I can't have two or three people.
Speaker:'cause there isn't the roles for it.
Speaker:So, you know, it's what I tried to do through
Speaker:the process and we'll continue to do this, is
Speaker:if anybody comes for an interview and, you know,
Speaker:they don't land the role.
Speaker:That might be an US problem.
Speaker:That's not a your problem.
Speaker:we need to be able to give you effective feedback to
Speaker:go, look, you did great.
Speaker:These are the reasons why, you know, it might not be
Speaker:that Some of that's gonna be an easy conversation.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:but I do think, I think the industry needs to really look
Speaker:at what we're doing to make sure that people are, are
Speaker:given those skills back to go, well next time it's great,
Speaker:but why don't we focus in, in your next interview perhaps?
Speaker:Why don't we focus more on you a little bit more?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Not quote macca.
Speaker:So it's those sorts of things actually, I, I think are
Speaker:really important as well to give people feedback.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker:And obviously it's tricky and, that's, you know, part
Speaker:of my job as a recruiter, so that's, that's one of the
Speaker:things I'm always pushing for.
Speaker:And I understand that sometimes it's, it's a time
Speaker:thing or, you know, it's, it's, it's difficult, but I
Speaker:will always, always, any of my candidates, I'll just push.
Speaker:And if it's, if it's one, one liner, it's
Speaker:not useful for anyone.
Speaker:It's almost, what's the point?
Speaker:You know, just kind of at least give me
Speaker:something to that they can work with, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But brilliant.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So I'm gonna move on to the next part, which, um.
Speaker:Brace yourself.
Speaker:Sorry Chris.
Speaker:so it is around that, the overlays chat, the
Speaker:reputation, in the industry.
Speaker:but we had a really nice discussion last week about the
Speaker:intent and things, so I just wanted to see if you could
Speaker:share that with the listeners.
Speaker:So, overlay tooling companies, do have a bit
Speaker:of a, a, a, a rough time of it in the accessibility
Speaker:sector, sometimes seen as being a dirty word.
Speaker:I guess there's some past mistakes in marketing and,
Speaker:and potential overpromising, which isn't exclusive
Speaker:to accessibility tooling or overlay, technology.
Speaker:But, you've now seen Recite Me from the inside.
Speaker:So very curious to know what your honest perspective
Speaker:is on tool makers, the intention and where that
Speaker:conversation needs to go.
Speaker:Yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker:You know what?
Speaker:It's a big question, isn't it?
Speaker:It's a, there's a lot to unpack in that as well.
Speaker:one of the things, I've come to learn very, very
Speaker:quickly, and you know, for me as well, I've been in the
Speaker:industry for a long time, and obviously part of that
Speaker:is kind of, you hear, you know, the, the terminology
Speaker:of overlay and, you know, for us, it was almost like
Speaker:you, you almost just stayed away and it was kind of one
Speaker:of those things that you never really got involved in.
Speaker:what I have come to learn is, you know, the
Speaker:differences between what we class as an overlay and
Speaker:what we class as assistive technology or a toolbar.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:And there is, I, again, I wasn't aware of this until
Speaker:I really looked into it, the differences between them.
Speaker:so we obviously Recite Me, from our perspective,
Speaker:and I, I, I truly, genuinely believe this.
Speaker:We are a toolbar, we're assistive technology.
Speaker:And the differences between them.
Speaker:a a again, this is, you know, people coming into
Speaker:the industry be quite challenging to really
Speaker:get your head around it.
Speaker:But also, you know, we've had some, we have had, certain
Speaker:others in the industry that, that haven't been
Speaker:quite as transparent and, you know, they are very
Speaker:different, different position.
Speaker:I'm not gonna go too much into that.
Speaker:However, assistive toolbars, when it goes
Speaker:onto a site, it doesn't change any of the coding.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And it's really, really critical and it's important
Speaker:that we recognize that.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So, obviously you get a lot of people say, well,
Speaker:there's one line of coding.
Speaker:Yes, there is, there's a one line of coding,
Speaker:however, that one line of coding doesn't interrupt
Speaker:anything that's on the page.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So I would go to normal site website, nothing
Speaker:happens on the site until I actually either need
Speaker:to look at the tool.
Speaker:And I, I, I'd prompt it and I'd, I'd load it up on
Speaker:the screen and, you know, we see the toolbar, you
Speaker:know, sort of appear if somebody's using assistive
Speaker:technologies at that point.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:There's two things that, that we have from our perspective.
Speaker:One is that line of code doesn't interrupt
Speaker:anything on the page.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So if you've got an assistive tech coming into that, they
Speaker:should and will be able to just carry on using their
Speaker:assistive tech, providing the website has been
Speaker:built in an inclusive and accessible way to start with.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So if it hasn't been IE you know, they, they've
Speaker:not spent the right effort.
Speaker:The client or the customer, whoever it is, hasn't
Speaker:invested time, their website isn't accessible,
Speaker:then putting assistive technology on that is always
Speaker:gonna be an issue and it's always gonna be a barrier.
Speaker:And you're always gonna have compatible issues.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:The same applies for toolbar.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So we are assistive technology.
Speaker:If you put our toolbar.
Speaker:Onto a website that hasn't been built inclusively,
Speaker:it's not accessible.
Speaker:You, you're not putting the right processes in.
Speaker:You're not looking after your customers and
Speaker:clients and improving accessibility of your site.
Speaker:We're gonna struggle with at toolbar, which is
Speaker:why I'm here, so kind of cover that in a second.
Speaker:when we're talking overlay territories, this is
Speaker:something that we don't class as self sitting in.
Speaker:we are looking at something that sits on your site
Speaker:and you give the option.
Speaker:You, you give your customers and clients no option, right?
Speaker:They arrive on your site.
Speaker:They may be using assistive technologies.
Speaker:They may not be they, you've injected code
Speaker:into your website.
Speaker:Sometimes, in most cases, automatically you are
Speaker:using AI and you know, it manipulates the site.
Speaker:It makes the changes.
Speaker:Your client might not even be aware of what's, what's
Speaker:changed on their site.
Speaker:For me, that's, that's where, you know, that overlay.
Speaker:Can do some good things.
Speaker:I think there's, there's definitely merit and there's
Speaker:a place for it that I, you know, for me, again, a
Speaker:lot of technology, there's definitely a place for it.
Speaker:A hundred percent.
Speaker:however, I think, you know, there's certain things that
Speaker:we shouldn't necessarily be doing and you know, for
Speaker:me is applying automated fixes on the fly and then
Speaker:not giving people the option to remove them
Speaker:feels like a backward step.
Speaker:Because what you're doing effectively is saying, you've
Speaker:already got an inaccessible website, great, we are gonna
Speaker:put some code on there that might fix everything, and
Speaker:then you are gonna try and use your assistive tack
Speaker:on it and it doesn't work.
Speaker:that's the approach that we're very much against.
Speaker:We wouldn't want to do that.
Speaker:So what we do is.
Speaker:Your toolbar sits on the site.
Speaker:It doesn't interrupt with anything on your site
Speaker:until you want it there.
Speaker:what we also do as well is from our perspective, we are
Speaker:consistently and constantly checking and testing all of
Speaker:our internal products with assistive technologies.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:We're improving the way that we do that.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So, you know about, you know, rather than sort of
Speaker:that functional testing, are we really testing our
Speaker:toolbar with real people that would come onto your
Speaker:site and actually use that?
Speaker:So we are doing that.
Speaker:and we've, we've started to make some huge changes
Speaker:in there in terms of, you know, can we make sure that
Speaker:it's, it's keyboard friendly?
Speaker:Like not just can we see if it will do it and can we
Speaker:manipulate the page to do it?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:How are we gonna actually make it do it?
Speaker:you know, are there, are there tools on there
Speaker:that potentially are kind of more obsolete now?
Speaker:You know, we don't, they're not necessarily needed.
Speaker:Maybe some of the built-in stuff is, is gonna do that or,
Speaker:you know, perhaps, you know.
Speaker:We can do that slightly better in an easier way.
Speaker:Let's do that.
Speaker:we've also looked at bringing things into the toolbar.
Speaker:so again, separate to overlay toolbar, that
Speaker:actually adds real value in terms of you wouldn't
Speaker:get this on any platform.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So one of the, one of the examples is, we've
Speaker:just added, not auto-generated BSL.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Very clear.
Speaker:We're not looking at ai, automated gen generated BSL,
Speaker:but what we've actually got are, are clients now that have
Speaker:the toolbar on their site and actually they can have, a,
Speaker:a, a complete transcribed version of that page,
Speaker:with a real person that's sat and gone through it.
Speaker:And actually that's on the toolbar.
Speaker:So actually you can have BSL interpretation right across,
Speaker:certain pages that have been through that process.
Speaker:Well, that's assistive technology.
Speaker:Something that's gonna help somebody.
Speaker:But also raise some of that education piece around, you've
Speaker:got a tool about here, why are we doing this stuff?
Speaker:So, yeah, I, I think for me, I've, I've learned so much,
Speaker:even just joining Recite Me and actually working out
Speaker:and kind of understanding a, what the differences were.
Speaker:I spent a long time really understanding what
Speaker:that looks like and why.
Speaker:but also kind of looking at the roadmap
Speaker:and what's coming up.
Speaker:and you know, we've potentially got, and this
Speaker:is, this is what we were talking about the other day,
Speaker:Joe, around a huge missed potential in the industry.
Speaker:So, you know, we've got, if I was to give, Recite
Speaker:Me as an example, I've got developers that are
Speaker:sat there at Recite Me.
Speaker:Their day job is to literally create accessible tools.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:That's it.
Speaker:That's what they do.
Speaker:They, they do that day in and day out.
Speaker:And, you know, what we're looking at across the
Speaker:industry at the moment is there's been a lot of
Speaker:redundancies across teams.
Speaker:access, fully focused teams.
Speaker:We've seen, you know, less budget allocation.
Speaker:We've seen people, you know, lose roles that they shouldn't
Speaker:have lost those roles.
Speaker:And firms, you know, not perhaps stepping back.
Speaker:We are in a very different position.
Speaker:I've got team of people.
Speaker:their day job, like we said, is to create
Speaker:accessible technology.
Speaker:what they need.
Speaker:and what I can see, you know, especially over the last 12
Speaker:to 24 months is there's a lot more focus on right, let we,
Speaker:we are doing the right thing, we're in the right place.
Speaker:but actually, do we have good disability confidence?
Speaker:Do we really understand that if we're building this tool or
Speaker:these tools that we're doing.
Speaker:Do we really understand why we're building it?
Speaker:Do we understand our target audience?
Speaker:So, you know, we've, we've done sessions with recently
Speaker:more so with, BSL, where we had the whole firm in to
Speaker:learn more about what BSL is.
Speaker:obviously I, I didn't come out as a specialist.
Speaker:For me it was, it was, you know, but, you know,
Speaker:it was important to go, well, actually, why have
Speaker:we put BSL on our toolbar?
Speaker:These are the people that have come in to help with that.
Speaker:And they kind of did some upskilling.
Speaker:We've looked at, you know, IAAP membership.
Speaker:it's not, it's not there to look good.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:It's, it's there.
Speaker:Because what I want our staff to be able to do is feel
Speaker:comfortable with reaching out to people and really learning
Speaker:kind of the next step around how do we evolve, how to make
Speaker:the toolbar better, how do we improve certain things?
Speaker:How do we, how do we listen to the, to the communities
Speaker:and go, right, there's a gap on our tool, let's fix that.
Speaker:We can get it done.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Remembering I've got a team of developers there
Speaker:that want to do this.
Speaker:They're passionate about it.
Speaker:I just need to know what people want.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:so yeah, I think, I think for us, seems some, some
Speaker:massive leap forward.
Speaker:and I, I, we're gonna continue that.
Speaker:That's something that we're gonna carry on doing.
Speaker:and I think, you know, one of the things that I, I've
Speaker:seen is going back to overlay very quickly, is once you're,
Speaker:once you're kind of in that position where not so much
Speaker:your class as an overlay, but you are close enough
Speaker:to be that people don't understand what a toolbar
Speaker:is actually trying to do.
Speaker:There's no exit door.
Speaker:There is no way of going.
Speaker:Well, actually, do you know what, for, for the
Speaker:new people coming into the industry, or perhaps people
Speaker:that have learned a little bit more about, about what
Speaker:the differences are and why we're doing this stuff?
Speaker:Or do you know what actually just wanna
Speaker:come and be part of it?
Speaker:I would probably, my, my advice to people is
Speaker:my door is always open.
Speaker:I've always been very transparent with that.
Speaker:I've been very open.
Speaker:I'm open, I'm genuinely, genuinely open to discussions
Speaker:around what that looks like.
Speaker:I want people to come and talk to me about it.
Speaker:If they're, if they're not sure or perhaps, you
Speaker:know, they, they've got an interest in it, they wanna
Speaker:come see how it works, come and talk to me open,
Speaker:to have that discussion.
Speaker:So, yeah, hopefully, you know, for me it just gives people
Speaker:a little bit of confidence that, you know, technology
Speaker:changes all the time.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:there's, without going to too much depth, we've
Speaker:also gotta think that from a platform perspective.
Speaker:So from your, from you know, technology and having the
Speaker:operating systems, you've also got operating systems
Speaker:that have something that's very similar to a toolbar or
Speaker:an overlay that's actually built into the platform.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So, you know, we've also gotta look at that, that evolution
Speaker:of there, that people actually see that as a toolbar or they
Speaker:see that as assistive tech.
Speaker:However, perhaps private firms that are quite, you know, not
Speaker:quite as large or not that size of EN enterprise actually
Speaker:have a very similar offering that's just as good, maybe
Speaker:even better, that they're just not getting the opportunity
Speaker:to, to kind of explore and go, look, come and talk to us.
Speaker:We'll fix it if there is a problem.
Speaker:if you need something or is an additional feature that
Speaker:you think is a great idea, let's have the discussion,
Speaker:let's put it on the board.
Speaker:So, yeah, hopefully that gives people confidence.
Speaker:I'd love to have conversations with people if who want to.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:And it is one of those things, I think there's
Speaker:a misconception.
Speaker:I think that there's, like, again, it is funny 'cause
Speaker:the conversation actually came up again last night.
Speaker:So we were out with, some friends in the accessibility
Speaker:community and all loads of different con con
Speaker:conversations happening, which was amazing.
Speaker:And one of them came, one of the points that was
Speaker:raised was marketing teams naturally, or sales teams
Speaker:just really desperately want to say that something
Speaker:is a hundred percent.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So re regardless, accessible, usable,
Speaker:whatever you wanna call it.
Speaker:They just really want people to think this is
Speaker:gonna solve your problem a hundred percent.
Speaker:But there is no such thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:When it comes to, I think it's a very good point.
Speaker:Accessibility.
Speaker:It's a very good point.
Speaker:'cause you, you know, you know from our side as well,
Speaker:so what we've invested time in is actually spending, so
Speaker:I do this on a weekly basis.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I spend time, within all the groups that the sales
Speaker:team are in, and we are learning, we're getting, we.
Speaker:Vastly improving in terms of what we're doing.
Speaker:you know, and what I also have access to as well
Speaker:is past discussions that, you know, people have had.
Speaker:so I'm very key in terms of, you know, we
Speaker:shouldn't be, we should never be over promising.
Speaker:We should be really, honest with pricing.
Speaker:we should be really transparent.
Speaker:but also as well, do you know what, there's, there's
Speaker:also there's opportunities where, do you know what
Speaker:that partnership just isn't the right fit?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So we, we may have clients that are coming towards
Speaker:us, that want a quick fix.
Speaker:They're ready to throw perhaps a lot of money at something,
Speaker:they're ready to go.
Speaker:Well that's great, that's your problem.
Speaker:You go and fix it and come back to us.
Speaker:And we just want the golden stamp at the end of it.
Speaker:we don't want to partner with people like that.
Speaker:We don't want to.
Speaker:So, you know, for us as well, it's a very different
Speaker:position where actually you walk away from a deal or a
Speaker:client because actually we are not the right fit for you.
Speaker:Your core values.
Speaker:They don't align with what we're trying to do.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and I think for me, that's, that's something that, you
Speaker:know, I have seen done.
Speaker:I think it's really important that we do that.
Speaker:but also it's kind of making sure that we've
Speaker:got the right education into, into our sales teams.
Speaker:We are listening to feedback.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:We are really clear and transparent on, on what
Speaker:we can and can't do.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But also I think, you know, part of that is, this is what
Speaker:we were talking about last night was around if you've
Speaker:got a client coming to us that don't know what they
Speaker:want, meeting a sales team that don't know what they're
Speaker:selling, leave a party at that point are likely to say that
Speaker:they dunno what they're doing.
Speaker:'cause they kind of wanna be in that position
Speaker:where like, you know, they're leading this,
Speaker:they know what they want.
Speaker:Of course they do.
Speaker:What happens is you end up with complete mush that
Speaker:comes out the back of it.
Speaker:'cause nobody really understands.
Speaker:Nobody understands what the client needed, what
Speaker:they really wanted.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Matched with something that, you know, that company or that
Speaker:organization can offer, which actually comes to something
Speaker:that is gonna genuinely benefit both parties.
Speaker:and I think, you know, for me, I haven't seen that.
Speaker:I haven't seen that here.
Speaker:I think, you know, for us, I'm, I'm quite comfortable
Speaker:for confident with, you know, how the sales
Speaker:team approach clients.
Speaker:They're, they're respectful.
Speaker:There's, there's sort of no force in terms
Speaker:of over compliance.
Speaker:You know, we're not saying what, what I hate to kind
Speaker:of see other organisations is saying, come to us,
Speaker:we'll fix your EAA for you.
Speaker:You don't need to do it.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:If you are saying to clients or customers that we will
Speaker:fix your EAA compliance for you, then that's the
Speaker:wrong partner for you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In my opinion.
Speaker:if you're going to, to organisations that are saying,
Speaker:look, we will partner with you, we will work with you.
Speaker:We are gonna give you the resources that we know and
Speaker:we've tried and tested, we're gonna match that
Speaker:with your expectations and look at your skill level.
Speaker:and we're gonna help you get to that.
Speaker:You know, we're gonna work together, you know,
Speaker:as a collaboration.
Speaker:for me, that's the right way to go and that's what
Speaker:the EEA should be doing.
Speaker:and obviously when we're talking about all the
Speaker:others, a DA compliance or the, you know, all the bits
Speaker:that we kind of see, what we shouldn't be using is
Speaker:those words to, to kind of confuse people and get
Speaker:people to kind of buy into products that they actually
Speaker:either don't need or isn't, isn't the match for them.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:So I think that's, that's kind of the
Speaker:approach that I've seen.
Speaker:I'm, I'm really comfortable with how, how
Speaker:I think we do it here.
Speaker:I can't speak on, I can't speak on behalf of others, you
Speaker:know, 'cause that's, that's of course types of them process.
Speaker:But, you know, for me it's just been, you know, what
Speaker:I value is transparency, honesty, and actually just.
Speaker:Let's work together, let's collaborate on something and
Speaker:make sure that actually it's a good experience for everybody.
Speaker:Because if we're doing that, that person's likely
Speaker:to either want to come back and need more help, which is
Speaker:great, but actually they're more likely to maybe move to
Speaker:another organization and take that knowledge with them.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Which is why I'm here.
Speaker:that in the accessible industry, why,
Speaker:why are we here?
Speaker:I think that's kind of the question is that, you know,
Speaker:what I want to do is I want to upskill somebody that
Speaker:goes and makes the world just that little bit better
Speaker:and then feels comfortable to go to another company
Speaker:taking that knowledge with them and spread that with
Speaker:another 10 people that get it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then those 10 people go out to, and, and it
Speaker:just means actually, rather than focus on, you know,
Speaker:budgets and money and things like that, we should be
Speaker:focusing on evolution of, of that, of that knowledge.
Speaker:People being able to really recognize it,
Speaker:take that forward.
Speaker:So yeah, if we get to that, I think we're winning.
Speaker:Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker:Love it.
Speaker:And, it's, it's, sorry, just very quickly on
Speaker:that point as well.
Speaker:It was that kind of risk by association almost as well
Speaker:because if you are bringing in your partnering with
Speaker:a company that would just buy your tool, your tool
Speaker:bar or whatever it is, your solution and not really know
Speaker:what they're doing with it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's gonna make your tool look crap to, I'm probably
Speaker:have to bleep that, but like, it's gonna make it like, you
Speaker:know, misrepresentation is what it's, and again, it's,
Speaker:it's, it's about, you know, if we go, if we're go into
Speaker:a website and, you know, it's, it's awful and you
Speaker:know, do you know what some people are, are still at
Speaker:that point at the moment, which is absolutely fine.
Speaker:We've never heard of accessibility.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:What we shouldn't be doing at that point is
Speaker:stringing them up and going, well, if you didn't know
Speaker:about it, that's awful.
Speaker:You're an awful person.
Speaker:Yeah, right.
Speaker:What we should be doing is going well, that's great.
Speaker:Do you know about it?
Speaker:And if they say no.
Speaker:We should be.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Let's bring them in, have the discussion of what
Speaker:it is, if they choose not to do anything with it.
Speaker:And three is down the line, they still haven't decided
Speaker:that they're gonna do anything with the website.
Speaker:I wouldn't wanna partner with them.
Speaker:Why, why would anybody want, you know, their tools or, you
Speaker:know, any of their services or anything on a site that goes
Speaker:against what their core values are and their core beliefs.
Speaker:So, you know, for me, what we do have, this is what I lead.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So part of that is around the, the consultancy aspect.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So yes, we have toolbar, we've got other tools
Speaker:internally that can help with compliance and
Speaker:accessibility, checking and automated approaches and
Speaker:all the magic stuff that we generally talk about.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:From my perspective, you know, we're also looking at, well
Speaker:that's great, but how do we test with real world testers?
Speaker:How do we bring manual testing into that discussion?
Speaker:How do we make our clients feel comfortable about
Speaker:that manual aspect of it?
Speaker:but then how do we then turn all of that into something
Speaker:that they can then actually use their company to
Speaker:improve what they're doing?
Speaker:they're the sort of people I wanna, I want
Speaker:to sort of partner with.
Speaker:and you know, so far every, all of the clients that
Speaker:I've worked with, that's the approach we've taken.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:Absolutely love it.
Speaker:And, you know, I think that that is, you know, that
Speaker:takes it away from just being a product that you're
Speaker:selling people to actually a product that you, you
Speaker:know, you do sell, but you truly believe in and you,
Speaker:you truly support as well.
Speaker:So, you know, we obviously have con, you know,
Speaker:consultancy that kind of wraps around that to
Speaker:help, if we see a site that isn't accessible.
Speaker:We wouldn't do is just go, well, there's the toolbar.
Speaker:Thanks very much.
Speaker:We're not gonna do anything else with it.
Speaker:We'd give them options.
Speaker:so it's around, look, your site could be improved.
Speaker:Here's some guidance.
Speaker:This is something that you can go do.
Speaker:Go and read this.
Speaker:Go and understand it a little bit more.
Speaker:If you need our help in a bit more depth,
Speaker:then come and find us.
Speaker:We're happy to go through that.
Speaker:so that's what happens.
Speaker:So when, when the toolbar goes on, it is wrapped with
Speaker:a huge amount of support around that, just to make
Speaker:sure that that person's okay.
Speaker:And, you know, we, what we don't do is, is kind of dump
Speaker:a toolbar onto a website and then never look back at it.
Speaker:It's kind of, yeah, the toolbar goes on and it gets
Speaker:continually monitored, with customer success managers
Speaker:that help make sure that it's working as it should be.
Speaker:but also again, it goes back down to if, if we
Speaker:see that the client isn't doing what we believe in.
Speaker:Then, you know, from our perspective that that
Speaker:relationship starts to, starts to die out or it ends.
Speaker:So, you know, I think that's a really important
Speaker:part of, you know, if we, if we've got overlay tool by
Speaker:providers, don't sell and run.
Speaker:It's not about that.
Speaker:It's about looking at how you can work with somebody to
Speaker:make it better for them, but then continually monitor and
Speaker:support that going forwards.
Speaker:I think that's kind of, I think that's what we
Speaker:need to get better at.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely in the industry.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:A hundred percent.
Speaker:I think, yeah, I think it is one of those things,
Speaker:and that's a misconception that, that is there.
Speaker:I think people are sort of, you're taking the human
Speaker:element, you're taking the manual aspect and, and
Speaker:removing people from the, the process by utilizing at all.
Speaker:But actually.
Speaker:Having that hand in hand is probably the best approach.
Speaker:'cause we need to make the most of innovation
Speaker:and technology that we've got these days to
Speaker:make our lives easier.
Speaker:You know, we do that with everything.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:No, I love that.
Speaker:but you did mention a bit about the coaching
Speaker:and, and, consultancy side of things as well.
Speaker:So I'm gonna just sort of skip ahead to another
Speaker:question, around that.
Speaker:So I see myself as quite a visual vocational learner.
Speaker:So one thing I love about your work and what I've seen online
Speaker:is the content that you share publicly, on, on LinkedIn
Speaker:is where I see it anyway.
Speaker:and it just sort of includes loads of like, tidbits of
Speaker:advice and practical sort of, sort of guides on
Speaker:accessibility, auditing or testing and, how
Speaker:to interpret, interpret complex guidelines and
Speaker:demystifying the sort of regulat regulations
Speaker:and things like that.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Could you share here?
Speaker:I guess some go-to methods or like the, the sort of
Speaker:standard things that you'd be like, this is, this is
Speaker:what people need to be doing.
Speaker:Well, yeah.
Speaker:I, I think if I'm honest with you, a lot of it come
Speaker:from, in terms of my journey into accessibility, what I
Speaker:quickly got overwhelmed with just how complicated people
Speaker:can make accessibility.
Speaker:And that, that goes back to what we said earlier.
Speaker:If somebody doesn't really truly understand the context
Speaker:and you know, they're not disability confident,
Speaker:they don't understand why we're doing this stuff,
Speaker:then those are the wrong type of people to then be
Speaker:writing guidance about it.
Speaker:sure.
Speaker:And when you're starting out in this, you don't
Speaker:know who those people are.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So you'll read whatever you can possibly get
Speaker:your hands on to go.
Speaker:And actually what I found really quickly was a, I was
Speaker:getting super overwhelmed with just stuff come out
Speaker:my ears thinking how am I gonna know all of this stuff?
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:But then also I found like just definitions
Speaker:were overly complicated, like really complicated.
Speaker:And one of them that I, you know, I always recommend to
Speaker:people when I, when I talk about wca, my opening line is
Speaker:don't go diving in head first.
Speaker:Don't do it.
Speaker:You don't need to do that to yourself.
Speaker:what I would strongly suggest is, you know,
Speaker:approaching it from understand the context first.
Speaker:Go and learn a bit about disability and lived
Speaker:experience and you know, then go and try and work out what
Speaker:you're gonna do next with it.
Speaker:so that's what I wanted to try and do with my LinkedIn.
Speaker:I wanted to bring in, bite sized kind of learning.
Speaker:I wanted, I wanted learning that somebody
Speaker:could go, whether they're on the bus or the tube.
Speaker:I don't wanna have to sit there and read for 20 minutes
Speaker:to try and get the point.
Speaker:I just wanna go, you know what, if you can't get this
Speaker:yeah, within 20 seconds, that's not your fault.
Speaker:That's my fault for not writing it clear enough.
Speaker:and that's kind of what I've always done.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:For me, it's around how do I make sure that if
Speaker:I'm putting stuff out there, A, it's accurate,
Speaker:it needs to be accurate.
Speaker:B, I'm not overcomplicating it, and three, if my
Speaker:12-year-old son doesn't understand it, then I need to
Speaker:go back and write it again.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and he loves it when I give him stuff and go, you can
Speaker:read this, you can tell it is, so I'm in your work.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It kind of sits and goes, what you, what's that?
Speaker:So actually, you know, there's certain things that
Speaker:I do put in there sometimes.
Speaker:So a, a good example was, I put into something the other
Speaker:day, cognitive functionality or co cognitive function.
Speaker:and those are in industry, probably recognize
Speaker:it and that's great.
Speaker:However, my son was like.
Speaker:I don't get what that is.
Speaker:Can you?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:If you don't get what it is in this, that's not your fault.
Speaker:Let's, let me go back and re reword that.
Speaker:so actually that was a kind of a, a moment of me to go, well,
Speaker:yeah, let's take a step back.
Speaker:So, you know, for me it's, I I think LinkedIn
Speaker:is an amazing platform.
Speaker:I've used it for a couple of different reasons.
Speaker:One is, through recruitment.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So you, that's, that's kind of where I, I even swatted
Speaker:my role, which is great.
Speaker:bite-size learning.
Speaker:But what I've also found, with LinkedIn as well, and
Speaker:this is like kind of a mega tip that I found, before,
Speaker:was actually yes, that's a brand, that's your personal
Speaker:brand out in the industry to help you with that stuff.
Speaker:but also you can get into so many people's pockets really
Speaker:quickly and really easily if you are really consistent and
Speaker:you could be trusted if you're the right person for that.
Speaker:and you know, what I found was actually.
Speaker:Navigating big organisations where you've got a lot of,
Speaker:internal sort of stoppers or, I dunno, you're looking
Speaker:at specific campaigns over a certain month and
Speaker:actually you are trying to deliver something that
Speaker:is more in the moment.
Speaker:And now sometimes, what I found with Access Spotlight
Speaker:Champions and advocacy networks is sometimes your
Speaker:internal comms platform doesn't quite align with the
Speaker:speed and pace that you need.
Speaker:but then you realize that most of the people that you're
Speaker:gonna talk to internally are on LinkedIn as well.
Speaker:So connect with them all is what I did.
Speaker:and you know, something that I, I've also had some
Speaker:really good feedback from, from people that have done
Speaker:this is I've connected with other people that are in my
Speaker:organization and as long as I'm really careful with what
Speaker:I put out there and I respect and trust, you know, internal.
Speaker:The internal aspects of what the organisations I'm working
Speaker:at at the moment, are about.
Speaker:So I'm not gonna give client names out.
Speaker:I'm not gonna go and give industry secrets out, never
Speaker:gonna slate the company that, you know, I might be
Speaker:working with over there, or they never gonna do that.
Speaker:Keep it positive.
Speaker:and what I found is actually I can actually reach a lot
Speaker:of the employees and staff quicker through LinkedIn Yeah.
Speaker:Than I can by my internal comms platform.
Speaker:and actually that's for me, especially if you're looking
Speaker:at growing your champions networks and your advocacy,
Speaker:in the firm is that was a really quick and easy way
Speaker:just to get a message out to people and go, look, next time
Speaker:you send that email, don't say please see response below
Speaker:in blue, because obviously from our perspective Yeah.
Speaker:So just that kind of learning.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Why are you doing that?
Speaker:It's because actually you, you put blue text on there
Speaker:and actually someone with a color vision deficiency or you
Speaker:know, somebody that's using a screen reader, it's never
Speaker:gonna announce that it's blue to them and they can't see it.
Speaker:So actually it makes it difficult to see what Yeah.
Speaker:Comment.
Speaker:You've reply back, say, you know, for me it's like there's
Speaker:a tip, put it out on LinkedIn, make sure it's really clear
Speaker:and it could be understood in, you know, 10 seconds or less.
Speaker:And then push that out.
Speaker:And actually what you find is that gets into your staff's
Speaker:pocket usually quicker than through your internal route.
Speaker:Yeah, no, that's great.
Speaker:That's brilliant.
Speaker:And I think sometimes if people, they might
Speaker:even be perusing.
Speaker:LinkedIn for other reasons.
Speaker:They might be a bit disgruntled in their job, and
Speaker:then they're sort of looking at what's out there, but
Speaker:then they see something like that and there's someone else
Speaker:in the company that cares about accessibility and is
Speaker:trying to do the right thing.
Speaker:If that's where their, you know, values are, then
Speaker:it might sway them to go, actually, I'm gonna reach
Speaker:out to you internally now and build that.
Speaker:You know, it's brilliant.
Speaker:I think that's a, a great way to build those networks.
Speaker:It happens.
Speaker:it, it, it starts in somebody walking up to you and going,
Speaker:oh, I've seen that thing you wrote on LinkedIn.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you, the next question for me is like,
Speaker:what thing was that?
Speaker:'cause obviously it's, you know, but actually it's,
Speaker:it goes back to like, do you know what, I never would've
Speaker:perhaps connected with that person if they hadn't have
Speaker:gone through their LinkedIn in this is the most important
Speaker:thing in their own time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, so you've gotta think.
Speaker:Comms usually go out in works time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Internal comms go out, works time usually, and
Speaker:you read it in works time.
Speaker:LinkedIn social media platforms go out in their
Speaker:time, so actually they'll be laying in bed at 10
Speaker:o'clock at night or, you know, on the tube or doing
Speaker:something or whatever it is.
Speaker:And you may actually pop up on their, on their feed
Speaker:in their time when they've got time to read it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you get much more impact.
Speaker:So it's kind of, it made sense to do it.
Speaker:I don't do it for myself.
Speaker:I really don't.
Speaker:I genuinely enjoy, I genuinely enjoy getting people to,
Speaker:to understand accessibility a little bit more and then
Speaker:seeing the questions come back so I learn from it as well.
Speaker:So I get, that's kind of the benefit I get, is
Speaker:that I get an insight to what people are thinking.
Speaker:So I can go, well actually let's, let's
Speaker:improve what I'm doing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Do that.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:So I guess it invites a bit of a response as well.
Speaker:'cause I mean, some of the things that you've shared, um.
Speaker:To, to me now, I'm like, oh, you know, that makes perfect
Speaker:sense, you know, covering your screen if you're gonna
Speaker:start using a screen reader to test if it works and if
Speaker:you can navigate the, the, the site or whatever it might be.
Speaker:And I'm like, oh yeah, well of course you'd do that.
Speaker:But without seeing that, it didn't really, I was
Speaker:like, well, how would you just close your eyes,
Speaker:but you tempted to peek?
Speaker:Like, do you know what I mean?
Speaker:It's, that, that post you're, you are talking about Joe.
Speaker:I've, in, in the past I've spent an hour to two hours
Speaker:crafting a post and going, this is gonna be the one
Speaker:that's, you know, gonna get into, you know, a lot of
Speaker:people and people are gonna get benefit out of this.
Speaker:And you kind of push the boat out and you think nothing
Speaker:happens and you go, oh, okay.
Speaker:That maybe that wasn't quite right.
Speaker:that post, I wrote that I was in a hotel room.
Speaker:I'd gone up to Newcastle to, to kind of meet
Speaker:the recite team.
Speaker:I was in a hotel and I just thought.
Speaker:Yeah, I just popped out.
Speaker:It took me five minutes to write that post, five
Speaker:minutes to write the post.
Speaker:I took the picture genuinely.
Speaker:So people ask me, do, do you actually, do I
Speaker:genuinely do that at home?
Speaker:It's something that I do.
Speaker:yeah, something I do tell clients to do, and I, you
Speaker:know, it's, it's the process.
Speaker:I've not made that up.
Speaker:I put it out at that post alone.
Speaker:we were, I think the last time I looked that was going up to
Speaker:300,000 people had seen that.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:My God.
Speaker:And you would never, yeah.
Speaker:So it's, it's, you know, for us, when we're talking
Speaker:about spending budget and looking at money, and
Speaker:going, well, I haven't got investment budget on that.
Speaker:I'm genuinely, and there's a lot of people out there
Speaker:that can do the same thing.
Speaker:And you know, that's, you know, there's a lot of
Speaker:people out that I follow.
Speaker:that's the level of impact you can have.
Speaker:From sharing your knowledge of being really open and
Speaker:transparent and, and just spending a little bit of
Speaker:time thinking about how can other people get the
Speaker:best out of this post.
Speaker:and for me that was kind of, if, if I'm honest, it took
Speaker:my, it took me out at the knees a little bit 'cause
Speaker:I was a bit like, that took me literally five minutes.
Speaker:But the amount of impact you can have off of those
Speaker:types of posts, can have a massive impact.
Speaker:So I, you know, I think for me it's, something that I get,
Speaker:that's where I get the benefit and that's where I get kind
Speaker:of the kick out of doing it is when I can see people going,
Speaker:light bulb moment, Chris.
Speaker:Got it.
Speaker:I'm gonna share that with my team.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and yeah, that's, that's why I do it.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:So, I mean, hopefully you'll get some marketing budget
Speaker:given your way now because of all of that you've been
Speaker:able to do just from your LinkedIn post in, who knows?
Speaker:I mean, he's only four or five months in, but I'm
Speaker:already asking, Recite Me to give you a raise.
Speaker:no, I mean,
Speaker:you know, for, from our perspective as
Speaker:well is, you know, um.
Speaker:I, I love the way that our social media, our, our team,
Speaker:our marketing team as well, their approach as well has
Speaker:just been really refreshing from what I've seen.
Speaker:So, coming in, coming in and having those conversations
Speaker:with, with the, you know, the marketing team and
Speaker:going, well, what is it?
Speaker:How, how are we working?
Speaker:and some of the things that I've seen them do and some of
Speaker:the sort of posts I've seen them write are brilliant.
Speaker:Really, really brilliant.
Speaker:And it's kinda like, why, why are we not
Speaker:getting this out further?
Speaker:And it, it goes back down to, to kind of that reach
Speaker:into the market and going, well, actually, we want to
Speaker:be in that position where we can really help people.
Speaker:And we've got really good, talented people that are
Speaker:writing some amazing stuff that are ready to listen.
Speaker:Get 'em involved.
Speaker:So yeah, I think, I think probably from, from a
Speaker:marketing perspective, if you've got other organisations
Speaker:that are in the same position, get them involved.
Speaker:So I've got marketing team involved in IAP membership.
Speaker:I've got them looking at how can we make our comms even
Speaker:more inclusive than they are.
Speaker:how we challenging that, how we, you know, re-platforming
Speaker:things, you know, are we sending too many emails out
Speaker:that are confusing people?
Speaker:Are we sending not enough that don't give enough context?
Speaker:That sort of stuff.
Speaker:So I think, yeah, it's really important to, to
Speaker:kind of, you know, look at the social media as being
Speaker:a very small part of that.
Speaker:It's not the only part.
Speaker:but also looking at, you know, how your marketing teams are
Speaker:actually being, you know, how they can be aligned to
Speaker:your recruitment process.
Speaker:You know, how can they be aligned to your
Speaker:procurement process?
Speaker:What are they doing to help with, making sure
Speaker:the platform's internal.
Speaker:Are inclusive for your leadership to use.
Speaker:You know, so it's all those things that stitch together.
Speaker:So yeah, I think marketing team is, is hugely,
Speaker:hugely important in, in your organisations.
Speaker:I think we need to focus on it.
Speaker:Influential definitely to the success for sure.
Speaker:awesome.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So, I guess, so kind of final question before final
Speaker:thoughts, 'cause I know I could talk to you all day
Speaker:long, but I know we've both got other things to do.
Speaker:as someone that I would say is quite unfamiliar with the
Speaker:offerings of Recite Me, are there any sort of plans to go
Speaker:beyond this is an assumption.
Speaker:I believe that the, the toolbar and the, the products
Speaker:that are offered are mostly around web, sort of platforms
Speaker:or websites and things.
Speaker:But is there, is there a mobile version of Recite Me or
Speaker:is there plans to go into that space or VR or AR and all?
Speaker:No, that's a good question.
Speaker:It's a good question.
Speaker:So, um.
Speaker:I think probably the easiest answer at the moment, 'cause
Speaker:obviously some of it we're, we're kind of working on
Speaker:is, is watch the space.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Really, really watch the space because, you know, we are in
Speaker:a position where, you know, we know toolbars very well.
Speaker:That's what we've done for so long, you know,
Speaker:we're really good at it.
Speaker:and, you know, those other platforms around consultancy,
Speaker:what are we doing, you know, to improve that?
Speaker:Well, there's, there's new tools coming in daily.
Speaker:There's that, we're not talking months and years.
Speaker:We're talking features that are coming in daily.
Speaker:We've got teams there that are running sprints
Speaker:with new stuff coming in.
Speaker:and what we're, what we're really keen on doing has
Speaker:been really close to our customers, our clients really
Speaker:listening to kind of what the hurdles they're having and not
Speaker:saying, well, that's great.
Speaker:We'll just put it at the back of the, it's on the backlog.
Speaker:We're actually going Well, okay.
Speaker:Invite a client in, what do we need to do?
Speaker:What, what are we doing really well for you?
Speaker:What would you like to see better?
Speaker:so I think, I think probably in that innovation space,
Speaker:we are innovating every day.
Speaker:you know, and I think we, what I particularly
Speaker:like here is we, were all empowered to do that.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:So, we don't have one entry route in terms of, you know,
Speaker:one person is the person that dictates everything
Speaker:that happens in the toolbar.
Speaker:we've obviously got product managers and, you know,
Speaker:they are epic, really, really amazing what they do.
Speaker:what I particularly like about our product managers
Speaker:is actually they're listening to the whole firm.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:They're not just listening to those that are in the team
Speaker:and even just our clients to listen to everybody.
Speaker:So, we've got new things going into the
Speaker:toolbar all the time.
Speaker:most of those will come from kind of discussions
Speaker:that perhaps our sales team have had, or I've put some,
Speaker:some sort of implementation bits that I want sort of,
Speaker:you know, tweaked in there, which has gone in, um.
Speaker:So, yeah, I think, I think from that innovation piece
Speaker:we are developing, there are other things that we've
Speaker:got on our roadmap as well.
Speaker:just to, to kind of focus on that.
Speaker:and I think probably AI isn't the only way.
Speaker:I think that's kind of, you know, what we've learned as
Speaker:well is there's a lot of, we we're going to, every, every
Speaker:discussion is AI all the time.
Speaker:and you know, from my perspective, absolutely
Speaker:we should be doing that, but it shouldn't be doing
Speaker:everything all the time.
Speaker:So, you know, some of the other aspects we're
Speaker:looking at is, well, that's great, but how do we
Speaker:bring manual accessibility testing into that?
Speaker:But actually we're not automating all of it, but
Speaker:using AI to help with that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, and how do we then bring that to life?
Speaker:So yeah, we've, we've got tools hopefully that
Speaker:we're gonna, you know, we we're looking at to,
Speaker:to kind of bridge some of those gaps as well.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:And yeah, I think, I think going back to, to kind of
Speaker:Thers and the vrs, so, you know, augmented reality,
Speaker:virtual reality, I think, I think they've got a place.
Speaker:obviously there's a, there's at the moment kind of industry
Speaker:standards are kind of not up to the level that says that
Speaker:you're gonna be compliant against something or not.
Speaker:So I think there's, there's gaps there.
Speaker:So mobile apps are another example of that.
Speaker:So we've got mobile apps, we've got ar, vr, kiosk,
Speaker:potentially as well, some of those areas.
Speaker:so I think there's still a lot of work to
Speaker:be done around that.
Speaker:and I think, yeah, that's kind of where I've seen
Speaker:kind of, you know, I've seen a lot of innovation
Speaker:coming in, but I do think, you know, focusing on web
Speaker:development, web development at the moment is, you know, I
Speaker:think I, I think a priority.
Speaker:And the reason why I'm saying that is because
Speaker:that's where it's easiest to give upskilling.
Speaker:At the moment.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and that's what we're trying to do as an industry.
Speaker:So I think, you know, yes, we should be looking at AR
Speaker:and vr, but I do think, you know, really understanding
Speaker:those fundamentals from a web accessibility
Speaker:perspective, I think more important at the moment,
Speaker:just so that people get it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Joey, in two, three years time, you know, we may
Speaker:have a different level of recognition understanding
Speaker:across the industry, and it might be actually, well,
Speaker:the focus is on then AR and VR fully, you know.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:All those platforms.
Speaker:I think also a, a gap is around, you know, we,
Speaker:we focus very heavily on the accessibility
Speaker:team doing accessibility compliance training or
Speaker:accessibility compliant auditing, standalone.
Speaker:I think what we are not focusing on, and this is what
Speaker:we, you know, I'm looking at potentially in the future
Speaker:is, is to go, well, that's great, but how do we like
Speaker:focus on the whole life cycle?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:How do we stitch everybody together in a way that
Speaker:everybody gets it and they'll get support that they need.
Speaker:So I think, I think in terms of less around emerging
Speaker:technology and more around how do we make sure that
Speaker:what we've done at the moment we're actually
Speaker:connecting the dots up.
Speaker:so I, I think that's an important bit.
Speaker:I think main thing that I wanna emphasize on this as
Speaker:well, and I've had so many fantastic, discussions, I
Speaker:had discussions last night with, with people at, at,
Speaker:you know, at the group, is around collaboration.
Speaker:We must be collaborating if, if we're working.
Speaker:I think if we've got organisations that are
Speaker:specifically focused on accessibility and they're
Speaker:working independently, solely on their own,
Speaker:we've got a problem.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:so, you know, from, from my perspective, accessibility
Speaker:is, is about giving people the most options that
Speaker:they can possibly get out of the best offering.
Speaker:You can't do that on your own.
Speaker:You cannot do that on your own.
Speaker:You need to be able to collaborate and have
Speaker:partnerships with other organisations to really
Speaker:understand how we're gonna make this work for everybody.
Speaker:and that, I think that's where, you know, from my
Speaker:perspective, I absolutely love to speak to people that are,
Speaker:are kind of in that space.
Speaker:I've already had good conversations with
Speaker:people, people that perhaps even watching
Speaker:this, hi, I'm talking to you, which is great.
Speaker:but you, you know, for us it's, it's about do
Speaker:you know what that we've got that shared Paul,
Speaker:we've got people there.
Speaker:I've got people in my team that can help with this stuff
Speaker:in, in terms of development.
Speaker:we've got an amazing founder as well.
Speaker:Ross, the company was so Recite Me, was started,
Speaker:from his lived experience in terms of, his dyslexic.
Speaker:There was a massive gap in the market in terms of
Speaker:he had nothing to support himself from a dyslexic
Speaker:perspective going through college and university.
Speaker:And it was kind of like, well, let's do something about it.
Speaker:So the recite toolbar has actually started
Speaker:from collaboration.
Speaker:Yeah, it's come from collaboration.
Speaker:and that's where we want to still be.
Speaker:We still wanna be collaborating with partners,
Speaker:and just making sure that actually what we are doing
Speaker:is delivering the best user experience, but also the
Speaker:best emotional experience to everybody that uses it.
Speaker:So I think that's what we're about.
Speaker:I love that bit.
Speaker:You know, I love that about what Recite Me does.
Speaker:and you know, I'm, I'm starting to really fall in
Speaker:love with some of the other bits that we're really doing
Speaker:internally as well now.
Speaker:and yeah, I think for me it's just, I just want the
Speaker:most those open discussions with people to kind of
Speaker:go, look, we're ready to come and talk to you.
Speaker:We'd love to come along and have those
Speaker:discussions with you.
Speaker:we just need to know kind of.
Speaker:What people need and you know, why we're doing
Speaker:things, and we can do that.
Speaker:So I think, yeah, from my perspective, that's
Speaker:the open invitation out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:I think it is.
Speaker:It's like a, you can really hear it in what you've
Speaker:said today and you know, obviously I've been doing a
Speaker:bit of research into Recite Me anyway before we, we had
Speaker:this chat and I do honestly believe that the head and
Speaker:the heart of the company is entirely in the right place.
Speaker:You know, and why not?
Speaker:It's, it's literally a company built for
Speaker:accessibility tooling.
Speaker:Like, it's, it's literally for that, it's dedicated to it.
Speaker:So when I, when you talk about collaborating and partnering
Speaker:and things as well, I just thought, I'm sure there's
Speaker:gonna be innovation that's happening at Recite Me that
Speaker:could be used by operating systems, I guess in mo 'cause
Speaker:there's a lot of, I I assume that with mobile apps, what
Speaker:makes them accessible or.
Speaker:Is assisting are sort of built in features within our mobiles
Speaker:that can help with, you know, accessibility features,
Speaker:which would technically be a Recite Me toolbar maybe.
Speaker:so maybe there's innovation on the website that, Recite
Speaker:Me have built that Apple, Google, you know, the, the
Speaker:sort of operating system, creators and developers
Speaker:out there could utilize and there might be elements that
Speaker:could be sort of fed in.
Speaker:I think also, one of the, one of the things that I
Speaker:found, so this was from past experience in, in other roles,
Speaker:is, you've got the likes of, you know, platform developers.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:They, they've absolutely, I can see the investment
Speaker:coming in from those platform developers to
Speaker:really focus on this.
Speaker:I mean, we've, we've obviously had, there's been a couple
Speaker:of bumpy moments recently with, with quid and stuff.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:However, however, you know, the tools are really quite
Speaker:good on those devices or those platforms and then operating
Speaker:systems, which is great.
Speaker:The problem comes when actually they move away to
Speaker:something new and they change the offering to benefit the
Speaker:wider sort of, community.
Speaker:So it's great.
Speaker:So they bring a new feature in, but they discontinue
Speaker:something else that actually there's a huge audience
Speaker:that's still using that and still need to use it, but
Speaker:they're not given then the option to go, well, I don't
Speaker:really want the new thing.
Speaker:I want that.
Speaker:I've worked on this for the last 10 years
Speaker:and now it's not there.
Speaker:What do I now do?
Speaker:So, you know, I think that's where the importance of, um.
Speaker:You know, the assistive and the toolbars, and
Speaker:accessibility companies, generally, people that
Speaker:are building these tools, that's where we
Speaker:are absolutely needed.
Speaker:And the reason for that is because the toolbar, you
Speaker:know, that's still gonna be there potentially when an
Speaker:operating system changes.
Speaker:It's still gonna be the same toolbar or very similar or
Speaker:perhaps tweakable customizable by you to still be there next
Speaker:week when perhaps some of the operating system changes.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:It's d that familiarity just Yeah.
Speaker:Is needed, isn't it?
Speaker:I think for anyone, regardless of ability
Speaker:or whatever it might be, but having that familiar
Speaker:sort of friend Yeah.
Speaker:Helping hand have you, have you had that, Joe?
Speaker:So you know, you, you've used the same button
Speaker:for the last five years.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:And you go, fab, this is awesome.
Speaker:I know what I'm doing.
Speaker:It's all programmed in, you might have.
Speaker:I dunno, Alexa skills assigned to, or series skills or
Speaker:whatever, whatever you've got, you, you might have
Speaker:so much that's relying on, you may have switch control
Speaker:or assistive technologies that are relying on that
Speaker:button being there, which is an operating system
Speaker:platform thing that's been, and you come in
Speaker:next week and it's gone.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Or it's moved or it's changed to something else, or it's
Speaker:been put in another menu and you've got this, you take that
Speaker:option or there's no option.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and I think for me it's around, that's, that's where
Speaker:especially when we were, when I was supporting the
Speaker:assistive technology angle of it, is you cannot go changing
Speaker:things overnight without talking to people and going,
Speaker:do you know this coming?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, so I think that's kind of where I've seen,
Speaker:assistive technology be really, really crucial
Speaker:in that journey is that I want you to be able to
Speaker:come into work tomorrow and that piece of software is
Speaker:still there, ready for you when you need to use it.
Speaker:And it's not moved.
Speaker:Or you've not had to take the lace, the the next update
Speaker:and you're stuck with it.
Speaker:and I think that's kind of what I've, that's what
Speaker:I've always based on.
Speaker:That's why I think assistive technology, we should be using
Speaker:platform level and it's great.
Speaker:That opens the doors to everybody having access
Speaker:to, to something that they can work with.
Speaker:but I think moving, we, we can't move too far away from
Speaker:having dedicated accessibility testing, dedicated,
Speaker:assistive technologies, adapted technologies,
Speaker:because we need it to be really, really stable and,
Speaker:you know, be there when someone needs it the most.
Speaker:So yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, I think that's kind of my angle on it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Otherwise it can be a bit bullish, I suppose,
Speaker:as well, can't it?
Speaker:It's just like, no, we've decided what's best for you.
Speaker:but yeah.
Speaker:but yeah.
Speaker:So I guess, so before we wrap up and I'll let you
Speaker:get back to your day, is there anything that you are
Speaker:particularly excited about in the industry at the moment?
Speaker:Is there a new project project or any ideas or is there
Speaker:a specific change you want to see in the next year?
Speaker:so I think you've got, a, a lot of regulatory change.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I'm not, not gonna go too much down, down that route.
Speaker:However, I think what I've, what I've enjoyed
Speaker:seeing is a different flavor of discussion.
Speaker:so, you know, for example, you know, the last five
Speaker:to six years has been very focused on champions networks
Speaker:and work an independent accessibility team.
Speaker:And that's great.
Speaker:We should be doing that.
Speaker:I think what I've particularly liked seeing, I would
Speaker:say definitely over the last 24 months and going
Speaker:into, you know, the future you said about what I'd
Speaker:like to see coming up.
Speaker:I love it when you can go into an organization and
Speaker:their first call, they've got the marketing team
Speaker:on there, they've got the sales team on there, they've
Speaker:got their procurement team on there, they've got
Speaker:developer on there, they've got UX team on there.
Speaker:You, you've got everybody.
Speaker:in that company all on the same call, talking about
Speaker:accessibility, ready to take ownership or responsibility to
Speaker:want to learn more about it.
Speaker:that's where I think I'd like to get to, and that's what
Speaker:I'd like to see next is, you know, people feeling really
Speaker:comfortable about knowing why accessibility impacts
Speaker:their job role and what that, what it is that they do.
Speaker:I don't necessarily think that, in fact, I know that
Speaker:we don't need everybody to have the word accessible
Speaker:in their job title.
Speaker:you know, for me it's, it's slightly different if you're
Speaker:an accessibility team.
Speaker:Get that, um.
Speaker:Accessibility doesn't need to be your job title.
Speaker:It should be in your job role to be inclusive, and
Speaker:accessible to everybody.
Speaker:You should be.
Speaker:You should be proud of what you're doing enough for to
Speaker:be able to show your friends and family that you've built
Speaker:something for everybody.
Speaker:yeah, and I think, you know, for me, what I'd like to
Speaker:see the next couple of years about, especially with the
Speaker:regulatory changes like EAA and the a DA, compliance,
Speaker:I'd like to see people feel comfortable to go,
Speaker:right, I'm ready to rock up and let's get on with it.
Speaker:Let's, let's do this.
Speaker:so I think that's kind of Yeah.
Speaker:But the way I'd like to see it, and I think, I
Speaker:think that can be helped with, not having AI come in
Speaker:and fix the world for you.
Speaker:But I think from what I am, what I, what I can see in
Speaker:the future is AI coming in to help bridge those gaps between
Speaker:the, between the teams.
Speaker:so, you know, is different language, you know, your
Speaker:comms teams language is gonna be very different to develop
Speaker:a teams language, isn't it?
Speaker:yeah, I'd like to see AI come along and perhaps
Speaker:help with bridging some of that gap in the middle.
Speaker:and just making sure that it's actually
Speaker:fitting with both sides.
Speaker:and I think that's, that's, yeah, that's where
Speaker:I'd like to see it go.
Speaker:Yeah, I think that's a really good usage for AI as well.
Speaker:Like you say, I think, I mean, they're large language
Speaker:models, aren't they?
Speaker:So it is technically what they're, they're
Speaker:fundamental uses.
Speaker:So it, it should be to, to translate almost between
Speaker:teams and different Yeah.
Speaker:yeah, ways of thinking.
Speaker:Yeah, that'd be really helpful.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Well, thank you so much Chris.
Speaker:I've had like tons of your time.
Speaker:I'm so honored and I just look forward to us talking
Speaker:more moving forward and, you know, seeing you at
Speaker:a few more events I think.
Speaker:Are you gonna be at Tech Share Pro this year?
Speaker:I am, yeah.
Speaker:So actually going back to what we said, some of the changes,
Speaker:so, so this year as an example, Recite Me, I'm gonna
Speaker:be there in person, so I look forward to seeing everybody.
Speaker:but actually what we've got is we've got our whole company
Speaker:all signing in, logging into the online version
Speaker:as well, so, oh, great.
Speaker:they'll all be on the, the online event and kind looking
Speaker:and, and the reason why we've done this, 'cause I
Speaker:want them to learn more in terms of what they can take
Speaker:away to go and involve and improve their roles, improve
Speaker:the products we're doing.
Speaker:So yeah, no, I look forward to Tech Share Pro.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:Are you there, Joe?
Speaker:Yes, question.
Speaker:I'm, I am.
Speaker:Yeah, I've, I've, I've managed to get myself a ticket for
Speaker:all of it, so very, very much looking forward to it, so
Speaker:I'm sure we'll, we'll, we'll meet up for a non-alcoholic
Speaker:beer at some point.
Speaker:Fantastic.
Speaker:Good.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:Well, yeah, thanks again Chris.
Speaker:And yeah, thanks for everyone listening.
