Jane Abbott - Managing Director at PCR Digital

Hi and welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast with me your host, Joe James.

00:09

Throughout this series, I will be interviewing professionals who work within the space to share their expertise, journeys and general thoughts on the key issues facing the industry today.

00:20

My aim is to provide an in-depth look into the world of digital accessibility and the impact it has on the lives of anyone who interacts with digital technology.

00:30

Our goal is to bridge the skills gap in the current market and inspire others to join the movement towards a more accessible digital world.

00:38

So whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, I hope that this platform will provide you with valuable insights and practical advice from experts and advocates in this extremely important community.

00:51

Today on this pilot episode, I'm joined by Jane Abbott, the owner and managing director of PCR Digital.

00:59

Jane has been my mentor and the reason I've had the opportunity to research and discover the world of digital accessibility.

01:07

She's mentored me and many others on the practicalities of recruiting specialists within the field and has a true passion for general accessibility, diversity and inclusion.

01:18

So welcome to the podcast Jane.

01:20

I hope that intro does you justice. Was lovely, thank you, brilliant. And congratulations also, we've recently had the accreditation of the women led business at PCR Digital, so it's great to see. I know, it feels a little bit like I'm a fraud, but we are women led so there you go.

01:38

You can't be a fraud, can you? It's a true thing that's happened.

01:43

So that's brilliant.

01:44

Yeah, um, but thank you again.

01:46

And I guess, um, I've been given a little bit of an intro.

01:49

So obviously you are managing director of PCR Digital where I work and the sponsor of the show.

01:57

But could you share with the listeners a bit more about your background or I guess leading into your experience of digital accessibility as well? Yes.

02:08

So before I was leading PCR, I was just like you Joe as a recruitment consultant.

02:13

And a lot of the work I did at the time was finding front end developers for companies like BBC and smaller companies and ecommerce companies.

02:26

And those front end developers used a lot of tools and I can remember the first time I was like jaws, what is jaws? And that was literally the first time that I had to researchthat tool, ask the people I was talking to, what is it? And even then, when they said it's an accessibility tool, I still didn't really understand it because I've never heard of accessibility in the digital world.

02:49

But that was my very first sort of, you know, getting to know what it was, why they used it, who used it.

02:58

And then one of our contractors became a manager in a company who was setting up a whole accessibility team, and he came to me asking for Accessibility experts with front end skills and I couldn't find any to begin with, but that's how the whole thing started, really. Amazing.

03:18

I think I know which company you're talking about but for legal reasons we can't mention who they are.

03:23

But very, I mean huge, huge company and one of the Forerunners I think for accessibility with their products and services.

03:31

So it's amazing that that was the first sort of company that you were helping to find these people for and I'm currently working with them myself and it's, it's still a challenge you know, and that's probably what, 6, 7, well, I think it's ten years ago, wasn't it? We started working with them.

03:49

Yeah, I think it's over 11 now.

03:50

So long time.

03:52

Amazing.

03:54

Amazing to think that it's probably still as hard now to find people with those skills.

03:59

Um, 10 years in the digital or technological world is a lifetime, you know, the amount of changes.

04:07

But to think that has that much really changed when it comes to accessibility? Because I think people are still struggling to use services and tools or applications, even hardware.

04:21

It's funny because before we started recording we were both talking about wearing our glasses on the call and and there's even that is in the form of assistive technology.

04:31

But I think that you know, you think 10 years ago.

04:35

Someone might just be using a computer all the time and then you think how the phones have developed and then you you know, it's endless, isn't it? All the applications that we use and that should be accessible.

04:47

So the job of accessibility professionals just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

04:52

Yeah, and that's it's forever changing, um.

04:55

And it's always gonna be that way, I think.

04:57

I don't think there's ever gonna be a full stop at the end of the digital world.

05:01

So it's, uh, I guess everyone keeping everyone on their toes every step of the way.

05:08

And I guess it's a big part of it is awareness, um, awareness like you said, um, when someone said about this accessibility tool and well, I'm not quite sure what accessibility actually is and it is a word with quite.

05:23

A few meanings.

05:25

Um, you know you could think of that as access to a physical building or or you know even access to a system without thinking about additional needs or potentially having impairments or disabilities.

05:36

So yeah in terms of awareness, have yourself or PCR digital done anything over the years to help sort of raise awareness for accessibility?So raising awareness.

05:48

I guess our primary role is to find people with accessibility skills and becausewe couldn't find them, we sort of thought how are we going to do this? What, what, what can we do to help our client? So that's when I headed up the London accessibility meet up group and started it.

06:06

And literally I think they were like 12 people.

06:08

after a while and there's now: 3000

06:15

But all of those people who are presenting at that meet up with, you know, making everyone who went and the recordings.

06:24

Making them aware of accessibility and talking more about it.

06:27

So that forum was really, really good for awareness.

06:30

But just in terms of, you know, talking to our clients who might not be aware of it, you know, it's something I think when they're asking for those skills and just asking what they're doing about it, some companies are still doing absolutely nothing and not even aware of it, whereas others are and want to do more.

06:47

So I think it's just in our DNA now because it's so big for us.

06:52

So we do talk about it, yeah.

06:55

And that's, yeah, I guess it is just keeping it within conversation, um, because it shouldn't really be a taboo subject.

07:02

But I think there are quite a lot of companies that, I mean we live in a society where, you know, we have to be profitable and there has to be a return on our investment.

07:10

And unfortunately, you can see the likes of, say, Twitter, where the entire accessibility team were pretty much made redundant not too long ago now.

07:20

And it's not something that I think is a viable thing to do.

07:25

I don't think that you should, you know, it's a personal opinion, I suppose, that I'm raising there.

07:30

But yeah, not having a team that's actually helping your platform or your services be used by 100% of the population.

07:41

Of, you know, instead of 85% of the population, you know, it's 15% of people in the world that have a recognisable disability or impairment of some form.

07:51

That's not even taking into consideration those of us like you and I that have, you know, what we might see as everyday needs.

08:00

Like, yeah, wearing reading glasses when you're using a phone, um, or just an ageing population.

08:07

You know, that's still something to consider.

08:09

Um, not that my gran uses Twitter, but I'm sure that as we get older we might be using those types of platforms because we've grown up with them.

08:20

We will for sure.

08:21

And you know that those redundancies.

08:25

You know, like you say there's a commercial reason for it at the moment and in a way you could think, OK, so everything is accessible as a, you know, at the moment, but three months down the line, six months, whoever goes back in there, it's going to be a horrible job for them because you know, and it, it is an ongoing thing I think in the world of sort of digital accessibility because as soon as anything changes on a website or an app or something, then it, you know, is it still accessible, has it been audited, has it been tested? So it will cost them more.

08:56

Wouldn't it, you know, down the line to bring back a team, I guess.

08:59

It's exactly that, and we've had quite a few.

09:02

I've seen quite a few posts this year alone about the difference in cost.

09:08

As as you move along the software development lifecycle.

09:11

So if you're starting to think about accessibility in the design phase before you've actually invested any money on development.

09:19

It's, I think it's 30 times cheaper, um, than if it's in development stage.

09:25

Because if you've already thought about it, you don't.

09:28

You're not having to refactor any code, you're not having to start from scratch potentially or implement new things.

09:35

And then when you get further and further down the line, there's just so much more work you need to do to sort of undo what you've done to put it right and.

09:46

It does pay to think about things before, you know, putting boots on ground and yeah, bums in seats.

09:51

And that's coming from us as recruiters, you know.

09:55

Yeah.

09:57

But I think that it's, it's very interesting.

09:59

But yeah, maintaining that conversation across the board is always going to be so important and hopefully that's what this will do.

10:05

You know, more and more people will understand the needs for this discussion.

10:12

But I guess it's it has evolved and there is more awareness.

10:15

I personally feel that might be because I'm working in the space and I'm talking to people in that area every day, but have you started to see a bit more out there sort of on social media and things or? I think the public sector is where we're seeing most of the demand most of the concern.

10:36

You know they've they've got a remit to be helping everyone within you know, who used who uses their sights and things so you know the UK population really.

10:46

So I can see why they're doing it but I also think companies some companies who are doing it are very, they they don't need to shout about it.

10:54

You know, it's just part and parcel of what they're doing because they believe it's right.

10:58

And you wouldn't necessarily know that they have people, you know, they might not even have an accessibility team, but they might have some really good developers who are implementing it and trying to, you know, be the advocates in the business for it.

11:12

So it's not always easy to see where it's happening, and it's always nice when you do hear about companies doing it, but I know a lot of companies don't shout about it.

11:23

That's true, and I think that you've hit the nail on the head with with that comment about um, there may be some developers or designers or people in the technical teams that are advocates for accessibility for their own reasons, their own personal interests maybe.

11:39

But unfortunately the the investment isn't there from those that are making decisions within the company and that can really affect things further down the line.

11:48

But also as talking as a recruiter or someone in the sort of resourcing space, it's not great for retaining good quality staff.

11:58

I've spoken to countless front end developers who have said if you're a front end engineer or developer and you're not thinking about accessibility, then you can't really be doing the full job becausethat's more or less what your job is, isn't it? You know, making sure that what you develop is accessible to people.

12:17

And regardless of needs.

12:19

And I know there's more ingrained detail when it comes to additional needs or assistive technologies, but that resonated with me.

12:29

What's the starting point then, Joe, of accessibility, because I've, I'm talking about Web developers, you're talking about Web developers, but actually it's probably the design stage and you know, really a whole group of people talking about it that makes up the accessibility team, isn't it? It is, but I also think it's, I mean it's, it's similar to the information security or cybersecurity space because I used to see that as something that is just, you know, you've got a platform.

13:00

And then, right, we need to make sure it's a separate thing.

13:02

We need to make sure it's secure.

13:04

But actually you've got things like Dev Secops instead of DevOps, where it's ingrained within every single part of the software development lifecycle.

13:13

I think we need that for accessibility because not only does it just need to be spoken about or thought about at the design phase, through development, you need to understand the nuances of how to actually make something a bit more accessible, even through testing.

13:27

You need people that are looking out for the right things, being able to get into that.

13:31

The mind of the user who has an additional need, but not even that you know, you need to make sure you're including those groups of people and not just discounting them.

13:42

I think that's a big part of the problem is you don't see the barriers because if you are an able bodied person with no additional needs, you wouldn't see anything as a particular barrier, you know.

13:54

Oh well, I can read the, the text on my screen just fine at that size, so why should I need to amend it? You know, because they've not had to consider it.

14:04

So I think it's a, from my point of view, I think it is uh, a mindset shift that's needed.

14:12

Um.

14:13

And I think that a lot of people are talking about implementing it within university as well.

14:20

So technical roles and just having it as part of the syllabus because you need to sort of ingrain it within the full role rather than just um as an additional.

14:30

Yeah.

14:31

So that's, you know, I mean that would be interesting to see how that goes.

14:34

And I'm following a few people in the space, so I'm hoping actually to have a lady on a future episode to talk about that as well.

14:42

So that would be great.

14:43

Interesting.

14:43

Yeah.

14:43

See how it's going.

14:45

Brilliant.

14:46

And and um, I did have another question here for you.

14:50

So I think we've already spoken about this actually.

14:53

So reading glasses, you know, is is a big one for us because we both use them.

14:59

But what would you say are some of the the common misconceptions about digital accessibility? I think, I mean we have really talked about it and we and you probably know more than I do these days, but it's just that you know, just because you're able bodied, you know, someone who looks like they're absolutely fine.

15:19

You can't, you can't sort of go well, that's you.

15:23

You know, my husband's got glaucoma.

15:25

That's another visibility thing.

15:27

And I know that sometimes when they're training accessibility, they get to wear different glasses and see how different people with different problems see things.

15:38

But to us these people might look like you or I, you know, so the awareness is a massive great thing that we have to try and, you know, understand and share, isn't it? Because that's the whole thing and you just said this well but when, sorry, I'm not saying this very well but when developers are developing they have to understand what are all the different things that people might have problems or issues with.

16:03

So yeah, I think that's compassion as well, isn't it? It's having that sort of empathy for not everyone's gonna have the same life experiences as you do and being able to, sort of, have that out of body, you know, like, yeah, I'm not just developing for myself, it's it's thinking about others.

16:22

And um, knowing that everyone's different, you know, there's no such thing as normal. There isn't is there? Which is worrying, isn't it? But yeah, all my life I thought I was normal.

16:34

But maybe I'm not.

16:37

It's um.

16:39

Yeah, it's a very fascinating space.

16:41

Um and,beyond the sort of physical disabilities or impairments that people might have, such as sort of motor or visual audio impairments, there's also a lot of work in the neurodiversity space as well.

16:58

So attention deficit disorder, I think that there's so many people out there that have suffered with this for so long that haven't realised, one of the leaders of accessibility at PWC recently announced that he was diagnosed, and I won't name him or anything because I don't know if he's put it out there on LinkedIn and things on social media, but um, after all these years, you know, he's working in the accessibility space, making things better for people with neurodiverse sort of needs.

17:32

And you know, later on in his sort of career, he's now full ohh.

17:37

Actually, I'm making things better for myself.

17:40

That's amazing.

17:40

Yeah.

17:41

And though that's a very much invisible quote unquote disability, yeah, those that have sort of neurodiverse, neurodiversities , I think that's the phrase.

17:53

I'm not sure, um, it's, it's just, yeah, it is never ending and a lot of people unfortunately see it as too much like hard work I think.

18:02

But they're in part of raising awareness.

18:05

It's also raising awareness of the positive effects, the return on that investment.

18:10

Like we've said, 15% of people globally are registered to have a disability.

18:15

So that's 15% of the market that you may have discounted.

18:20

So when you include them,hopefully you're, you'll see an increase on the uh yeah, on your sort of revenues, but um brilliant.

18:29

And then do you have any sort of advice for anyone that's looking at getting into this sort of space at all or? Um, yeah, just in that sort of area.

18:40

I I mean one I think the something like the accessibility meet up is just great and there's others now they're in Glasgow and other cities, aren't they? So there are a number of those.

18:52

So if you can get to one of those or see when one is happening, I think it, it just opens up a whole other world and also they're really nice bunch of people you know like they'll talk and share but otherwise I guess they should be getting in touch with you.

19:09

Well, hopefully, hopefully as a recruiter and advising, I think you know the space really well and um.

19:16

I think you can, you've seen the transferable skills and you've seen the jobs and what skills they have.

19:22

So I think you know if you're really wanting to work in that space and you're kind of got digital or tech skills and it's worth a chat with you to kind of understand what's out there and what's your roles.

19:34

Definitely, and I like that you've mentioned that as well, that it's having that understanding and I've only got that through having conversations with people in this space.

19:43

And that's the reason I've decided to.

19:46

It's very fulfilling.

19:47

I think the work that the people do that I help find roles in the area is extremely fulfilling.

19:53

They feel that it's, you know, tech for good.

19:54

It's they're actually making a real positive difference to so many people's lives, and you can do that without being in the accessibility space.

20:02

Don't get me wrong, but even for me, it's just having conversations with people that's grown my knowledge of the field, and it's absolutely fascinating to see what can be achieved through technological advancements and just knowledge of um and and just sharing of experience I think because opening your eyes that no two people have the same experience in life.

20:30

Even identical twins, um.

20:33

It's just fascinating.

20:34

Yeah, it is.

20:35

Yeah.

20:37

And you know me, Jane, I'm very inquisitive, so I love to ask a question or two.

20:41

So.

20:43

Definitely.

20:44

But brilliant.

20:45

Thank you so much and and for for the chat and and for everything so.

20:50

Um, I guess that would be a wrap for this, this episode, but just wanna thank you so much again for this first episode.

20:58

Um, we've got future guests that are lined up and hopefully raring to go and we'll be discussing a bit more sort of hands on accessibility.

21:07

And I'm looking forward to sort of discussing their current work and what they're doing in upcoming episodes.

21:13

But if you are listening and you're looking to build an accessibility team yourself or take your own career in that sort ofdirection then I am here to help, and I've got sort of years of experience and a large network within accessibility and the resources to help you achieve those goals as well, so don't hesitate to reach out.

21:34

I can be,you can find all of our jobs posted on www.pcrdigital.comI can be found on LinkedIn or Twitter at PCR Joe.

21:45

Or you can e-mail me joe.james@pcrdigital.com.

21:50

But after all of that, thank you again for tuning in and I can't wait to bring you even more expert insights and practical advice in the next episode.

21:59

And thanks again, Jane.

22:00

Thanks.

22:01

Bye.