Paul Van Workum - App Accessibility Expert
In this episode, Joe James is joined by Paul Van Workum, App Accessibility Expert and Co-Founder of Abra and Appt.
This episode discusses:
How Paul Van Workum entered the accessibility space, and what prompted him to create accessibility training platforms for developers and clients.
- The costs and difficulties associated with making applications accessible, and where to find resources that can help applications to be in line with WCAG guidelines.
- Training platforms that can help developers to learn about accessibility in applications.
- The most simple and cost-effective ways to implement digital accessibility in the workplace.
The whole episode also touches on wider perceptions of disability and digital accessibility and discusses the impact that investing and developing applications in this way can have.
Links and Resources:
Paul Van Workum (LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulvanworkum
Joe James (LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/
PCR Digital Recruitment (Website): https://www.pcrdigital.com/
Abra (Website): https://abra.nl/
Appt (Website): https://appt.org/en
This podcast is sponsored by PCR Digital, digital and technology recruitment specialists.
Transcript
Hi and welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast. With me, your host,
Speaker:Joe James. Throughout this series, I will be interviewing professionals who work
Speaker:within the space to share their expertise, journeys and general thoughts on the key
Speaker:issues facing the industry today. My aim is to provide an in-depth look
Speaker:into the world of digital accessibility and the impact it has on the
Speaker:lives of anyone who interacts with digital technology. Our goal is to bridge the
Speaker:skills gap in the current market and inspire others to join the movement
Speaker:towards a more accessible digital market. So whether you're a seasoned professional
Speaker:or just starting out, I hope that this platform will provide you with
Speaker:valuable insights and
Speaker:practical advice from experts and advocates in
Speaker:this industry.
Speaker:Today, on this episode of the Digital Accessibility podcast, I am absolutely
Speaker:honoured to be joined by Paul Van Workum, co-owner and accessibility
Speaker:advisor of Abra. Abra builds software and provides advice to people to help make
Speaker:digital accessibility understandable. Paul is also one of the managers of
Speaker:the Appt Foundation, which we'll hear more about later, I hope. He's been working
Speaker:within the accessibility field for the last four years and prior to that
Speaker:has been an entrepreneur in the technology development space for over ten years. He's
Speaker:making a huge and truly positive impact on the European web and mobile
Speaker:accessibility market and is hoping to increase this impact globally. I hope that
Speaker:that introduction is accurate, Paul, but forgive me if I've missed anything at
Speaker:all.
Speaker:Yes, sounds good. So I don't have to introduce myself anymore?
Speaker:Yeah, well, I was going to say if there is anything I've missed, then
Speaker:fire away. But I guess my first official question would be about your
Speaker:background or how you first came across accessibility. Yeah, okay.
Speaker:Yeah. First, thanks for having me on this podcast. Yeah, it's nice that you
Speaker:invited me and I think it's really cool to share our story that we
Speaker:have and about the cool projects that we are doing and to realise our
Speaker:goals to make the apps, all apps accessible. First, we did it in the
Speaker:Netherlands, but more and more we're moving abroad. So this is really cool
Speaker:podcast to share the story that we've been going through. Yeah. My name is
Speaker:Paul Van Workum. I see myself as entrepreneur, like, I'm living in the
Speaker:Netherlands and I'm a dad of three and in the last twelve years I've
Speaker:been developing myself, created a few companies, did some really interesting
Speaker:projects, I can say. And basically it started with the apps. I started like
Speaker:seven years ago. Together with my wife. We were going to build apps. We
Speaker:have a team in Ukraine that does the development and we did the project
Speaker:management and basically I got introduced to someone and that was
Speaker:the starting point, but the starting point in the accessibility world.
Speaker:I think we come to that later, right?
Speaker:Yeah, I'm sure we will, hopefully. But that's brilliant. So like you said you've
Speaker:been in that sort of technological space, development space, for quite some time
Speaker:now, which is excellent. So you've probably seen things from both ends.
Speaker:For me, digital accessibility is something that I stumbled upon because of
Speaker:my work as a recruitment consultant working with companies. That was the
Speaker:request, so they asked for people with experience in that space. However,
Speaker:my impression is that accessibility is something that can be stumbled upon by
Speaker:able-bodied people, because I feel that unless you have your personal experience
Speaker:in needing assistive technology or some assistance with digital accessibility,
Speaker:it's kind of just something that's there that's not really spoken about. But I
Speaker:don't know. Is that your experience? Is it something that's stumbled upon or
Speaker:otherwise?
Speaker:Yeah, for me, I was developing apps, of course. And for me, meeting Jan Jaap de Groot
Speaker:was a starting point. It was in 2020, just before COVID and he's a
Speaker:real expert in actually building those apps for people at that time, mainly people
Speaker:that are blind, so that the screen reader is working and that experience is
Speaker:now way more broad. But in the beginning, it was, like, focused on screen
Speaker:reader users and yeah, basically on the app told me that there would be
Speaker:some legislation. So I told him that's interesting. And like, entrepreneurial as
Speaker:I am, I asked him, like, okay, just send me some information and we
Speaker:will look at it, and I'll check it out, and it's always interesting to
Speaker:get some new insights. But basically he told that there was no information
Speaker:available. So legislation for all governments and all commercial companies,
Speaker:but there's no information and no solutions. We knew that there was going
Speaker:to be quite a big need, but there was still no solution. Basically, at
Speaker:that time, just before COVID we started it as basically a hobby project, like
Speaker:writing down articles, like investigating and basically starting our
Speaker:knowledge platform at that time. And yeah, that hobby project
Speaker:became a little bit bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, bigger and
Speaker:basically, like, the platform now expanded to having a lot of information
Speaker:about the different kinds of assistive technologies and how many people are using
Speaker:those, about the standards and how to interpret them, but also on how to
Speaker:fix errors. We have about 300 code examples at the moment. So, yeah, if
Speaker:you want to make an app accessible, just check appt.org, and it's 100% for
Speaker:free, and that's the way we want to
Speaker:work, like, share a lot of things for free. And there's always companies
Speaker:that will hire us to do, let's say, paid advice or something like
Speaker:that. Sure, yeah. Basically, in the beginning, it was like kind of a
Speaker:business opportunity for me. So big opportunity. If the bigger companies, the
Speaker:bigger app builders need something and they don't know how, then of course
Speaker:it's a business opportunity. But, yeah, we try to make it like so
Speaker:that we have a lot of impact as well. So we want to create
Speaker:win-win situations for the user, for the companies and also for ourselves so
Speaker:that we can also continue the things that we're doing. But yeah, what I
Speaker:see is that we created a reporting app and we got like around 400
Speaker:reports from real users and I was the one following up those reports to
Speaker:the companies.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So meeting all those people and seeing their problems that you can't put the
Speaker:heating higher because your app is not working or that you have a washing
Speaker:machine and it has an update and then you can't control it anymore. Really
Speaker:things that we are not able to understand but basically really important
Speaker:things that it influenced their ability to communicate, to communicate with
Speaker:their government. Like really important things that are not working and not, not
Speaker:working because they are not skilled, but not working because it's not working. So
Speaker:that there's a door that is closed and it's not closed because the user
Speaker:did something wrong, but because the app builder did something wrong. And that's
Speaker:like for the business opportunities it's interesting. But I really feel that we
Speaker:have a big responsibility now as well to make the choices that we
Speaker:can make the apps more accessible. So it became our mission really to do
Speaker:that.
Speaker:Absolutely. Yeah. And that's the thing. I mean, like you mentioned there from the
Speaker:reports that you were getting through the reporting tool that you'd created, some of
Speaker:those things you probably wouldn't have thought of in your own personal life
Speaker:because I think technology affects people in so many different ways. But that's
Speaker:fascinating and admirable that you decided to do something about it. But I
Speaker:like that you've mentioned it was a business opportunity and that's the world
Speaker:we live in, right. We have to have a return on investment. We have
Speaker:to be able to do things that we can make sustainable but it's now
Speaker:become more of a mission or feel like it's a personal duty to make
Speaker:things accessible.
Speaker:What we saw is that in the beginning we had an hourly rate internally
Speaker:that was too low and we were able to do all those big projects
Speaker:ourselves, but we were not able to scale up because if we would hire
Speaker:other people, no one wanted to work for the same tariff and we were
Speaker:building our company. So for us it was like building the reporting app,
Speaker:building the platform, building. We did quite some paid
Speaker:blocks with subsidies from some funds like the Bartimeus funds and SIDN funds in
Speaker:the Netherlands. And also the government from the Netherlands really helped us. For
Speaker:example, those code examples were paid by the Dutch government. Wow. So they paid
Speaker:us and we worked for low tariffs. But in the end we have 300
Speaker:code examples that we offer for free. But of course, this is for the
Speaker:user, is great for app building companies, it's great for the government, it's great.
Speaker:But we created those companies. So if there's questions like who will be asked?
Speaker:So it's also, for us in the end, good. But I think the approach
Speaker:that we have is that we want to have impact. And if we have
Speaker:impact, then the business opportunity comes from that and it's not the
Speaker:other way around.
Speaker:No, absolutely. And I completely agree with that. I think that's admirable. I
Speaker:think that's how more things should be in the world, but excellent. And that's
Speaker:really great. And like you said, you identified the issue of there not being
Speaker:really any documentation or any advice really out there or examples. So
Speaker:it's great that you've put that in place. But I feel that, as with
Speaker:every technical field, there's somewhat of a skill shortage. So you met Jan Jaap,
Speaker:and he's been able to help you with the development side of things. And
Speaker:my job as a recruiter is to help find more people with those types
Speaker:of skills for other companies. So do you have an idea or do you
Speaker:have any advice on how we might be able to keep up with that
Speaker:demand? I know that you've created a very good solution there with training and
Speaker:advice, but do you have any advice on how to attract that kind of
Speaker:talent or training in that space?
Speaker:I can share some numbers. Great accessibility when implemented well, so
Speaker:that if you have the structure there, the processes and knowledge and then to
Speaker:make your app accessible, it costs around 10% to 15% extra.
Speaker:Wow. Okay.
Speaker:If you don't have those processes in place and you have to start from
Speaker:scratch, it will cost you even more. But basically that means that if you
Speaker:have a development team of 100 developers, for example, in the Netherlands, the
Speaker:bigger banks and the media companies and insurance companies, they have that kind
Speaker:of teams, you need around 15 extra people, basically to
Speaker:be able to develop the same functionality, but then in an accessible way if
Speaker:implemented well. And most companies don't have that in place yet. So this
Speaker:is really a big challenge. It's not possible, basically, that we have 15%
Speaker:extra developers. I don't know how it is in the rest of the world,
Speaker:but in the Netherlands, it's like already a big shortage now without the need
Speaker:of developing in an accessible way. But what we try to do there is
Speaker:we want to make accessibility easier and more fun.
Speaker:So if you have to fix an issue and you can look at appt.org and you
Speaker:can find it right away, then of course it helps with lowering the amount.
Speaker:And if that happens, of course, if more companies and more developers can
Speaker:easily find solutions and easily find the knowledge, then more steps are made in
Speaker:accessibility work. But there's a shortage, so it's always a balance, and
Speaker:it's not possible to do everything. So if you make it easier to do
Speaker:it, then that's where you can have a big impact, basically. We had the
Speaker:platform appt.org, and I think it's interesting platform, but still we were
Speaker:giving a lot of training to companies. So we give the kind of kickoff
Speaker:training, it's like to learn the basics. It's normally 2 hours, and I think
Speaker:we gave it for a few thousand people already and it's nice, but we
Speaker:thought like, okay, what if we can record that? And in the end it
Speaker:turned out that if you record it, I don't give that many examples, so
Speaker:it can be within half an hour. So if you now go to academy.abra.nl
Speaker:you can find the free training of half an hour. I think
Speaker:you followed it yesterday. Yesterday. So it just recently launched. And if you
Speaker:follow it after half an hour, you know the basics and you know also
Speaker:where to find the other stuff you need on appt.org if you want to
Speaker:explore more and that kind of thing, I believe that a lot
Speaker:of developers will get the awareness on how important this is, but also find
Speaker:the tools and the information they need to be able to do it themselves.
Speaker:So that's as a company that gives advice to companies how to do this,
Speaker:maybe not smart, but what we see is that in the Netherlands at least
Speaker:because we do those things, that also the bigger banks and insurance companies
Speaker:and media companies that like for a relatively small company, we have quite a
Speaker:market cap because we are really efficient, because we know we
Speaker:created the content, so we know where it is. And I only have to
Speaker:send you to the right URL and then you know how to fix things
Speaker:or how to find the knowledge that you need. That's I think what we
Speaker:want to achieve that we make the accessibility easier and a bit more fun.
Speaker:Yeah, amazing. And you're making digital accessibility more accessible or the
Speaker:implementation of accessibility accessible.
Speaker:Yeah, I always tell the story about we had like a book,
Speaker:we developed it. We will now, this coming months, develop it, translate it
Speaker:to English and also print it again. But what we always say is that
Speaker:on Friday afternoon at 03:00, if you then think like, okay, let's have 2
Speaker:hours of accessibility. If you then go to the WCAG guidelines, then five minutes
Speaker:later you're drinking beer and celebrating the weekend instead of reading the book.
Speaker:And to get the first insight, because WCAG is really great to go to
Speaker:the last 10%, but to make a first step, it's really elaborate, really
Speaker:complicated, and we try to make it a bit more easier. And sometimes it's
Speaker:what we do is not in the book. It's a simplification meaning that
Speaker:you lose context. And that indeed, it's not like it could
Speaker:be that you oversimplicate. But the problem with accessibility is that
Speaker:developers don't know where to start. And if you solve that in the next
Speaker:steps, it will become better.
Speaker:Absolutely. And I completely agree I feel that it's one of those things that
Speaker:how on earth can you if it's something you've not come across before,
Speaker:you've not really discussed, and you have maybe someone's reported an accessibility
Speaker:issue with an application or a website and the only documentation you have is
Speaker:this extremely verbose, elaborate documentation called WCAG and of course
Speaker:it's all numbered and if you know what you're looking for, you can find
Speaker:solutions, but if you don't know what you're looking for, then you'd be just
Speaker:as lost. But that's great. It brings me on to my next question as
Speaker:well, because I've discussed previously with a lot of people about the
Speaker:difference between the documentation that's available for web or website
Speaker:accessibility and mobile application accessibility. Because WCAG, you've got
Speaker:sort of the ISOs or the Equality Acts and things that primarily focus on
Speaker:website or web accessibility. But there isn't really much in the UK market
Speaker:or I believe in the global market that has really sort of
Speaker:drilled down into the mobile side of things. So applications and I believe
Speaker:that's what yourself, Abra and Appt have sort of done, but maybe you
Speaker:can share some more info on that side of things.
Speaker:Yes, the governments and also, I think in future, the commercial
Speaker:companies look at the EN standard, at least in Europe, and in the EN
Speaker:standard, it's referred to the WCAG Guidelines and it's the best we
Speaker:have now. And it's not ideal because some interpretation is not
Speaker:yeah, it's an app, it's a different kind of thing, but it's the best we
Speaker:have and you can interpret it quite well. And also if you follow the
Speaker:guidelines and you have to be able to perceive things, you have to be
Speaker:able to operate things and you have to be able to understand things. And
Speaker:then, yeah, you have certain criteria where you look at and if you
Speaker:read that and you think, okay, we have users that are using this app,
Speaker:and we have kind of a guideline saying you should be able to see,
Speaker:to perceive everything. Then for deaf people, audio is quite challenging. So
Speaker:there should be an alternative for visually impaired. Like if you're blind,
Speaker:you need to have the screen reader read everything for you. So if you
Speaker:see something that is important, it should be read. It's not that complicated, but
Speaker:there's a lot of people, different kind of people with different kind of I
Speaker:don't see I always want to avoid saying disabled people or people with a
Speaker:disability. I always say I want to say people dependent on their screen
Speaker:reader and people dependent on keyboard or people dependent on larger font size by
Speaker:doing that, basically, if you implement a larger font size and the screen reader
Speaker:and that it works, then those people don't have a disability because they can
Speaker:fully participate. And that's the thing that the guideline is not ideal, but
Speaker:the goal is that users can participate. Also from the guideline the goal is
Speaker:that there's some kind of black and white checklist, say, okay, if I do
Speaker:this, then users can participate equally. And I think WCAG is a great
Speaker:first step. But what I see, I
Speaker:followed up 400 of those reports. It's quite a cool reporting app we
Speaker:created because basically we had a form on our site where you can just
Speaker:put some information. And then I got an email stating, like, a user has
Speaker:an issue somewhere. I was always asking them, which app, what kind of hardware
Speaker:and what kind of software are you using? And then before I knew the
Speaker:issue, there was eight emails already. Further and really
Speaker:challenging, what we did is we created an app. You can just make a
Speaker:profile really easily, like, I think four or five steps. Then you make a
Speaker:new report, and at the time you make the report, you just type something
Speaker:like, yeah, I was going to our news app, and in the tabs in
Speaker:the bottom, they don't have labels. So it's for me hard to navigate. Okay,
Speaker:great. But then for a developer, it's quite complicated because
Speaker:I can see those steps. Like, what's wrong with it? Like screen reader, I
Speaker:don't know what it is. What are you talking about? So there's a lot
Speaker:of problems that users don't understand the developer and the developer doesn't
Speaker:understand users. And what we try to do is that if the user presses
Speaker:send, we ask basically the app to reach out. Which hardware, which software?
Speaker:Is he using dark mode is he using the screen reader? What font sizes
Speaker:is he using? So we get those information, including the text feedback,
Speaker:and then we ask the user, I know you're using the screen reader, but
Speaker:we have a really cool instruction video. And you can make a screen recording of
Speaker:you navigating to that tab bar and by showing the video. And the tab
Speaker:bar states, like in the news app stating like, tab one, tab two, tab
Speaker:three, tab four. So, yes, a guy I'm blind it's, read out, but it
Speaker:doesn't have a label, so I'm not able to understand it. And then we
Speaker:say, okay, great. We add our solution. I say, okay, labels to tabs that's
Speaker:appt.ly / 4.1.2. So also a solution. And then you have a report that
Speaker:is done like one issue, you can fix it. So that's something that we
Speaker:do in our foundation. So we have an app foundation. It's the free
Speaker:knowledge and the reporting app. But also on our business side, it's called Abra.
Speaker:We have the Academy, it's also for free. But basically we want to make
Speaker:some more like iOS and Android developer trainings. And that will
Speaker:be paid in order to have also that we can maintain
Speaker:all those knowledge. But the cool thing is, if you have one report that
Speaker:you can follow up, really good. If I ask a user to go to
Speaker:a certain app and ask 14 questions and I ask maybe five groups of
Speaker:people depending on a keyboard or screen reader. Or then I have 15
Speaker:people, 15 reports. It's like 200 something like tickets with videos. And
Speaker:then you have a really extensive user research. We did a few of those
Speaker:and that input it's for companies that are already, let's say,
Speaker:almost comply to the WCAG guidelines. And then you still see that there's a
Speaker:lot of low-hanging fruit, basically on improving the app.
Speaker:And it has nothing to do with WCAG, it has to do something with
Speaker:user experience. So it's like it has certain steps in that as well.
Speaker:And are you sort of using the WCAG guidelines as a guideline and then
Speaker:mirroring that to what the similar sort of solution may be in an iOS
Speaker:or an Android application? Are you using that as the foundation or is it
Speaker:completely an entirely different.
Speaker:Now, the WCAG guideline, it's not dependent on technology, so
Speaker:you can interpret it quite well for apps,
Speaker:what I see is that, what we do is basically we do audits, like
Speaker:full research and then really test apps to the full WCAG guidelines.
Speaker:That's one. And two, there's the usability testing with users. I think those two
Speaker:are you should do both if you want to make your user happy. Because
Speaker:only with user testing, I think it's not the best first step because first
Speaker:you should make your app technically equal, equally, that there's labels and
Speaker:that the larger font size and landscape mode that's working, that the contrast is
Speaker:good. First you need to do that. And if you do that well and
Speaker:then ask users for feedback, then you get feedback that is valuable because if
Speaker:you ask users feedback, then they're able to give feedback if your app is
Speaker:really bad. But as a professional, I can give the feedback way more faster
Speaker:and also give solutions right away. Then user research
Speaker:is quite expensive compared to a professional just making a video of the
Speaker:app and giving comments while testing the app. So, yeah, what we see is
Speaker:that it's not one solution for all the companies, but
Speaker:the first step should be making your app usable and complying to the guidelines
Speaker:as much as possible and then also ask users to make the last step
Speaker:and that the usability is becoming better.
Speaker:Definitely. Perfect. Okay, brilliant. Thank you. And I think so there
Speaker:was another question, I think that we've already approached, which is fine. So I'll
Speaker:just move on to one of the last probably the final question for this
Speaker:podcast, which I'm hoping to do in every episode, is what do you believe
Speaker:is the simplest, most cost-effective and convenient way that someone could
Speaker:implement more digital accessibility in their own workplace? So that's anyone at
Speaker:any level, I suppose. So it's quite difficult question, I suppose, but do you
Speaker:have any nuggets of advice for people?
Speaker:Yeah, in our reporting app, we got quite a lot of
Speaker:reports, and about 50% of them is that there's no labels, right?
Speaker:It's really easy to fix. So if you say we're at the starting point
Speaker:of accessibility, we didn't look at the accessibility yet. Okay, put on a screen
Speaker:reader. It's not that complicated. Go from left to right, top to bottom to
Speaker:the screen. If you have any missing labels, add them. This is really simple.
Speaker:It will take you a few hours, probably, but then the screen reader at
Speaker:least reads out what you visually see. And then, of course, things can be
Speaker:complicated and it can be, let's say, mixed up and difficult, but at least
Speaker:you hear what's under the button that you're going to press. And that's one.
Speaker:Secondly, maybe I regret saying this later, but
Speaker:what we do when we start with advising companies is that I put I
Speaker:take my phone, put large font size on, put the screen reader on,
Speaker:and just make a screen recording and then go from left to right, top
Speaker:to bottom, through the screen, and say, yeah, this is a button. It's a
Speaker:back button. It should have the name back because otherwise it will just
Speaker:announce Button. Or this is a title. Oh, you should mark it as a
Speaker:title. It's 1.3.1. Oh, by the way, this is, I don't know, tab
Speaker:bar. It should have a name. It's missing now. And it should say that
Speaker:it's the first out of four tabs. Okay, great. Thanks for listening. It
Speaker:takes me maybe five minutes. That's how we do consultancy. Just really, like, test
Speaker:the screen in five minutes, give them ten points that they should fix and
Speaker:they can be working. Maybe it's nice. I don't know how many people will
Speaker:watch this so that maybe I will regret it, but if you want to
Speaker:make the first step, just send me an email or email Joe. Maybe
Speaker:that's better. Accessibility is really difficult
Speaker:because it's like 50 points from the WCAG guidelines. It's so many things that
Speaker:can go wrong, but to make a first big step, just it's not that
Speaker:easy. And I don't do this to make sales afterwards because all
Speaker:solutions are appt.org. You can do it yourself. It's even a training at academy.abra
Speaker:that's also for free. So all the steps, you can do it yourself,
Speaker:you can do it for free. So, yeah, there's no excuse not to do
Speaker:any inaccessible apps anymore.
Speaker:That's it. And I think there's no excuse, at least for the like you
Speaker:say, the first step and adding labels, I think that's a great thing that
Speaker:we can sort of take away from this. It's a fundamental thing. It's
Speaker:something that will make life better for a huge amount of people. Like you
Speaker:said, 50% of the reports on your own sort of foundation mentioned labels.
Speaker:So it's a small thing that can make a huge difference. So thank you.
Speaker:That's great bit of advice. So I guess finally, just if you'd like to
Speaker:share any more information you have. I know. You've mentioned Abra and the Appt
Speaker:Foundation. I'll be sharing the links alongside this podcast. But if you've got
Speaker:any sort of websites that you'd like to sort of mention or anything else
Speaker:that you'd like people to sort of go and follow after listening this, fire
Speaker:away.
Speaker:Yeah, I think the most important we already mentioned, maybe it's nice to
Speaker:mention that on the platform appt.org that there are some beginner guides on how
Speaker:to start and how to start testing. Those two are really you can
Speaker:start with everything and then you are drinking beer five minutes past three.
Speaker:It's best to make a first step that is, let's say, easy and fun
Speaker:and you see that it improves. That you then take it layer by layer
Speaker:by layer, that you make steps in a certain direction. That the first step
Speaker:should be small, easy, and you should see results really fast. And that's
Speaker:something that we would like to trigger.
Speaker:Brilliant. Perfect. Excellent. Great stuff. So, like I said, I'll share
Speaker:links and things as well and let people know how to get in touch
Speaker:with you if they want to ask you any questions or hopefully send you
Speaker:some business, some business your way to help them increase their accessibility,
Speaker:which would be great. And I'd like to just finish with a quote that
Speaker:actually touches on something you said earlier in the episode, and that is
Speaker:when a flower does not bloom, you fix the environment, you don't fix the
Speaker:flower. And that's something that you mentioned earlier, that if you take away
Speaker:those barriers or those doors or those blockers, then that person that's using it
Speaker:no longer has a disability because it's actually the environment that's disabling
Speaker:people or the application that's disabling people rather than their own sort of
Speaker:abilities. So thank you so much again for all of your knowledge, everything that
Speaker:you're doing in the space, it's admirable and yeah, really appreciate your time
Speaker:again. Thank you, Paul.
Speaker:You're welcome. Bye bye. See each other soon.
