Ronny Hendriks - Global Accessibility Awareness Day 2023
A special hour-long episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast featuring Ronny Hendriks, Head of Accessibility at Nomensa. We discuss Ronny’s own battles with RSI and his journey into the world of A11y, the work he is currently doing to support the growth and innovation of huge global companies through the adoption of Accessibility. We chat about how A11y is a mindset (not just a ‘nice to have’ or a ‘feature’), imposter syndrome when working within the space without your own lived experience, and what we should do to continually raise awareness within the field of Digital Accessibility.
Resource Links:
- Nomensa, Strategic UX agency: https://www.nomensa.com
- Toegankelijk Online, Accessibility Blog: https://toegankelijkonline.nl/en
- PCR Digital, Digital and Technology Recruitment: https://www.pcrdigital.com/
Joe's Social Media Links:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/A11yJoe
Ronny's Social Media Links:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronnyhendriks/
- Mastodon, a11y.info: https://a11y.info/@toegonline
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/toegonline
Transcript
Hi, and welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.
Speaker:With me, your host, Joe James. Throughout this series
Speaker:I will be interviewing professionals who work within the space to share their expertise,
Speaker:journeys and general thoughts on the key issues facing the industry today.
Speaker:My aim is to provide an indepth look into the world of digital
Speaker:accessibility and the impact it has on the lives of anyone who interact with
Speaker:digital technology. Our goal is to bridge the skills
Speaker:gap in the current market and inspire others to join the movement towards a
Speaker:more accessible digital world. So whether you're a seasoned professional
Speaker:or just starting out, I hope that this platform will provide you with
Speaker:valuable insights, practical advice from experts and advocates.
Speaker:Today, I'm joined by Ronnie Hendrix, who is the head of accessibility at no
Speaker:Mensa. No.
Speaker:Mensa are a strategic UX agency based in Bristol, London and Amsterdam.
Speaker:They work hard to create groundbreaking experiences that make a measurable
Speaker:difference to the way that people live. Ronnie has been with the accessibility
Speaker:team at no Mensa for almost two years now, working with some huge brands
Speaker:and clients across a variety of industries.
Speaker:He also provides talks and webinars on a regular basis to increase awareness of
Speaker:what we can all be doing to ensure a more accessible world for
Speaker:everyone. So, welcome to the podcast, Ronnie.
Speaker:Hi, Joe. Yeah, thank you for having me here
Speaker:today on the podcast. Thrilled to be chatting some accessibility
Speaker:with you. It's like you said, Global Accessibility
Speaker:Awareness Day. So, yeah, an amazing opportunity every
Speaker:year to bring another, further bit of awareness to this amazing field of work.
Speaker:There is, of course, countless other online and offline activities going on across the
Speaker:space and across the globe. But, yeah, glad to bring some of
Speaker:that on your podcast today.
Speaker:Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to have you here
Speaker:and as someone that's I think quite well known across the space with your
Speaker:talks and webinars. So, really, it's an honour to have
Speaker:you talking on this episode. It's great.
Speaker:This the 12th Annual Global Accessibility Awareness Day, or 'GAAD'.
Speaker:It's great that there is a full day just to celebrate the advances that we've
Speaker:had so far, but there's still a way to go, as we both know.
Speaker:So, yeah, I'm sure we'll speak a bit more about that as we go
Speaker:through the episode.
Speaker:We probably will, yes.
Speaker:So we met recently, had a great chat, put the world to rights.
Speaker:It wasn't all digital accessibility, but that was the main focus, I suppose,
Speaker:and I'm sure we'll do the same again today.
Speaker:But to save us sort of going off topic, I'm going to try and
Speaker:stick to some pre-set questions to keep us on track, if that's okay with
Speaker:you?
Speaker:Yeah, that should be fine. By all means, try and keep me
Speaker:on the rails!
Speaker:I'll try my very best. So I guess I'd like to start
Speaker:by discussing or asking you how your journey into accessibility began.
Speaker:As I believe you started out studying I.T. And development from quite a young
Speaker:age?
Speaker:yeah, I did. So, yeah, right into the deep end.
Speaker:Well, that is correct. I've been around computers for as long
Speaker:as I can remember, really, which eventually led me to a study IT.
Speaker:It was a pretty broad one, though. It contained both the hard and the
Speaker:software side. So we did a lot of fiddling
Speaker:around with Cisco routers and programming all at the same time, really.
Speaker:And then my initial contact with accessibility was in my
Speaker:final year. I developed repeated stress injury - RSI
Speaker:problems, having, of course, ignored all of the symptoms that go ahead, like
Speaker:tingling fingers and all that jazz. Yeah, that was my really first
Speaker:interaction, that accessibility came into my viewing perspective
Speaker:and I needed to change the way I was working.
Speaker:I found that it was really hard to work, even with the
Speaker:programmes and the web pages that I was building at the time, which
Speaker:was pretty confrontational, to say the least. Into
Speaker:transitioning, I dabbled into speech recognition to maybe help with writing my
Speaker:papers. And I think looking back, still one
Speaker:of the things that baffles me the most that looking at well, now, you
Speaker:click on a microphone on your mobile device and it will basically transcribe
Speaker:whatever you say even me as a non-native English person.
Speaker:I can dictate in English and it'll recognise my speech in pretty high
Speaker:fidelity without it needing any sort of training or onboarding.
Speaker:But back then, like a good 20 years ago, when I dabbled in with
Speaker:Dragon, at the time, I had to spend countless and countless hours trying
Speaker:to train the software to recognise my voice.
Speaker:And then, if I was in a different space, didn't bring my headset with me,
Speaker:so I had to work with the onboard microphone and you were basically
Speaker:back at square one again. And it didn't matter whether that was
Speaker:Dutch or English. Very laborious process
Speaker:to get that running. And I think that's one of the
Speaker:things that we often forget, right? It's like, yes, there's a lot happening,
Speaker:but we've already come very far in the past two decades and that speed
Speaker:of progress, that just seems to be picking up.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely. I wanted to just mention something there
Speaker:when you said that you're not a native English speaker, I've got to say
Speaker:that your English is much better than my Dutch would be.
Speaker:It's a good thing that I'm not trying to do this podcast in Dutch!
Speaker:But maybe we can transcribe and translate it for a Dutch audience as well?
Speaker:I can probably do a bit of translation there.
Speaker:That would be brilliant.
Speaker:Anyways, heading back to that intro into accessibility,
Speaker:after dealing with repeated stress injury for about a year, trying to
Speaker:recover, I was really debating, like, should I really be continuing to work
Speaker:in the IT sector? Would that be really the wisest choice
Speaker:for me? Mostly from a physical point of view
Speaker:at the time, I decided to change course.
Speaker:I've always been like a people person. I've had interest in psychology.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Sociology.
Speaker:Yeah. Sociology.
Speaker:Is that it? Even?
Speaker:I mean, I am a native English speaker and I can't say it!
Speaker:there's those types of words that I just cannot articulate well.
Speaker:But to pick it up, I had that interest and I
Speaker:switched into a social work direction. And I think that to this day,
Speaker:that has probably been one of the most valuable choices at the time, as
Speaker:that really put a foundation into play. What turned me
Speaker:further on my current work with accessibility and what drives me.
Speaker:Just learning more about how people function, not only in a physical way, but
Speaker:also in a mental way. And things like dealing with adversities.
Speaker:And to be honest, it helped myself a lot as well.
Speaker:It would prove a lot quicker, though, that I wanted then, because a good
Speaker:three years in, the repetitive stress injury flared up again really badly at the
Speaker:time, and very quickly, in a matter of weeks.
Speaker:I was basically unable to do most physical activities that included my hands.
Speaker:Drinking was hard, like cooking food, peeling potatoes, that kind of thing was
Speaker:near impossible for quite a while, and I had to basically drop out
Speaker:and stop my social work studies, which to this day still pains me a bit,
Speaker:not having finished that. But by the time I recovered to
Speaker:a point where I could probably pick it back up again, so many years
Speaker:had gone by that I would basically have to start all over again, which
Speaker:which I've not done yet. But yeah, so I would spend about
Speaker:the next four years basically recovering before I started reintegrating back into
Speaker:work.
Speaker:An awful long time to be suffering with that.
Speaker:And then, like you said, working on, like you said, I think you've mentioned
Speaker:it just now, utilising accessibility features and things to help you with
Speaker:day to day sort of living. And did you do that throughout those
Speaker:four years of recovery? I'm assuming that you'd delved even deeper.
Speaker:Yeah, in those years where, especially in the beginning,
Speaker:I had to fall back on what I had already discovered in the years
Speaker:before. But because of the high severity of
Speaker:the pain I was dealing with and being physically incapable of doing much,
Speaker:I had to further explore options that were out there in terms of
Speaker:other types of peripherals. For example, to be able to make
Speaker:a living situation possible and still be able to use a
Speaker:computer to a point where you could do things like your taxes and explore
Speaker:avenues of work, look up treatments. All of that information
Speaker:was all digital. And especially at the time, repeated
Speaker:stress injury wasn't like a well known thing.
Speaker:So I had a really hard time getting any diagnosis done properly.
Speaker:So that took a lot of online research as well which I needed
Speaker:accessibility features for, and then you only run into further problems, really.
Speaker:So that's when I started getting more exposed to, okay,
Speaker:if I need this, there's other people that need this... And what is required
Speaker:to make that happen. So that's when I got exposed to
Speaker:the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and things like that, that's basically
Speaker:when everything that started rolling on from there on out.
Speaker:And that's, I suppose, with you. We hear this a lot in the
Speaker:digital accessibility community. It's your own lived experience, right?
Speaker:It's something that you've experienced, you've felt the need for an additional
Speaker:feature or an accessibility feature to help you to access information.
Speaker:And it's paramount that.. It just goes to show that those that need access
Speaker:to something like the World Wide Web, to look into treatments, to look into
Speaker:diagnoses, to look into how they can just live a more comfortable life without
Speaker:having to resort to, oh, I'll need to go to my GP or my
Speaker:doctor. I'll need to go to the library
Speaker:to look up. And maybe we shouldn't suggest self
Speaker:diagnosing on the podcast.
Speaker:No, I would very much advise against that.
Speaker:However, it's something that we would take for granted, someone else may take for
Speaker:granted, just having that simple access to be able to Google or use a
Speaker:search engine of someone's preference to be able to look up information.
Speaker:And it seems like such a simple feature, but actually it's not as easy
Speaker:for everyone to be able to use. But I digress.
Speaker:But I guess if you don't mind, would you mind delving in a little
Speaker:bit more about your experience of repetitive stress injury or strain injury
Speaker:and how it shaped your outlook on digital and assistive technologies?
Speaker:Or how it's even then. I mean, you mentioned slightly already but
Speaker:how it's shaped your career and your goals and objectives.
Speaker:Because it's already changed due to that.
Speaker:Yeah, sure. Like I said,
Speaker:basically having RSI was my gateway into the world of accessibility,
Speaker:and a rather confrontational one at that. First, there was the initial situation
Speaker:where I was unable to do my day to day things that I could
Speaker:previously do, all of those with ease. I had no known disabilities or
Speaker:specific access needs, and all of a sudden they were there!
Speaker:That's one part of the confrontation I've also had to
Speaker:it's a bit of a drive, really, for whatever I was doing with or
Speaker:wanting to do with my IT study to put that to a greater
Speaker:good in general. So I quickly had that realisation that
Speaker:the things that I was building and trying to do, like, and I was
Speaker:trying to do a good thing, but they were already excluding people at the
Speaker:time, including myself. I was practically unable to use whatever
Speaker:I had built at the time. So that's the other confrontational part
Speaker:where, okay, if I'm struggling with this, I'm going to need to change
Speaker:a couple of things to make that happen.
Speaker:So I started exploring the capabilities of what was out there at the time.
Speaker:And it's it like we're we're talking like a good 20 years ago.
Speaker:So things like things like look promising, like I discussed earlier with Dragon, for
Speaker:example, which looked great, and I was like, yes, this will help
Speaker:me finish my education. It looked really promising.
Speaker:But then if the support is not there, it still goes unutilised.
Speaker:As I found my way through learning to live with RSI and recovering some
Speaker:capability this whole new world, as we said, opened up to me,
Speaker:and at the time, I was still very much planning on getting back into
Speaker:web development when I would recover.
Speaker:And we're talking like, the period past my social work study, because I really
Speaker:saw the opportunity of, okay, if I can recover myself, I can start again,
Speaker:creating things that are then no longer excluding people.
Speaker:So I still wanted to get back into web development, which meant I
Speaker:started learning about accessibility and how I could better support it.
Speaker:And I started experimenting with other tools and peripherals,
Speaker:like screen readers and switches, just to be able to see, okay, how can
Speaker:I make this work with what I'm creating?
Speaker:And most people that I meet nowadays, they don't know that I have this
Speaker:condition, and it's still very much something that I deal with every single
Speaker:day. It's always been a weak spot over
Speaker:the past decades, and it'll always remain a weak spot as well.
Speaker:So as a result of it, I have a nerve damage,
Speaker:which runs bilaterally from my neck into both arms.
Speaker:And that means that I have a burning, tingling sensation, pretty much
Speaker:24/7. Sorry?
Speaker:I just said, wow. It's just awful.
Speaker:And you wouldn't like, you'd say it's invisible, you wouldn't know that you're
Speaker:experiencing that.
Speaker:That also was a pretty big revelation for myself.
Speaker:I'm having this I'm having trouble explaining it to people.
Speaker:They don't see it. They don't see the impact of it.
Speaker:I'll get to the impact in a bit, but yeah, it was a very
Speaker:big revelation for me. It's not only people with
Speaker:physical disabilities, there's so many hidden adversities that people struggle
Speaker:with that you might have zero clue about
Speaker:what it currently means, for me, having been quote unquote:
Speaker:"recovered", I'm able to do my work. I work pretty much full time, if
Speaker:not more, and I'm doing well. But there's that ever
Speaker:burning sensation still lingering in my body that if you put a pain
Speaker:scale to it, like a 1 to 10 scale, I'll probably be on a
Speaker:4 on an average day. So that's considered like the low end
Speaker:of moderate pain, which is, not going to lie, pretty annoying still, but
Speaker:you somehow learn to live with it a bit.
Speaker:It's always present, but it's still noticeable even after all those years.
Speaker:And then on a bad day, you'd probably look at like a 6 or
Speaker:so, which means it's really hard for me to ignore and I'll probably start
Speaker:avoiding certain activities and if it gets worse than that, then other people will
Speaker:start to know... I'm pretty transparent in how I feel
Speaker:and what I'm capable of, mostly because I've been burned out
Speaker:twice because of it, like ignoring it and then just chugging along, which
Speaker:doesn't help. So you learn to be honest with
Speaker:yourself, really. But yeah, those bad days.
Speaker:Luckily I've learned a lot about myself and again, we've come a
Speaker:long way in terms of other ways of operating computers.
Speaker:If my keyboard and my mouse are not the tools of the trade for
Speaker:the day, then I can happily switch to an iPad and keep on doing
Speaker:things in a different format, which wasn't possible 20 years ago.
Speaker:Wow. Yeah, and it's, again, these invisible
Speaker:things that we come past every day and you just think, wow, again, you're
Speaker:mentioning we've come a long way. It's a lot better in terms of
Speaker:what is available to you, in terms of different technologies, different tools
Speaker:and sort of features and things that you can use as well.
Speaker:But again, it's, it's fascinating and it's a terrible story,
Speaker:it's horrible to hear that you've had to go through that.
Speaker:So I'm sorry that that's been the case, but you've shown great resolve,
Speaker:obviously, over the last two decades to get to sort of where you are
Speaker:currently in your work. So I'm assuming that has also shaped
Speaker:what you want to do with your career and your own objectives
Speaker:as well?
Speaker:Yeah, it definitely has. It's definitely given me like an open
Speaker:mind about what access needs are and how that differs from
Speaker:person to person. There's no way for me to know
Speaker:what it means for someone else to have a disability.
Speaker:And even then, the experience and the
Speaker:access needs that someone has will differ from the ones I have and from
Speaker:the ones that the next person will have to that point.
Speaker:The concepts of accessibility more so maybe even inclusive design
Speaker:are key ones because you're enabling whatever you're creating for the biggest
Speaker:possible group of people. I think to answer the initial question
Speaker:on how this shaped my career, it's by now pretty clear that
Speaker:without RSI, I'm not even sure I would have ended up in this space
Speaker:and where I am now and doing the enabling work that
Speaker:we're doing so others can benefit from that as well.
Speaker:So I'd probably be on the receiving end of the effort that the industry
Speaker:puts out instead, much like most of our clients are.
Speaker:And that's what pretty much drives me because there's still so many people out
Speaker:there that are unaware of the capabilities they have to make their
Speaker:own products more inclusive. I've learned that the hard way and
Speaker:if I can save someone a little bit of that effort and give them
Speaker:tools and tips to start working on more inclusive products.
Speaker:That's pretty much what drives me, really.
Speaker:And it's almost doubly rewarding. It's rewarding in the sense that you're
Speaker:helping so many hundreds of thousands of people, really, with access to certain
Speaker:clients tools and products and services that they may not have had without
Speaker:your input, but also rewarding for yourself for future reference.
Speaker:And we are an ageing population that are using technology, so everyone's going
Speaker:to have additional needs as they grow older.
Speaker:Again, sorry to hear about your struggles with RSI, but it's great to
Speaker:hear that you've come through the other end and you're still doing some great
Speaker:work and you're turning it into a positive, which is a wonderful thing to
Speaker:see and hear about! when we last met, I spoke about
Speaker:my Impostor syndrome when it comes to this podcast and supporting digital
Speaker:accessibility as someone with no visible or known disabilities or additional needs,
Speaker:"Who is Joe James? Who is this guy putting his voice
Speaker:and thoughts out to the community?" And I think it is a big
Speaker:problem in the industry. I don't know.
Speaker:Have you had any experience of Impostor syndrome?
Speaker:As much as I know that you've had your struggles, but they're not maybe
Speaker:known by many people that you work with?
Speaker:Yeah, impostor Syndrome can be a really difficult thing to deal with.
Speaker:Indeed, I think it's only gotten worse over the
Speaker:past two decades, especially with the rise of social media.
Speaker:It exposes you to so many other people, even in this space, and they
Speaker:do such amazing work day to day that it's often hard.
Speaker:You start comparing and things get
Speaker:difficult. But on the other hand, social media
Speaker:also often has the tendency to highlight, like a very vocal minority.
Speaker:If you're in the algorithm, you're in the algorithm type of deal, maybe.
Speaker:So it's not really uncommon to have thoughts like, right, who am I to
Speaker:even add to this accessibility narrative, really?
Speaker:There's also a bit where I feel people in general, especially online, but
Speaker:also in the accessibility space, sometimes can be harsh or
Speaker:maybe quick to judge.
Speaker:To give an example, I'll reject or advise against the usage of
Speaker:overlays as a solution for web accessibility every single day.
Speaker:But I've also seen people recently get virtually almost condemned because they've
Speaker:made a misinformed, on their end, decision to include one
Speaker:and posted about it in a way like: "This is what we're doing to
Speaker:help accessibility!" and then people like cracking down on
Speaker:it in a very harsh way because
Speaker:we're in this space, because we are passionate about it and we want the
Speaker:solutions to be the right ones. But
Speaker:it makes me really sad if we then crack down on someone because they've
Speaker:made a misinformed decision. It's not really helping in a positive
Speaker:way, and it reinforces that feeling of Imposter Syndrome that it gives you, what
Speaker:if I make a mistake, right? What if I accidentally advise someone
Speaker:incorrectly or I give them an advice and I
Speaker:totally, in the moment, forgot about the other accessibility challenge that
Speaker:solution might impose. Now, one problem is solved, but they
Speaker:now have another problem to deal with, and then getting cracked down on that.
Speaker:I think it's good to remember that, even for yourself.
Speaker:Joe, you're someone wearing glasses, and like we discussed last time, you need
Speaker:them to be able to do your day to day living, which means you
Speaker:already represent two thirds of the population.
Speaker:Everyone's likely to need, the majority of people is likely to need glasses somewhere
Speaker:during their life. And the precise need might differ
Speaker:farsightedness or short sightedness or astigmatism.
Speaker:Nobody can tell what kind of glasses you're wearing from the outside.
Speaker:Well I feel a lot less lonely!
Speaker:you should definitely yeah. And the same goes for myself.
Speaker:Like, people that meet me for the first time, I'm almost two metres tall
Speaker:and I'm pretty big. They see a tall, wide, Dutch, giant...
Speaker:But they know nothing about my daily struggles that we've talked about.
Speaker:So I really feel that someone's deeds will show their intent.
Speaker:And if your words or your actions reach someone that others haven't reached,
Speaker:then that's a win in my book. That's someone else that is now more
Speaker:aware of accessibility and the need for inclusive design.
Speaker:That's one more than we had yesterday.
Speaker:Yeah. So it's the intent behind what we're
Speaker:doing. Like you said about the overlays, someone
Speaker:has tried their best. They've got some very good salespeople
Speaker:that are promoting the use of overlays on people's websites, because it seems
Speaker:like a 'one size fits all' solution to make your website accessible to those
Speaker:with any additional needs. But, as we know, it can actually
Speaker:impede progress, it stops the usage and it can actually create more issues for
Speaker:people with disabilities or additional needs.
Speaker:If we approach those people because of their intent and all of their actions,
Speaker:that would be a positive interaction.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Which, in my eyes, is one of the ways of combating imposter syndrome.
Speaker:Brilliant. And that's good to know.
Speaker:And it's just yeah, I suppose we can only do what we, what
Speaker:we can, and hope for the best as well!
Speaker:and I just hope that this kind of podcast, this content, is just going
Speaker:to do the thing that I intend it to do and that's raise awareness.
Speaker:I just want people to know and be talking a bit more about accessibility
Speaker:and what we can be doing. So, brilliant!
Speaker:As we all know by now, I work as a recruitment consultant in the
Speaker:digital technology development and obviously accessibility space.
Speaker:So some of our listeners are those aspiring designers, developers and
Speaker:engineers. Could you give us an insight
Speaker:into what an average day or, a day probably isn't enough, so maybe a
Speaker:week? What that entails for you as the
Speaker:Head of Accessibility at Nomensa? And who are the key sort of
Speaker:people that you would interact with on a daily basis?
Speaker:Yeah, I think I can run you through that.
Speaker:It's probably more meetings than I'd like to be, than I'd like it to
Speaker:be, to be honest. But in all serious, as
Speaker:Head of Accessibility, I have a couple of responsibilities:
Speaker:There's of course a series of internal meetings around things like scheduling,
Speaker:basically making sure that our team has all of the time and the resources
Speaker:they need to deliver excellent work. So there's some internal logistics going
Speaker:on there. I also join in on a lot
Speaker:of our initial sales conversations with current and potential clients,
Speaker:helping to outline, of course, our services and determining how best we can
Speaker:support them on their accessibility journey.
Speaker:Luckily I also get to still work with some of our own amazing clients actively
Speaker:as a practitioner. And that pretty much ranges across all
Speaker:of our services. So it could be doing an audit.
Speaker:I have a couple of training sessions coming up this week as we talked about
Speaker:pre-show, which I'm currently doing prep for, could be general
Speaker:consultancy type things where we just have an hour long session with a client
Speaker:and they bring whatever they're currently struggling with to the table, which to
Speaker:me are the most fun because it's on the spot, thinking and interacting and
Speaker:collaboratively coming up with a solution with a client, instead of just
telling them:This is how you should do it.
telling them:I'm very much like a progress over perfection type of guy, so I'd rather
telling them:see we make small steps to improve than try and solve a problem in
telling them:one go. So, yeah, it's anything really to help
telling them:solidify our clients knowledge within their teams.
telling them:For me, the goal is always to like I said, it's their accessibility
telling them:journey. So it's about me or our team
telling them:rather helping them along the way to self sufficiently be able to
telling them:make the correct steps. Which also means that we can
telling them:build more awareness and accessibility capability with hopefully another client,
telling them:while confidently, like taking the wheels off
telling them:with a current client, take.
telling them:The training wheels off, let them go on their own and see if hopefully
telling them:they stay up on two wheels. Brilliant!
telling them:And I guess you would therefore be interacting with all manner of roles.
telling them:I suppose developers that are struggling to understand what they need to
telling them:change within their code examples, you'd have designers at the initial stage where
telling them:I guess you would hope the conversation is starting when it comes to accessibility
telling them:or inclusive design and even, I suppose through to testers or maybe
telling them:even risk managers and those in compliance.
telling them:Is it across the board?
telling them:Basically, it's pretty much across the board.
telling them:Like you said, it's developers testers QA, but also
telling them:raising awareness with SLT or C-Suite departments.
telling them:Because in the end I very much believe that you need a two-pinch
telling them:manoeuvre, like a two way approach. You need both a top down support
telling them:and you need a bottom up foundation to properly implement
telling them:a well rounded accessibility programme. I'm pretty much chatting
telling them:to anyone I can speak to, really.
telling them:Anyone that will listen, which is good.
telling them:Anyone that will listen, yes.
telling them:And I think it's important, like you said, to attack it from all angles.
telling them:And then I suppose you have the top down approach for decision makers,
telling them:because they need to be aware that this is something that's actually going to
telling them:benefit overall and they will be the ones that say yes or no to
telling them:any changes you're hoping to implement or advise upon.
telling them:So, very interesting stuff. I'm sure you've had some challenging
telling them:conversations in your day to day work as well.
telling them:They can be challenging, yes. But they can also be really
telling them:engaged. People often
telling them:think that, yes, of course, it's also about the money, always,
telling them:because it's a business. Right, it makes sense.
telling them:But at least the clients that we work with, which,
telling them:I don't know, probably won't go for every client, but the clients that we
telling them:work with are all very much engaged and invested in wanting to
telling them:better their product for a wider group of people.
telling them:And it's not only the wider group of people, but it's providing a better
telling them:experience for all of their clients,
telling them:which they are more than keen to explore
telling them:avenues once you put in, not sure if
telling them:framing is the correct word, but yeah, it's about painting the right picture.
telling them:Yeah, definitely. At least giving that, planting that seed,
telling them:and then they can hopefully make some more informed decisions themselves as
telling them:well. Isn't it? Excellent,
telling them:Good stuff. And so you gave a talk, a
telling them:great talk, recently on the global regulations in place for digital
telling them:accessibility. Don't worry, I'm not going to ask
telling them:you to do the whole thing again, just for our audience.
telling them:But I wanted to touch on that point in general, though, because seeing
telling them:as today is Global Accessibility Awareness Day and there are so many companies,
telling them:speakers and advocates sharing advice and tips on how to gain buy-in
telling them:for accessibility. Unfortunately, one tactic that has always
telling them:been useful, I wouldn't say successful, but across most sectors is the kind of
telling them:'scare tactics' or always pushing on the risks that are involved.
telling them:So, on that point, do you feel that the current regulations across the
telling them:globe or the penalties that are in place are justified, or are they strict
telling them:enough to build that buy in from business decision makers, like we were
telling them:just discussing? Do you think you can scare people
telling them:into change?
telling them:Not a really cookie cutter answer there to that question.
telling them:In the webinar, I dealt with the EU part of things, the UK and
telling them:the US, which it's our three main markets,
telling them:but it heavily depends on which market a company operates in. In the
telling them:US, as most people that have been in the accessibility space for a while
telling them:probably know. But it's a big, if not the
telling them:biggest, driver, because the risk of getting sued is far bigger and
telling them:the costs involved quickly amount to a rather substantial
telling them:sum of figures, both in direct legal fees, mostly the settlement fees
telling them:are lacklustre at best, but all of the surrounding legal
telling them:fees is what really drives the bill up.
telling them:But there's also all of the resulting reputational damage that a lawsuit brings
telling them:with it. No company wants to be in the
telling them:national newspapers because they've been sued, because their website isn't
telling them:accessible. There might, however, be
telling them:a change coming. We've seen over the past
telling them:years, like several thousand lawsuits being filed every year
telling them:by what are so called serial filers, which are plaintiffs that file multiple
telling them:lawsuits in a certain period of time. And it looks like that it's going
telling them:to be less effective. They might have the chance that their
telling them:cases get approved for court, might drop, because they are serial filers.
telling them:They are what the court is deeming like "testers for accessibility" and they
telling them:are debating whether that person would actually be a potential customer, which
telling them:is one of the more baseline requirements. Like: "are you just
telling them:trying to get something going here? Or were you actually trying to order
telling them:something?", for example. So there might be a bit of
telling them:a shift there. It''ll be interesting to see how that changes
telling them:over the coming months or years. It's for sure an interesting change to
telling them:keep ourselves informed of. In the UK and the EU markets,
telling them:though, the chances of getting sued are extremely low.
telling them:There's just differences in legal systems and someone needs to go through multiple
telling them:steps before a case even goes to court.
telling them:In the UK, there have been court cases, or at least there's been cases
telling them:filed. To my knowledge, they've all been settled
telling them:outside of court, no figures, they're all settled behind
telling them:closed doors. But I know the Royal National Institute
telling them:of the Blind [RNIB] was involved with a couple of those.
telling them:But yeah, before you get there, you need to start filing formal complaints and
telling them:start to get a conversation going with a supplier to actively sort it out
telling them:before they would probably actively say, no, we don't want to make this
telling them:accessible for you before you get to a certain point.
telling them:Okay, I have something, I feel discriminated and I can go to court.
telling them:There's the EU Accessibility Act coming up, which allows people to start filing
telling them:cases with their national courts probably more easily, but I don't see it
telling them:changing massively because the same steps of approaching a supplier and starting to
telling them:work with them and then the situation would need to come to a halt
telling them:before you would be able to still progress.
telling them:It is still like, the perspective itself. The legal perspective is still a good
telling them:topic of conversation, especially with senior leadership teams.
telling them:As it is, it's also their responsibility to comply with the law.
telling them:So even though the chance of a lawsuit is rather slim, again,
telling them:reputational damage is always something they are cautioned about
telling them:because those things are their responsibility
telling them:as well. It is definitely a topic I bring
telling them:up in awareness conversations as a bit of a starter, really,
telling them:because once you've laid it out like that, there's other, in my opinion, better
telling them:foundations to continue the conversation afterwards, including just making a
telling them:better product.
telling them:Definitely, yeah. And I think I was speaking to
telling them:someone else recently, I think it may have been I don't want to say
telling them:names, actually. There was someone I was speaking to
telling them:that previously worked in the public sector for the Home Office or one
telling them:of the government bodies in the UK. And he was mentioning that the way
telling them:that it is in the UK. At least, is that you would give
telling them:formal warning to said company or public sector and they would have sort of
telling them:three months for them to be able to sort of come to a solution,
telling them:go back to the user or whoever's made a complaint and say, we've tried
telling them:this. Does this make it better for you?
telling them:So there's an awful lot of time for people to be able to go,
telling them:oh, actually, we should do something about this, rather than, right, you go to
telling them:court next week, so you need to buck your ideas up and have someone
telling them:that's able to make this change immediately.
telling them:So, yeah, I suppose, like you say, it's a good conversation starter.
telling them:No one wants to go to market and go, hey, look, we had all
telling them:these complaints from people that can't use our product.
telling them:Do you want to buy it? That's probably the better way to phrase
telling them:it, I suppose. Yeah.
telling them:So it's an interesting thing, isn't it? But it's across both I think you've
telling them:mentioned public and private sector as well.
telling them:Private sector is, of course, a bit more regulated in that sense.
telling them:Like, there's formal laws that they need to comply with and those are actively
telling them:being monitored, although I have some opinions about the monitoring system
telling them:across both the UK and the EU market.
telling them:But in general, it helped improve accessibility for
telling them:residents to be able to use government services.
telling them:Going in the right direction. Just slowly, slowly.
telling them:And I still feel like it's very much
telling them:a tick box exercise for quite a lot of
telling them:organisations still, even in the public sector.
telling them:Okay, we've done this and now we need to they have a lot of
telling them:responsibilities, I get that, balancing priorities, but we are moving
telling them:forward. That's a good thing.
telling them:Yeah. Take the small wins, I suppose.
telling them:That's what we need to do. And keep driving.
telling them:Progress over perfection.
telling them:There you go. Exactly.
telling them:But brilliant. That brings me on to a final
telling them:question, and it's probably quite an ambiguous one, so don't feel too much
telling them:pressure. But the final question I'm asking on
telling them:each episode of the podcast is, what do you personally feel is one of
telling them:the simplest, most cost effective and convenient ways that anyone can implement
telling them:more digital accessibility within their line of work or their daily lives?
telling them:If you're interested in accessibility and you're
telling them:the individual, start talking about the topic with colleagues.
telling them:Get that conversation going, realise
telling them:that accessibility in itself never sits with a single point in the process.
telling them:So everyone can play their part. Everyone can improve accessibility and
telling them:inclusion in your product. That could be your code developer or
telling them:the designer that you're having a chat with, or the user researcher.
telling them:Everyone can do this. If you're a researcher, include people
telling them:with access needs in your user
telling them:base. If you're a designer, like, think of
telling them:different interaction types. Start annotating your designs with
telling them:accessibility requirements so a developer won't go asking for them, but
telling them:already knows, like, okay, this is component "X" and I need to take
telling them:these considerations into account when I start implementing it.
telling them:On the other side, if you're a dev with an accessibility passion, ask for
telling them:those annotations. Make sure that you get delivered what
telling them:you need, clearing up
telling them:any uncertainty on how a component should operate, like, what kind of functionality
telling them:should you implement? And then you can start thinking, if
telling them:I need to implement it in this way, then I need to account for
telling them:XYZ. When it comes to accessibility, it's
telling them:really about collaboration in that sense. Other things, like just stick to
telling them:standards, use proper HTML because you get a lot of accessibility for free that
telling them:way. If you're on the business side, say
telling them:you're dealing with procurement, start including questions on accessibility
telling them:whenever you procure a new product. And don't be afraid to either
telling them:ask, settle for the initial answers, because if you ask, do you know
telling them:how to do accessibility? Like, a company that replies to your
telling them:bid will always say yes. So always dive deeper into give examples.
telling them:Show me why you're good at this. If you can, ask
telling them:for an audit report from the supplier, so you don't have to pay one
telling them:for yourself once you've procured it, because then you're stuck with a product
telling them:which is likely inaccessible. I'm secretly hoping that the VPAT, the
telling them:Voluntary Product Accessibility template, gets more traction in the UK and
telling them:the EU from suppliers. That's a document that outlines all of
telling them:the accessibility features and limitations of a product.
telling them:So, you as a buyer then should be fully informed.
telling them:Okay, this is the current state and you can make an informed decision based
telling them:on that. In the end, everyone can make a
telling them:big impact. Just take small steps.
telling them:Brilliant, Progress, not perfection. There we go.
telling them:Just to touch on that as well. It's something that we've had to do
telling them:relatively recently. So PCR Digital completely revamped and
telling them:redesigned and developed our website to ensure that we are practising what we
telling them:preach. I specialise in digital accessibility
telling them:recruitment, so having a website that may not have been fully accessible to some
telling them:people wouldn't make sense. It would look awful.
telling them:So we went out to suppliers, we went to web development agencies and we
telling them:interviewed each of them and asked them those specific questions.
telling them:And like you say, everyone will say, yes, we've done that before.
telling them:Of course we have. Yeah, it's fine.
telling them:Buy our product, but we delved in a little deeper.
telling them:It helped that I knew the fundamentals what to ask.
telling them:So I completely agree and I think, yeah, just talking about it is what
telling them:I'm trying to do. And obviously, as people probably know by
telling them:now, I like to talk.
telling them:It's a good thing. That helps!
telling them:Yeah, but final thoughts, I guess just take some time to share anything of
telling them:real importance to you at the moment, either within accessibility or something
telling them:in your own personal life.
telling them:I think I'll just reiterate what I just said.
telling them:I think I see a lot of people in our space getting like the
telling them:accessibility space getting getting burned out because they're not just seeing enough
telling them:progress. People like we we set this and
telling them:when talking about social media, but we're all fighters, we all want to see
telling them:things change and we want to see change quicker.
telling them:But we need to keep in mind that every step taken, like every person
telling them:you talk to that did not know about accessibility yesterday and you've
telling them:spoken to them today, he now does, and that is still progress.
telling them:It's difficult, I'll be honest, to keep that mindset going,
telling them:especially if you've been in a space or you see hard work that you've
telling them:done over the years be torn down in a matter of months with a
telling them:reorganisation or it can be a very big struggle,
telling them:but every step is progress.
telling them:Amazing. Perfect.
telling them:I was going to finish with the quote and I'll probably mention it because
telling them:it touches on something you said, but I love that and I might even
telling them:quote you in future episodes to say Ronny Hendrix once said; every step is
telling them:still progress, so you will be I've.
telling them:Definitely not come up with that one.
telling them:Well, it's a great line, so I'll definitely be using it somewhere.
telling them:But so one of the quotes that I've sort of come across in my
telling them:own line of work, working with certain companies for their recruitment needs, it
telling them:was Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple once upon a Time said that:
telling them:"Accessibility is not a feature, it's a mindset."
telling them:Which I think reinforces a lot of what we've discussed today, that it's for
telling them:and about everyone, not just those who we perceive to have disabilities, but we
telling them:really need to think about what we're doing for our users, and that's everyone.
telling them:And that way we could just drive growth and innovation by including
telling them:everyone and allowing them barrier free access to products, services and
telling them:technologies that we create. Thank you so much again, Ronny. "It's an absolute pleasure". For
telling them:joining me on the episode today. It's always great speaking with you and
telling them:I've gained a little bit more knowledge and hopefully everyone else listening will
telling them:do too. Thank you also for the incredible work
telling them:that you're doing with Nomensa and in the space.
telling them:There's a lot of people out there that are aware of you and your
telling them:ambitions and goals and hopefully they'll reach out to you directly if they've
telling them:got any questions or need a nudge in the right direction, I'm sure you'd
telling them:be happy.
telling them:I think the best place would be LinkedIn.
telling them:Honestly, I have a Twitter account but I've properly stepped away from most
telling them:social media. LinkedIn will be the easiest way to
telling them:reach me, but yeah, by all means reach out.
telling them:Always happy to chat and help people along the way.
telling them:Brilliant. Thank you so much again, Ronny.
telling them:And yeah, I'll share any links to any sites and resources that we've
telling them:discussed today in the episode, along with along with the link to this.
telling them:I look forward to staying in touch with you as well moving forward, but
telling them:thanks again. Been a pleasure.
telling them:Likewise. See you around.
telling them:Thank you once again to Ronny and Nomensa for joining us on this
telling them:episode today. I hope that Ronny's stories provided some
telling them:insight into how everyone's story is different when it comes to digital
telling them:accessibility and working within this space.
telling them:If you also suffer with RSI or Impostor Syndrome, or have been affected
telling them:in similar ways to Ronny or myself, please reach out as we'd be more
telling them:than happy to help wherever we can. You can reach Ronny on LinkedIn, just
telling them:search for "Ronny Hendriks" or click on the profile link that I'll provide within
telling them:this episode to connect with him. As a reminder, PCR Digital provide bespoke
telling them:recruitment and resourcing solutions for clients large and small.
telling them:We've helped to fill difficult positions with permanent staff and contractors in
telling them:the tech space, including iOS, macOS and Android developers, accessibility
telling them:professionals at all levels, software engineers and developers, project and
telling them:programme managers, business analysts, IT support professionals, content designers
telling them:and managers, as well as testers and technical analysts. If you'd like to hear more.
telling them:About our services and how we can.
telling them:Help take the stress of recruitment and resourcing away from you, just get in
telling them:touch via the links provided, visit us at: PCRDigital.com or call the office on:
telling them:0207-479-7980. Thanks again for listening and I'll
